Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

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How many WE units can get the same Enchanted arrows?

Only one unit can get a specific set of enchanted arrows.
4
13%
There is no limit on how many different units may take the same enchanted arrows.
26
87%
 
Total votes: 30

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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Gidean »

Dalamar wrote:
As for the poll, it really doesn't matter how people play in their clubs, personally I don't care if my opponent weakens his list by spamming one type of arrow (please please arcane bodkins) but rules are rules and allowing multiple units to take the same arrow is, let's call it by the proper name, a house rule.


The Poll had nothing to do with how people play it in their club. It asked how we interpret the written rules. Grrrrr! !mad! Why do I keep letting you drag me back into this silly debate! :badh: And you were the one that wanted a list full of two arrow types. True flight and I don't even remember the other one now. I don't even play Wood Elves and have no intention of doing so. So whatever advantage they get will just be an additional challenge to my armies.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Dalamar »

Yeah, trueflight and hagbane, one per unit of Glade Guard. Maybe a character with starfire to kill regen. That's hardly a list full, that's two units and a character with three different arrow types.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Calisson »

Gidean wrote:the poll is 17-3 that they are allowed to take the same arrow type multiple times.
That's a general opinion which is being expressed.
Good to know and it must be taken into consideration.

So after 3 pages of debate, i.e. much less - yet - than what I have seen in several other websites, we have reached the same conclusions than in other websites:
- RAW: duplication of same enchanted arrows to several units is not supported by rules, as a comprehensive rule analysis can only conclude.
- Alleged RAI: duplication of same enchanted arrows to several units is permitted, as a widely spread opinion supports with heated argument.
- There is no consensus between the tenants of the two approaches.

Chances to get an FAQ any soon seem to be remote.

I would recommend
- WE casual players to make sure beforehand that their loose interpretation is accepted by their opponent,
- tourney organizers to issue their own FAQ,
- and Asrai.org to propose a Asrai.org FAQ, as we did with our D.net FAQ.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Haagrum »

As a side issue, assuming the enchanted arrows qualify as Enchanted Items - how will a unit carrying these arrows (any type) be affected if Arcane Unforging is successfully cast on the unit?

On the main topic - I'm sorry, Calisson, but I take some exception to the assertion that this is entirely a rules-vs-opinions matter. I see the question as being entirely analogous to the Weeping Blades/Warlock-Augmented Weapons situation from the Skaven army list, which has been resolved in favour of multiple models being able to take the same magic items where they are listed as a unit upgrade without a specific prohibition on duplication across units. The Skaven army book allows Gutter Runner champions and Warlock Engineers to take Weeping Blades/Smoke Bombs and Warlock-Augmented Weapons, respectively. These items are listed as magic items in the relevant section of the Skaven army book.

Page 3 of the Skaven FAQ sorts this out fairly concisely.

The Gutter Runner Champions' situation is precisely the same as Wood Elf units with access to enchanted arrows - they are unit upgrades which are also magic items (specifically, a Magic Weapon and an Enchanted Item). Gutter Runner Champions can take either or both of the magic items listed. There is no limitation of only one Gutter Runner Champions being allowed to take either item. However, a single Gutter Runner Champion may not take multiples of either item. The FAQ is unequivocal on that point.

For this reason, the RAI side of the argument seems more compelling (and I consider that it is a true argument, not merely an opinion asserted without analysis of the rules). Precisely the same situation has arisen before, and has been resolved in the favour of duplicates across the list.

That said, I suppose there are two ways to interpret this as a precedent in relation to Wood Elf arrows:
1. RAI - The FAQ demonstrates the intended operation of the rules. Matt Ward should lrn2readFAQ, but the situation is entirely analogous to the Skaven examples, and the correct resolution is clear from the Skaven book and Skaven FAQ. If only one unit could take each type of arrow, this would be clear in the Wood Elf army list entries.
2. RAW - Matt Ward could've said this in as many words if he'd intended it that way. The fact that he did not means that duplicates are not allowed, as per the BRB rules.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Gidean »

Calisson wrote:
Gidean wrote:the poll is 17-3 that they are allowed to take the same arrow type multiple times.
That's a general opinion which is being expressed.
Good to know and it must be taken into consideration.

So after 3 pages of debate, i.e. much less - yet - than what I have seen in several other websites, we have reached the same conclusions than in other websites:
- RAW: duplication of same enchanted arrows to several units is not supported by rules, as a comprehensive rule analysis can only conclude.


No we have NOT reached the same conclusion. The 17 of us that voted it is possible are saying you are reading the rule wrong. We believe RAW allows for duplication of the arrows. :badh:
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Haagrum »

Gidean wrote:
Calisson wrote:
Gidean wrote:the poll is 17-3 that they are allowed to take the same arrow type multiple times.
That's a general opinion which is being expressed.
Good to know and it must be taken into consideration.

So after 3 pages of debate, i.e. much less - yet - than what I have seen in several other websites, we have reached the same conclusions than in other websites:
- RAW: duplication of same enchanted arrows to several units is not supported by rules, as a comprehensive rule analysis can only conclude.


No we have NOT reached the same conclusion. The 17 of us that voted it is possible are saying you are reading the rule wrong. We believe RAW allows for duplication of the arrows. :badh:


Gidean, I believe the point was that D.net members have reached one or the other of the listed conclusions, and that there appears to be an irreconcilable gulf between the two views, not that we have all agreed.

Otherwise, Calisson would not have added "There is no consensus between the tenants of the two approaches."

In the end, it appears that the only agreed-upon position (and apologies, Calisson, if I'm putting words in your mouth) is "Ask your opponent or the TO which approach should be used and prepare accordingly."
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Amboadine »

Haagrum wrote:In the end, it appears that the only agreed-upon position (and apologies, Calisson, if I'm putting words in your mouth) is "Ask your opponent or the TO which approach should be used and prepare accordingly."


Pretty much where I stand at the moment, I have my opinion and can understand the arguments for and against but I am not going to start a game arguing the point, would rather just have a friendly game, and in tourneys I would expect the matter to already have been settled.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Gidean »

Haagrum wrote:
Gidean, I believe the point was that D.net members have reached one or the other of the listed conclusions, and that there appears to be an irreconcilable gulf between the two views, not that we have all agreed.




That is not how I read what he wrote. He essentially said 'no duplication' is the only conclusion with a detailed rule analysis and all other interpretations were opinion. But that's cool. That is HIS opinion. I read the rule plain and simple and see no restriction to arming multiple units with the same arrows.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Dalamar »

Bringing up skaven FAQ is a very very bad idea. We attempted to use it as reference forbsimilar questions for ourndruchii.nnet FAQ. After a while we realized that referencing an outdated FAQ for an old book gives no benefif.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Clockwork »

Gidean wrote:
Haagrum wrote:
Gidean, I believe the point was that D.net members have reached one or the other of the listed conclusions, and that there appears to be an irreconcilable gulf between the two views, not that we have all agreed.




That is not how I read what he wrote. He essentially said 'no duplication' is the only conclusion with a detailed rule analysis and all other interpretations were opinion. But that's cool. That is HIS opinion. I read the rule plain and simple and see no restriction to arming multiple units with the same arrows.


But there's no permission to do so, either, and the ruling of Enchanted Items is quite clear that there can only be one per army. There's an exception for a unit to have the same arrow and an exception for a hero to take an additional Enchanted Item (but not another arrow), but no exception to the one per army rule. I can't see how you are getting around that without ignoring the BRB.

I admit that I tend to believe that it was probably intended for there to be multiples, else I think that it would have been specific, but in the absence of a specific one way or another we default to BRB rule.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Haagrum »

Dalamar wrote:Bringing up skaven FAQ is a very very bad idea. We attempted to use it as reference forbsimilar questions for ourndruchii.nnet FAQ. After a while we realized that referencing an outdated FAQ for an old book gives no benefif.


Forgive me for sounding impertinent, but it is an errata resolution of precisely the same circumstances that exist here which resolves in favour of duplicate availability. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing else precisely on point to provide such guidance.

Dismissing it simply because it's from an older book would only make sense if previous editions allowed multiple copies of the same magic items to be taken (which, aside from Dispel Scrolls, hasn't been the case for several editions). That position in the FAQ has remained the same despite the transition from 7th to 8th edition. Unless there's some reason to show why it's plainly wrong, why should we assume that we should depart from it?
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by General Kael »

I think Calisson mentioned this already as an argument against duplication, but I don't see it as so clear. At the beginning of the magic items section of the rule book under the section about duplication it states: "Magic items are considered to be unique — you can only have one of each in your army unless otherwise stated in the magic item's rules."

Now I think you could go two ways interpreting this statement. Maybe it means that only one unit of wood elves can take the same magic arrow, or that because multiple guys have the arrow in that unit that it is clearly an exception to the duplication rule.

So when they say only one per army do they mean only one unit or one model can have it? That's the only qualm I have regarding the rule.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Dalamar »

Mainly because the Skaven FAQ isn't helping wood elves trying to get same arrows on different units.

Skaven FAQ specifically allows some certain specific models to duplicate magic items. Before the FAQ it was impossible.

Which means Wood Elves need to either:
1) Play by the rules as they are and hope that FAQ will change them
2) House Rule it "because skaven were in similar situation and they have an FAQ"
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Haagrum wrote:Page 3 of the Skaven FAQ sorts this out fairly concisely.

The Gutter Runner Champions' situation is precisely the same as Wood Elf units with access to enchanted arrows - they are unit upgrades which are also magic items (specifically, a Magic Weapon and an Enchanted Item). Gutter Runner Champions can take either or both of the magic items listed. There is no limitation of only one Gutter Runner Champions being allowed to take either item. However, a single Gutter Runner Champion may not take multiples of either item. The FAQ is unequivocal on that point.


Her's the thing -- the Skaven FAQ does net help you. It's not an FAQ that allows Gutter Runner champs to duplicate magic items. It's an errata that does it. An actual change to the rules.

Regarding Weeping Blades, it says "Add 'Any number of Gutter Runner Champions in an army may take this item, but none may take it more than once.'" and there is similar language regarding Smoke Bombs and Warp Augmented Weapons. The fact that language was added to allow duplication of these items simply reinforces the fact that if other Magic Items are to be duplicated, they need similar explicit permission--and none is given for the Arrows.

In fact, an FAQ response on page 5 of the Skaven document hammers this home:

Q: Can you take more than one Vermin Lord in an army? If you can, will they both have a Doom Glaive magic weapon? (p40)
A: Yes to both questions. Whilst you can only opt to take each magic item once, where it is a standard piece of equipment it can be duplicated.

As this FAQ response reiterates, "you can only opt to take each magic item once." This is a general rule applicable unless there is an exception. This FAQ creates or finds an exception based on the fact that a Vermin Lord has no choice in its equipment--the Doom Glaive comes standard. In contrast, the Arrows don't come standard. They are optional--and "you can only opt to take each magic item once."



I still have yet to see an argument in support of duplicating arrows that is based on actual rules. All the arguments I have seen are based on perceived intent and wishful thinking rather than what the rules actually say. The fact that some items have specific exceptions that allowing them to be chosen more than once does support taking multiples of other items.

I think I am going to start taking Banner of Swiftness on all my units so I can get extra movement across the board.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Haagrum »

Dyvim tvar wrote:Her's the thing -- the Skaven FAQ does net help you. It's not an FAQ that allows Gutter Runner champs to duplicate magic items. It's an errata that does it. An actual change to the rules.

Regarding Weeping Blades, it says "Add 'Any number of Gutter Runner Champions in an army may take this item, but none may take it more than once.'" and there is similar language regarding Smoke Bombs and Warp Augmented Weapons. The fact that language was added to allow duplication of these items simply reinforces the fact that if other Magic Items are to be duplicated, they need similar explicit permission--and none is given for the Arrows.


I appreciate your take on this point, but the errata reads like a clarification rather than an outright change of the rules. Every such model can take such items, but not duplicates on the same model. I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

In relation to the "standard equipment" argument - there's no definition of "standard equipment", is there? Other than suggesting that it's what appears in the army list entry for a given model type, that is - a narrower definition would mean that unit equipment options are not "standard equipment", begging the question of what exactly they are. It could just as easily be contended that Wood Elf units have access to these arrows as part of their "standard equipment". In terms of their presentation in the army book, it's no different to taking lances or ensorcelled weapons for Chaos Knights, or shields or repeater crossbows for a unit of Dark Riders. There's no explicit indication at that point that only one unit may have each type of enchanted arrows. Certainly, the Gutter Runner champions and Warlock Engineers have access to these items as standard equipment, and given its presentation, the Warlock-Augmented Weapon's cost clearly wouldn't come out of the Warlock Engineer's magic items allowance.

It seems there are two ways to take this wording - that the absence of an express permission means no duplication, or that the availability of a magic item in a model's standard equipment options (where that model could be replicated across a single army) would not be included without limitations unless it was intended that duplication could occur. Either way, asserting the Vermin Lord FAQ comment does not really get us any closer to the answer than a reliance on the BRB.

Dyvim tvar wrote:I still have yet to see an argument in support of duplicating arrows that is based on actual rules. All the arguments I have seen are based on perceived intent and wishful thinking rather than what the rules actually say. The fact that some items have specific exceptions that allowing them to be chosen more than once does support taking multiples of other items.


I presume you meant to say "does not support". This argument was based on reasoning by analogy from an identical situation in another army book, where I'm sure similar arguments were put, and where the ultimate resolution was to errata the book to make it work as intended with no further ambiguity. Rules should apply consistently across similar situations. Resolving this question without regard to that prior solution introduces inconsistency in the handling of identical situations.

I appreciate that people have strong views on the point, that there are arguments on each side, and that there's been more heat than light in this discussion. That said, I cannot understand dismissing an argument because it's not strict RAW when there's precedent for interpreting similar situations in a particular manner.

I realise that no-one's going to be convinced either way if they haven't been already, and that we'll just have to agree with our opponents on how Wood Elves may take enchanted arrows until an FAQ is handed down, so I'll leave this matter here.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Calisson »

Wow! Thank all the D.netters who take my word as an important one. :oops:

-=-=-
Short story:
"The entire unit may take one of the following types of enchanted arrows:"
RAW tenants say it make an exemption to the non-duplication rule, within a single unit.
"RAI" tenants say it cancels that rule altogether for that objects.

-=-=-

What I see is an opposition between a minority, on one side, with a rigourous reading of rules, vs all others (20 at present), with a relaxed reading of rules.
The opposition is about method, nothing else. Different method leads to different conclusion, and I trust all participants in the present discussion to be honest in what they say and not wanting to gain any undue advantage as potential WE players or opponent.
But using different method does lead to different conclusion.


I'm quite used to read Dyvym and Dalamar arguments about rules, and I have a similar approach. We try to read what words tell exactly, no more, no less, before we start interpretation.
I'm quite confident that when the three of us reach the same conclusion about a point of rule, this is what rule actually say. But 'what they' say is not necessarily 'what they mean'.
What rules say does not allow duplication to several units: I've seen rules telling so, and I've seen no rule quote telling otherwise. 17 people may be convinced that unlimited duplication is possible, but they did fail to argue with valid RAW arguments, not because they lack material, but because the material they use is not as strong as a rule plainly written.

As far as I could understand it, the tenants of the 'duplication' side had a first reading of the rules, did consider that it could allow duplication, and tried to find support to that belief.
I may have caricatured that way of understanding rules as "RAI", and people who reached that conclusion may not recognize themselves in my caricature. Apologize if that is the case.

By the way, there have been quite a few cases when GW had to issue one or even two FAQs before their intention matched the rules as amended.
It has been the case for Dark Elves 7th ed "null shards", which were magic items allowing duplication, where the initial writing seemed to support unlimited duplication until an FAQ restricted to a limitation within a single unit (i.e. one unit could take as many null shards as it could afford, but then no other unit could).

@ Gidean
I do say and maintain, as you say, that 'no duplication' is the only conclusion with a detailed rule analysis and all other interpretations were opinion. And that's my 'opinion' indeed.
As I said above, that's a different methodology. A detailed and rigourous rule analysis can only conclude with 'no duplication'.
But I don't say that a detailed and rigourous rule analysis is the only way to play, otherwise I would not back up D.net's onw FAQ, which sometimes departs from the strictest rule analysis.
What I mean & belive is that a rules discussion should start with a rigourous rule analysis. Then the next step is to build on this rules analysis and decide whether it is reasonable (i.e. whether RAI would be a better way to play).

@ Haagrum: "the only agreed-upon position (and apologies, Calisson, if I'm putting words in your mouth) is "Ask your opponent or the TO which approach should be used and prepare accordingly."" Maybe I did not say that exactly , but you managed to express exactly what I meant. :D


@ all
This thread reached its intent, which is to show that this point of rule is not consensual.
If you play against someone who is bickering with rules, then chances are that he would resent unlimited ducplication of a specific Enchanted arrow.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Haagrum wrote:I appreciate your take on this point, but the errata reads like a clarification rather than an outright change of the rules.


It doesn't matter how you want to characterize it. The fact remains that there is no similar language with respect to the Wood Elf Arrows.

Haagrum wrote:In relation to the "standard equipment" argument - there's no definition of "standard equipment", is there?


It's not a term that needs a game-specific definition. GW expects us all to be able to understand English. Not every word in the book needs to be defined for us.

I speak English -- know what it "standard equipment" means.

You speak English -- you know what "standard equipment" means.

I suspect that if you went out to buy a car, you would know without being told by the salesperson that the "standard equipment" is just that--the equipment that comes standard. The stuff you don't choose, but that comes standard. In contrast, there is the optional equipment that doesn't come standard and that you have to pay for--just like in Warhammer.

Haagrum wrote:I presume you meant to say "does not support".


Correct--typo on my part.


Haagrum wrote:This argument was based on reasoning by analogy from an identical situation in another army book, where I'm sure similar arguments were put, and where the ultimate resolution was to errata the book to make it work as intended with no further ambiguity. Rules should apply consistently across similar situations. Resolving this question without regard to that prior solution introduces inconsistency in the handling of identical situations.


Here's a big problem in your argument.

You are assuming--with no basis whatsoever--that the Arrows were intended to work like the magic items referenced in the Skaven book. However, I don't know the intent of the authors. You don't know the intent of the authors. The fact that Skaven champions are allowed to double-up on magic items is no reflection on whether or not Wood Elf units may do so. And there are entirely reasonable reasons why the authors could have chosen to treat the two situations differently--whether it be fluff or game balance.

In fact, the Skaven errata is evidence that GW did intend the two situations to work differently. The fact that GW went back and changed the Skaven rules shows that at least at some point, someone in the studio was sensitized to the issue and knows how to write rules for doubling up magic items. The fact that the studio did not include similar language in the Wood Elf book is an indication that the choice was intentional.

And in the end, there is nothing that requires all army books to work the same. It's the differences that make them interesting.
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Re: Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows

Post by Daeron »

I'm sure that, if the poisons of our Assassins would be listed as enchanted items then no duplication of the poisons would be allowed.

I'll just leave that thought... and flee.
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