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1,5 Tournament Eldar 
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Master of Puppets
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I'm a little short on time so I'll just brief the tactics and go into them later. I'm planning on using this list in a 1,5k tournament and because I have always played <1000pts. games I'm a little lost in here.. This is 50% more to my normal list! Also, I'm kinda lacking in the models department (I have them, its just that they are mostly Fast Attack...) so the list is a little stretched.

Anyway, here goes, C&C most welcome:

HQ

Autarch Jehufal 140pts.
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun,
Mandiblasters

Farseer Mauragh 165pts.
Eldar Jetbike, Spirit Stones, Runes
of Warding, Doom, Mindwar

Elites

6 Striking Scorpions 148pts.
Exarch Karhas
Scorpion’s Claw, Stalker
Shadowstrike

5 Fire Dragons 97pts.
Exarch Feuris
Dragon’s Breath Flamer, Crack Shot

Troops

3 Guardian Jetbikes 76pts. 5 Pathfinders 120pts.
Shuriken Cannon

Fast Attack

3 Shining Spears 152pts.
Exarch Shalaen
Withdraw, Skilled Rider


Vyper 65pts.
Eldar Missile Launcher

5 Warp Spiders 152pts.
Exarch Jala’eh
Powerblades, additional Deathspinner, Withdraw

Heavy Support

Falcon 205pts.
Holo-fields, Spirit Stones,
Vectored Engines, Scatter Laser,
Shuriken Cannon

Fire Prism 180pts.
Holo-fields, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines


Exactly 1500points. 9 scoring units. Plans on getting quickly into CC with Spears and Autarch while supporting with everything else. Farseer snipes Ork Nobs, sergeants with Powerfists and combos nicely with Pathfinders with Doom. Also a threat to vehicles with his S9 in CC..

Vyper tries to stay out of trouble and shoots its odd missile, threatening vehicle flanks and infantry formations. Cheap and scoring.

Warp Spiders are there to inflict extra casualties with their S6 gunz and occasionaly create some LoS covers by assaulting enemy units and later Withdrawing away to get their guns to bear. Powerblades in just to get 1 or 2 kills every now and then.

Fire Prism and Dragons for über killyness.

Thank you for reading!

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Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:33 pm
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Brolock
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2 things in general that I don't like. The flamer on the Fire Dragon exarch. For the most part, you're going to be aiming for units that are either vehicles or high armor save/toughness. Against both those things, the flamer really doesn't do so well. Also, the EML on the vyper. 1 shot weapons with BS 3 just isn't going to do very well. Give it either a shuricannon or a scatter laser, you'll make it cheaper and it will be able to deal with other low armor vehicles.

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Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:35 pm
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First off, thank you very much for the comment, it is greatly appreciated!

Well, the Dragon Exarch is staying :) After killing 12 Orks in one go, I think he has earned his place in the list. It allows the unit some versatility, something to do against list without any vehicles or if the vehicles aren't worth the trouble. I do know it is rather uncommon to use the flamer but its just a favourite of mine

You are absolutely right about the Vyper, though... Scatter Laser is 5pts. cheaper and I can't get anything with 5pts. but changing to 2xShuriken Cannon would end up being 5pts. cheaper again.. Ideas?

Mabe trade Shining Spears' Skilled Rider to a Starlance or Shuriken Cannon for the Exarch? Both would be neat :)

Quote:
2 things in general that I don't like.
Well, that means there are a lot of things in my list that you don't hate.. I'm happy :D

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Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:47 pm
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Master of the Red Legion
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For Vypers, 2x shuriken cannon I've always found is too good to pass up.

I'd say the list overall is pretty vulnerable, myself. Most of the units are pretty small and all it takes is one unlucky roll to make them useless. That being said, the balance in the list looks to be quite good, so I suppose that makes up for it in a big way.

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Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:48 pm
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Brolock
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Personally, I run 3 Vypers with Scatter Lasers and Shuricannons each. I find them invaluable for mowing down infantry and light vehicles. I also take, 3 war walkers with double scatters, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards for your list, and that's at 2000 points for me.

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Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:07 am
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Thanks for the comments guys, I see you have some experience with Eldar. I plyed a few games and all you said was true :)

Loki17 wrote:
I run 3 Vypers with Scatter Lasers and Shuricannons each. -- I also take, 3 war walkers with double scatters
Talking about vulnerable here! :O Does this really work? I always thought that they would shoot their shots and immediatly fall to the return fire..! Especially the War Walkers since you can deal penetrating hits against them.. They Vyper was nice both against Tyranids and CSM, killing Hormagaunts and Genestealers more than I can remember and Immobilizing two _important_ Rhinos.


Vorchild wrote:
I'd say the list overall is pretty vulnerable, myself. Most of the units are pretty small and all it takes is one unlucky roll to make them useless.
Yeah, I noticed :D The size of the units, though, is just because I don't own any more models! After seeing how random the Fire Prism was, I am thinking about putting the Hawks back.. Sunrifle and Haywire grenades makes them quite good all-rounders :) Thanks for the balance thing, I indeed tried to spread the points evenly and make every unit just as important as the next. It worked but seeing how much unlucky rolls I can get into one game, I guess its all about reliability! :D

Oh and Loki... After having to deal with two Land Raiders, I am considering to drop the Dragon Exarch and his flamer... ;)

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Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:15 pm
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Quote:
Talking about vulnerable here! :O Does this really work? I always thought that they would shoot their shots and immediatly fall to the return fire..!


Depends on what you give the Vypers :twisted:

I currently have two of them with holofields, spirit stones and two shuricen cannons. They never make up for their points but after playing against my own army once, I figured just how annoying those little things are. A missile against a Vyper is very unlikely to kill it (the holofields make the Vyper about as tough as a AV12-vehicle with smoke-launchers and additional armor). So what I do is I let one jump out and shoot at something (they can kill up to two marines a turn normally) and the other one waits behind cover. The one outside gets shot at and shaken, moves into cover the next turn and my other Vyper jumps out. Their speed allows them to quickly grab hold of rear armors and that, combined with their toughness means that they are such thorns in the side of my opponent that he will inevitably waste huge amounts of firepower to get them, which is mostly wasted of course... And a squad of ten marines shooting at my Vyper with a lascannon is a squad of marines which can normally not use its bolters to get rid of my eldar infantry. It works and allows the rest of my army to more than make up for its points even though the Vypers themselves do not.

In your case I would go with half the setup mentioned above - it wrecks more than enough damage and it is always fun to see how tough an open-topped vehicle can be.

As to the rest of your list - it looks a lot like my lists (except the farseer on jetbike). And it has the flaw that you have to play nigh-flawless to win with it, but if you do you wreck havoc and do not lose much of your own army (which is why I love it so much).

The fire prism really could be a lot cheaper. It does not need vectored engines at all if you ask me since there are lots of other threats in the army your opponent can shoot at. And vectored engines are hardly worth their price on non-transporters anyway because their value is in saving the troops inside it of which there are none (because the vehicle-destroyed result would kill a few models inside and leave the squad in the open, whereas the immobilised result means that the vehicle is still there, protecting the squad from small-calibre fire). The fire prism only benefits from the reduction of the chance of destroying it by 1/6. And in the next turn it can be penetrated which is when holofields really aren't worth much any more.

for the rest - go for it :D

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Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:01 pm
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As others have said, your list looks decent but frail. I'm most worried about the Scorpions. In a list that is all about careful maneuver and perfectly timed strikes, it seems like they will often be left behind or isolated and shot up. As much as it's a no-brainer choice, I think a smallish unit of Harlequins with Shadowseer would be vastly more effective thanks to their abilities to ignore terrain, fleet of foot, and effectively ignore all but short range shooting.

Regarding the Fire Dragons, as someone who has made frequent use of the Dragon's Breath Flamer, I strongly recommend keeping it. Instead of swapping it out, I would remove the Vectored Engines from your Prism and simply add a 6th Fire Dragon. There will be many times that you don't have vehicles to hunt and, as I'm sure you know, when you can drop that flamer template from point blank range it is truly nasty.


Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:43 pm
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Hehe, yeah Harlequins are a no-brainer and I like them a lot. I even have a old Harlequin army (from the times when Harlies were not an Elite choice)!

In the hurry I posted this list in, I didn't have the time to tell that this list is fragile and fast on purpose.. They are Eldar Corsairs originating from Saim-Hann, bearing the name of Jehufal's Skyhunters. Bearing in mind that the army is a corsair force and the (rare) Harlequins only interfere in battles that have a great meaning, I doubt Jehufal would never meet a Troupe Master...

And since they are so popular, I steer away from them ;)

You are right on the Scorpions, though. Their Inflitrate doesn't seem to do much and without Fleet, they do fall behind ever so often. They do, however, have sv3+ and awesome CC potential and have never let me down.. I guess Banshees would be better, especially since they can manage without Exarch and that means I can have more of them.

Thanks for the comments, Mr. Anderson, I was kind of hoping that you would spot my thread :) You reply made my jaw drop and eyes widen, I never even thought that it would effective to pimp the Vypers in such a way.. Holo-fields? Spirit Stones? When I got the new Eldar codex and noticed that the Crystal Targeting Matrix was out, I immediatly put those 3 carefully painted and converted Vypers on the shelf to gather some dust and to think of the good old days... I guess I should let them fly once again and see if they are of any good?

Mr. Anderson wrote:
As to the rest of your list - it looks a lot like my lists (except the farseer on jetbike).
Well, if I may.. The Farseer is arguably the most cost effective unit in the list. He stops Lashs of Submission, Waaaghs, Warp Blasts, threatens vehicles, snipes those pesky powerfists and improves the Pathfinders' efficiengy by a lot. And, he never loses a wound :)

And about the Vectored Engines on the Fire Prism.. You are right. I guess I didn't think of it too much when I wrote that :? What do you suggest to replace it with? ShuCannon or the Starlance on the Shining Spear Exarch? Something to improve the Vyper's durability?

EDIT:
Quote:
simply add a 6th Fire Dragon.
Why? Opponent would still need to only kill 3 to strip them of their Scoring status and I have found that there is absolutely nothing that can stand a chance against 4 BS4 Fusion Guns - especially if the vehicle is Doomed and is about to get 5 Meltabombs to the face. I am not an expert though, so please, enlighten me :)

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Last edited by Zakath the slaughterer on Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:45 pm
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Brolock
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To give you a basic idea of my army at 2250, I usually run something like:

1 Farseer, Guide and Mindwar
2 Scorpion units
1 minimum fire dragon unit in a WS with twin linked BLs
a couple guardian squads with 2 scatter lasers and 1 with BL
3 Vypers with Scatterlasers and shuricannons
3 Warwalkers with 2 scatterlasers
2 Fire prisms.

I don't have the list with me at the moment, so I forget the exact numbers of the units and whatnot, but it should give you an idea. Between the Fire Prisms and the Brightlances (the guardian one is guided by the farseer) I can deal with most main tanks in the first turn, and with the vypers and war walkers, I can deal with most of the transports. That usually leaves just infantry, which are typically too slow to catch my army. Though, I must be honest, my list is quite weak against the tyranid list with lots of TMCs. It just doesn't have enough AP2 weapons to deal with high tougness, multiple wound creatures.

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Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:48 pm
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HQ

Autarch Jehufal 140pts.
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun,
Mandiblasters

Farseer Mauragh 165pts.
Eldar Jetbike, Spirit Stones, Runes
of Warding, Doom, Mindwar

Elites

6 Striking Scorpions 148pts.
Exarch Karhas
Scorpion’s Claw, Stalker
Shadowstrike

5 Fire Dragons 97pts.
Exarch Feuris
Dragon’s Breath Flamer, Crack Shot

Troops

3 Guardian Jetbikes 76pts.
Shuriken Cannon

5 Pathfinders 120pts.

Fast Attack

6 Warp Spiders 174pts.
Exarch Jala’eh
Powerblades, additional Deathspinner, Withdraw

3 Shining Spears 152pts.
Exarch Shalaen
Withdraw, Skilled Rider

Vyper 105pts.
Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones

Heavy Support

Falcon 205pts.
Holo-fields, Spirit Stones,
Vectored Engines, Scatter Laser,
Shuriken Cannon

So there's the 2.0 version.. Totalling 1382pts. Since I can't cram any more Fast Attack in, I am short on ideas what to put in there next. I own 3 Vyper models which I really much like but was hesitant on putting more than 1 in a unit - opinions?

I guess I could use a Dire Avenger squad, for example but I would rather just duplicate the Pathfinders which fit the theme more nicely. I do have 3 more Jetbikes so I could also field another Guardian Jetbike squadron. I'm not sure if they have any function in the list. After those, I practically only have the choices of foot-slogging Banshees and War Walkers.

EDIT: Loki17, I see our lists are rather different in playstyle :) Do you give your Scorpions Shadowstrike? How do you feel about the Wave Serpents, do they actually work? I could give one to my Dragons and put the Scorpions into the Falcon instead. Doomed vehicle receiving a shot from TL Brightlance is pretty much that I guess - Doomed.

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Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:56 pm
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Quote:
5 Fire Dragons 97pts.
Exarch Feuris
Dragon’s Breath Flamer, Crack Shot


:? ... Crack shot really ain't great with a flamer - in fact, its half useless because the flamer already ignores cover saves...

Quote:
Vyper 105pts.
Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones


Beauty :D

I wouldn't put more than one Vyper in a unit because that makes them a lot harder to hide.

As to the left over points - if your there is Saim-Hann, I reckon go for a body guard for the farseer (either guardians or, even better - warlocks on jetbikes 8) )

Even though you asked Loki about Wave serpents - here's my opinion: They are only useful (IMHO) if you have a squad occupying all the space in the Tank. I always take a 10 man squad of Dire Avengers with an Autarch. They are beautifully effective (I only miss the toughness holofields give the tank).

You can't doom vehicles because you do not roll to wound against a Vehicle.

HUZZHA!

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:54 am
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If you are looking for a transport for your assault troops (Scorpions, or better yet Banshees for the fleet move) a holofielded falcon is the way to go. You really need the extra survivability since you need to expose your vehicle to at least 1 turn of fire before you can disembark and assault.

I have had success with Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent. Their transport doesn't need nearly as much durability, since it will often remain hidden until popping out to let the Dragons burn down their target of choice.

To reiterate, the Dragon's Breath and Crack Shot are indeed brilliant. Reroll to wound with a close up heavy flamer kills more marines on average then rapid firing plasma. Reroll to wound means that instead of killing 10 out 12 fire warriors you kill every last one of them. In my previous post I suggested adding a 5th Fire Dragon in response to your comment about the two land raiders. I usually run my Dragons at 6 total, including the Dragon's Breath wielding exarch. I like the insurance 5 shots gives me against botched to wound or damage rolls and it only costs 16 more points for the extra model.

The sad thing is that much of this advice will be obsolete once you start playing 5th edition, but for the mean time your list looks good!


Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:27 am
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Quote:
Dragon's Breath and Crack Shot are indeed brilliant


Maybe when you look at it from the point of view of how many casualties it can cause, however I am strongly against the flamer in a Fire Dragon squad because the flamer is against hordes and fighting hordes really is not what Fire Dragons are supposed to do. I use Fire Dragons to hunt down smallish elite squads (terminators, carnifexes, tyranid warriors and the likes) and against most of those a flamer will not do much harm (because my targets nearly always have an armor save against it). I just give my Fire Dragons the tank hunter special rule and am done with it - keeps it focused on one purpose and doesn't cost too much.

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:40 am
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Giving eldar units a single focus and sticking with it during the game is usually a fantastic idea. However, Fire Dragons are one unit that I feel truly benefits from a dual role. For a very modest cost (17pts), you trade a single melta shot for a re-roll to wound heavy flamer. Against hard vehicles you the flamer will do nothing, but 5 bs4 meltaguns should be more than enough regardless. Now consider heavy infantry. If you are dropping out of a transport (which is the way I always use my dragons), you should be able to get at lest 4-5 models under the flame template. Often, however, you will get considerably more.

vs. tactical marines and equivalents (out of cover):
Meltagun- 1 shot, Hits 5/6 times, Wounds 5/6 times => 0.69 dead
Linked Heavy Flamer (covering 5)- 5 hits, wounds 8/9, 1/3 fail saves => 1.48 dead

vs. Terminators:
Meltagun- 1 shot, Hits 5/6 times, Wounds 5/6 times, 2/3 fail inv save => 0.46 dead
Linked Heavy Flamer (covering 5)- 5 hits, wounds 8/9, 1/6 fail saves => 0.74 dead

Now, the real beauty of the flamer is that when you run into a horde of orcs with their biggest vehicle being a truck OR better yet, another eldar player bringing out a nasty unit of harlies or banshees... instead of having a largely ineffective unit of meltagunners, you have the herald of the apocolypse.

Prime shot vs. Genestealers
Linked Heavy Flamer (covering eight)- 8 hits, wounds 8/9 => 7.11 dead!

Prime shot vs. Harlequins
Linked Heavy Flamer (covering eight)- 8 hits, wounds 8/9, 2/3 fail inv. save => 4.74 dead!

To sum up an already over long post, the Dragons Breath adds a huge amount of utility to an otherwise tightly focused unit at a very small cost in points and without significantly reducing the unit's ability to accomplish it's primary role.


Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:23 am
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@KnightSaber: good point about the wounds :D didn't think about that one. It really does make the unit more versatile but I still prefer another melta shot at BS5 because it can damage both vehicles and other things (the heavy flamer will not do a lot of damage to a carnifex or a land raider). But seeing as it doesn't affect the amount of wounds all that much I guess it really comes down to personal preferences.

Together with my falcon (which has a star cannon and a pulsar) the squad can deal out 10 shots which ignore armor saves, which is not to be sniffed at ;)

HUZZAH!

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:04 am
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well... you've proved your point, and since its a tournament list, i think you've got the right idea.

I love that your using SS, i think there under used, but i always try to fit a unit in. I'm very out of touch, but i like the list, even if the units are a little small for my liking. Have you considered adding a few more jet-bikes in with the extra points?

And finally, you mentioned, nicely converted vypers, does this mean you have a nicely converted farseer? do you have a pic, I'm looking for ideas.

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:47 am
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Well, the Farseer was a real pain in the butt (and in fingers) to convert!

After two nights of hard work the model is ready though and I'm rather happy about it. I bought a Farseer on foot model and cut it half from the waist. I then pinned the body onto a Guardian Jetbike rider legs and greenstuffed a robe to cover most of the legs and any seams etc. that I like to hide. I then gave him the Autarch's power sword (that was trickier than it sounds, the pieces are just so small!). The Farseer himself is still unpainted but the Jetbike is about ready..

I like it a lot but that's probably mostly because I went through so much effort on making him :D He does look kinda goofy with riding a Jetbike with no hands (he wields the Witchblade and points his Shupistol around) and I'm thinking of cutting away the "horns" he has on his helm because he doesn't look quite so dynamic with those monuments sprouting from his head....

Quote:
I love that your using SS
Thanks man :) They are by far my favourite unit and the one that has never let me down. And I mean never! I think its funny how people usually regard Banshees superior to them but oh well, I have no problem with opponents underestimating my units :)

Quote:
Have you considered adding a few more jet-bikes in with the extra points?
Actually, I usually field 2x3 Bikes in my 1k list :) I just find that since the Spider, Spears, Jetbikes and, in first turn, everything else needs to take cover, there is very little left for them.. Mr. Anderson got me thinking of a mounted Warlock bodyguards for the Farseer - would be really cool but at the same time, even more pain to build! :D If I give him one or two Warlocks (one with Destructor, one with Embolden, both with Singing Spears), I still have one bike to make either extra Shining Spears or Guardian Jetbikes from.

Ideas...?

Oh, and not to be rude, I thank you most sincerely from the sage advice presented here :) You have been most helpful in my guest to bring glory to Saim-Hann ;)

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:08 pm
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i'm thinking of building an army round a seer council, and mounting them on jetbikes. the problem is, they become very expensive very quickly. i was hoping to get 10 into as smaller list as possible, but not sure...

As for you, i think it would be a nice addition, but i feel that they only become great if you can get a fair few of them.... i'm without a book for about a week, so don't go with what i say until you've checked it out, but you sound like you've got loads more experience than me, and there's lots of other experienced players in the thread, so lets wait for replies!

i would go for whatever you can fit in... tool the warlocks up first, then if you have the points, go for the shinning spear, if not the jetbike, although you could always add 2 or more models to another unit...

[as a little side note, i was planning on converting the farseer and warlocks to be standing on fighting platforms on jet-bikes (like the special character saim-hann have)]

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:39 pm
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