Tyranids: Genestealers swarm

[Nidhogg]

Iam finally ready to expend my gw miniatures range for those from 40k. My beloved race since ever were tyranids, as dark elves in wfb. Now, Iam green with rules, but ia have this image in my head of whole swarm of genestealers(since i played space hulk on my amiga i guess ) + few big monsters.

So, would it make sense if I would start my army with rulebook, codex, broodlord, 2 lictors, 2 carnifexes, and like 8 boxes of genestealers? My goal is 1.5k point legal army with winning-from-time-to-time ability .

[Elric of grans]

No one around here plays Tyranid, so I cannot speak from experience, but I know from reading around that Genestealers are highly effective. However, they are also pretty expensive (8 boxes would be 1200-1300-ish points), so you probably will not be able to field an enormous swarm of them. Gaunts are the critters to use if you want large swarms. The Carnifex is highly effective as a powerful support to your Stealer Shock, however.

The biggest problem with the list, however, is that it is made of extremely expensive, extremely killy, but ultimately fragile bugs. You would be out-numbered by the average Space Marine force, which is more survivable. I would suggest adding some Gaunts (Hormagaunts and/or Spinegaunts) for cheap throw-away troops, and some Warriors and/or Zoanthropes. Spinegaunts can soak-up wounds and capture objectives, but require Synapse creatures, though they can act as a delivery system for Warriors and Genestealers.

[Rabidnid]

Short answer is no, assuming you want to win an occasional game.

Basic stealers are 16 points, which is more than a marine, but with a 5+ save and no ranged attack.

If you cscrounged up all of the ripper swarms you can find an used about 30 bases of those then you might have the basis of an army, but a balanced list is preferable.

HQ:
Tyrant is best, the brood lord is not very tough and with its genestealer meat shield very expensive.


HQ/Elites:
Warriors are fine, big units of cheap CC warriors, or mid sided units of shooting warriors or small elite CC units with leap all work.

Elites:
Lictors have some good rules and can cause much confusion, but are very frail for their 80 points.

Troops:
Gaunts. The basic Tryranid troop type is the gaunt, a load of these guys at 6 to 7 points each will pad out an army nicely and give you some distraction for your more expensive units.

Stealers. Very hard hitting in CC and upgradable, but need good cover or screening with melees to rach their target. Always give these guys flesh hooks to explite their high initiative.

Ripper swarms. Cute but useless, a 5 point gaunt is infinitely more useful. Being able to run in 5th ed makes them slightly more useful.

Hormagaunts. Expensive and tend to get out of synapse range too quickly.

Heavy Support:
Zoanthopes are one of the best units in the game, synapse creature and warp blast is the basic version, but also very effective.

Carnifexes are hugely diverse. The main thing with them is don't over upgrade. Try not to exceed 175 points for a chooter or 150 for a CC carnixes because they will die easily to shooting and you don't want to throw points away.

Biovores. Vulnerable to indirect shooting and not terribly effective. I run one becaause I have the model. The indirect 2xD6 + 3 acid mine attack on vehcles, can be very effective though.

My basic 1500/1850 point list is:


Winged Tryant
Tyrant

Lictor
4 Warriors with Scythign talons and rending claws

2x8 genstealers with flesh hooks
3x19 spine (5 point) gaunts

2x Zoathropes
1x Biovore

[Starscream]

Elric has good points, the army is very compact and specialised, which is ok but against a shooting based army like some Space Marines or Tau they would very vulnerable. Hormogaunts are very fast and numerous therefore distracting cannonfodder, also the "without number" rule on Spinegaunts or Termagants allows the unit to return to play if it's wiped out. Ravenors are also a good choice, able to deep strike from under the ground.

'Stealers are good assault infantry but if you need to keep an objective you would have to stand on it and waiting to be assaulted would take away a Genestealers greatest asset, where a more numerous unit of gaunts would be more suitable.

There are loads of options in the Codex so even if you did want to do a 'Stealer force you could still give it some flexibility and survivability. The Hive Mind has plenty of bodies to support those hard-hitting units.

[Lono]

I don`t know if the thread is too old or not but since it's on first page I'll asume it's okay. I've been playing Nids for a long time and the stealer army is one of the two competitive build right now. So yes a primarly stealer based force is not only good but extremely competetive provided you get in the spirit of a vanguard swarm and add a few things besides genestealers.

The "stealer shock" list is based on the infiltrate rule. The idea is to have your stealers come by the sides of the board where they can assault between 13 and 18 from any side on the turn they get in. So the idea here is to bank on that so the enemy have to time shooting them up.

Now on the specifics :

-Stealers : between 3 to 5 broods (including a broodlord brood) with scuttlers, feeder tendrils and nothing else. Scuttlers for infiltrate, tendrils to reroll misses. The other upgrades will raise the cost too much and since you are planning on having a lot stealers you raise the cost too much. Between 8 to 10 stealer a brood a good number since you will leave a few models alive and hopefully they wont flee giving you a chance to wipe the enemy on its turn and not be open to fire.

-Lictors : You need 2 to 3 lictors to reroll those all important reserve rolls. If the army comes little by little the stealers loose all their impact. It is vital for this army to come on the board as one. In Kill point scenario you can always hide the lictor far away to not give points.

-HQ : The necessity of a broodlord is debated since the stealers lose the "fleet" rule and it can leave them stranded. However it is very caracterful and he's a monster in CC. Flying tyrants compliment nicely the Vanguard(more below)

-The vanguard: one of the big weaknesses of the list is that a cunning oponent will deploy all his army in the middle of the field so your stealers cant reach him. To counter this you need to have a few units that will deploy smack in your center to convince him to deploy on the sides. Often the vanguard will be a mix of gaunts, cheap CC carnifex (or a VC armed one for anti-tank duty) and a synapse (warriors often). If he deploys first make sure your carnifex is on the table in the center anyway, as if you where going to deploy it there. Psycological warfare never hurts

[Zardock]

@ Lono you probably shouldn't do that. Check the last post in the thread, before you this topic had not been talked about for 2 months and that is far to long.

Threadomancy is against forum rules and you should really not do this it is a good way to annoy the hell out of the Mods/Admins.

[Hali]

Don't forget Zardock, the 40k thread section of these forums isn't a hugely popular one, and it's always better to post into an existing thread than it is to start a new one. His comments where on topic and informative, so it's not like he just bumped the thread up for the sake of it.

Don't think he's doing anything wrong.


Back on topic, I'm also branching into 40k and using nids. Just bought myself an Assault Brood and a Hive Tyrant. Also, if any of you are running AB2.2c, i've recently finished editting the Tyranids file so that it's up to date and compatible for 2.2c, so drop me a PM and i can send you the datafile.

My army isn't too serious, i don't plan to play tournaments with it, just happy to bash it around at the local club. As such i'm going rather monster heavy Hive Tyrant, three Carnifex's decked out warriors squads and ripper swarms.

Just wnat to ask about the Warriors, i've heard since 5th edition came out, Warriors tend to just be dead on thier feet, first thing targetted etc. Now my current 1500pts list takes two units with Rending, Scything Leaping, Carapace and Toxin Sacks. I kind of like the agressiveness of the unit, but wanted to hear first hand peoples experience with thier warriors, and mainly thier survivability in face of combat.

[Greg]

use 2 very large warrior units with death spitters to sit on objectives.
I have 2 scuttling stealer squads, tyrant with guard, carni, 25 strong gaunt squad and 3 hormi squads 11 strong.
Big squads are best in my opinion as they take a lot to destroy and if they are the focus the rest of the army will get the enemy
I find the key is to have a couple of scuttling stealers to nail the enemies most effective shooting units.

[Lidlesspraetor]

Okay, since most people here admit to not playing 40k often let me tell you that an all genestealer list works AWESOME!!! With a broodlord and lictors, you can use the outflank maneuver all the time with pretty much your whole army! Who needs to worry about being shot to pieces before you make combat, because you're coming in off of the side table edge and you have the ability to assault on the same turn you come in on. Bottom line: your list would be very themed (always a plus in my book, as I always build to theme) and you would be competitive.

[Kargan daemonclaw]

All genestealer lists have always been pretty effective until they come up against a heavily mechanised list.

It is pretty hard to pull an enemy skimmer out of the sky and even then the squad can get out and shoot you.

Scuttling looks pretty good but it's possible to come on from the wrong flank and end up with nothing to fight.

One thing to avoid is taking too many upgrades and ending up with 25 point models. You then have too few models to make an impact.

Gaunts and rippers are much more fragile in combat. If they lose they can dissappear real quick. They also can't hold objectives unless in synapse range unless you want to chance passing a LD 5 test.

Combining gaunts and a carnifex in the same assault can just get you a dead carnifex. It's much easier for the enemy to get kills from the gaunts to win the combat and inflict no retreat wounds on the fex automatically.

[Lono]

@Hali

Warriors works best in groups of 4 to 6. Three and less can be killed way too easily since they require only 6 wounds to die. With a basic 5+ save it can be easily achieved. The important trick to survival with warriors is to keep them behind a screen(guants works well here). Even if you shoot thorugh your own troops giving the oponent a 4+ ward save most tyranid weapons have high AP(5+ to none) so your oponent will get his saves most of the time. With a 4+ ward save your oponent will have to expend a lot of shooting. Either directly at them or to clear the gaunt screen(wich is their job to get shot at anwyay). I often equip them with 4+ armor but not everyone agrees on it.

Now warriors have two main build right now(I use both but not at the same time).

CC warriors: warriors are absolute monsters if they make it in CC. With all the right upgrades(+1S, +1sv, scything talons, rending claws and leaping at minimum), they can tear through almost anything in the game. The key upgrades is leaping to get in assault fast and +1 strenght. However they have a lot of downsides. They are costly(40pts +), they are fragile to shooting and they dont have the all important fleet rule meaning they take more time to get in CC. Also since they dont have fleet they tend to get left behind and open to shooting. A single round of shooting is all that is needed to kill them. They work best screened by guants and unleashed as a second wave or counter charge.CC warriors requires a lot of finesse but they are devastating.

Template warriors: my favorite build. Equip them all with death spitter and a barbed stranglers. I run a unit of 5 and they have killed often whole squads in a single turn of shooting. With a good scatter you can get on average 12 strenght 6 hits and 6 to 8 strenght 4. Very devastating. Since they have guns they have better chance of doing their work and add a close combat weapon for suprise countercharges.

[Hali]

I was thinking about the set ups, and allthough i can understand the bonuses of taking Rendign Talons, I still can't really justify it over two sets of Scything Talons. Not only is the upgrade a bit cheaper, an extra attack has got to be seen as better than ignoring armour saves, for most cases at least.

When you're talking about unit sizes of 6 or so, that's four S5 attacks EACH, going to 5x S5 on the charge. Which is A HELL of alot of attacks. Seeing as i've got my three tooled up carnifexs i have no worries on having anti tank/armoured opponent capabilities, although i'm seriously thinking about dropping Ripper swarms and taking some termagaunts and hormagaunts in order to screen things away, althought i like the look of the hormagaunts, and thier close combat suits my theme, can't quite justify thier 10pts a pop, would rather use genestealers which have a bit more attack prowess.

Still, i might post a list up and get people to review it, and thanks a million for your feedback. My models arrived yesterday, just been having so much fun constructing them all. Beautiful moulds, glad I went with the nids.

[Lono]

The rending claws are more used for cracking up space marines and terminators(or anything else with low armor). Altough it doesnt show much low armor models (especially 2+ terminators) can really put a dent in your assault. Even if you lose 5 to 6 attacks by putting rending claws it can be a good thing to take 2 turns to finish up a close combat instead of one. You don't want to expose yourself to shooting.

CC Carnifex can struggle agaisnt armored oponents. With their low WS a carnifex will kill on average 2 space marines a turn for example. If they have a powerfist your looking at 3 to 4 turn to break them and in that time the powerfist has more than enough time to take down your fex. Carnifex struggles agaisnt large squads and they are better used tank hunting, taking on small squads or lone/special characters.

Few tips I learned the hard way with tyranids:
-Dont go pure assault. Every nid players starts this way and we all realize that a litle bit of shooting can save you. Template weapons are great so does twin-linked devourers on monstrous creatures. You don't want a loota squad unleashing 45 str 7 ap4 shots on your broods every turn and not be able to do something about it. I use template warriors and a barbed strangler armed carnifex.

-Don't overestimate your assault strength. Your not a living engine of death as the book says you are. I've seen 20+ hormagaunts rebound of space marines simply because he made enough 3+ saves. Rending is a life saver since it garanties a few deaths agaisnt everything.

-Focus your assault. Never, ever assault directly across a broad front. Choose a side and roll up his line. You don't have to expose yourself across a broad front for no reason. Refused flank is your best friend.

-Always use covers and shields. You need that 4+ cover save at all time. Go to ground if needed with your shields as 6+ is better than all dying and a few models can keep your shield alive forcing your oponent to shoot at it again.

Pretty much it Now have fun devouring the galaxy!

[Hali]

Actually suprised to hear that Carnifex's aren't that good against units. Thought something like a Tusked, 2x Scything Talons, Scythe Tail, Bonded Exo, Reinforced Chitin, Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands WS, was a real unit killer on the charge, despite the lower WS. Especially if you team him up with a lictor, or genestealers with Feeder Tendrils.

That's 6 St 10 attacks that ignore armour, with re-rolls to hit assuming the Lictor/Genestealers are nearby, then D3 S5 attacks still ignoring armour. Even with higher weapon skill, i was sure that'd be enough to tear through a unit of Terminators.

Admittedly though, i've been tweaking my list a bit. Added in a unit of Termagaunts with Devourers to both shield and shoot, toying with some alternative lists to build into for more competitive play, which drops a Carnifex to add in a bit more manpower.

Still not sure about the Rending Claws on the Warriors. I know that Fantasy plays quite a bit different from 40k, but I keep thinking about the "throw enough mud at a wall" and the fact that having more attacks has more damage potential, especially if i face other horde armies, all of a sudden a unit of warriors has enough attacks to take out a unit of 20 models.

[Lono]

The tail scythe doesn't work great since you need 5+ models around you , it's a chancy weapon and I'd rather have the points spent elsewhere. The combo with lictors/genestealers takes a lot of timing. Since carnifex charge on the third turn and lictors/genestealers tend to show up on the second turn you need them to stay alive a full turn. Not saying it's impossible just you need to put a lot of effort in making it happen and your limiting your possibilities running with that.

But basically the carnifex your describing in the right situation will destroy everything it touches I just don't field often that kind of pimped set up anymore. Your better off going cheap on biomorphs and having more models than over equiped ones. Since you don't have invulnerable saves and no tanks, lascannons, railguns, melta, etc... tend to all go on your fex. 4 wounds go down fast with AP 1 or 2 weapons I've lost two monstrous creatures in a single round of shooting a few times.

As for the warriors the "more attacks, something will stick" approach does works. It's just I rather be sure to open the cans than hope my oponent fails his saves. But its a matter of preferences really.

[Hali]

Thanks a million for your help Lono, it's really appreciated. I'll certainly see how things go but my list has allready gone under the knife a bit from the help you've given.

Might look up that Tyranids 5th Ed playtest list, see what's in store for me there.

Also, thought that having the Genestealers in the army, two units of 8 with Feeder Tendrils, one with Scuttlers, gives the army a decent ammount of Rending attacks for which to throw at units like Terminators etc. Once again, the only problem is, trying to free the points to get a second screening unit it. Dropping the Warrior's units down a model each can do it, and is probaly the best comprimise, but something strikes me about taking 6 rather than 5. Still that's the best way to do it. I'll post my list up and see if people can appraise it rather than hijacking this thread.

Thankyou all for the help anyway, Genestealer horde would be an absolute pain to deal with.