The DNet RPG Rules: Read First!

Alcing ragaholic · Post by **Alcing ragaholic** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:47 pm

Hello and welcome to the Druchii.Net RPG. This is the latest version of the RPG, with the normal RPG being down... but no worries. Once that is back up, our return there will be certain. These are the rules we use to play in our RPG.

How To Play
It is rather easy to participate in the DNet RPG. All you require is a computer with internet access, a membership in DNet, and an active imagination! Using these three, you can make a Dark Elf character of your own, and be led around the Olde World by a Moderator in a quest for riches, fame, or even just plain mayhem.

Since we are playing online, we will be using forums to post our characters actions and interactions with the other players. Each Group will have it's own Thread that they can post in. However, therein lies the problem. As this is a passive medium, we cannot immediately react to other people's actions. So, we have a limit. Each player posts 1 action or interaction every 24 hours. The moderator will also post once every 24 hours to keep the action and story moving along. Now, in some cases, players will be allowed to post multiple times, and the moderators even encourage this. Keep the 24 hour requirement in mind, and the game will progress quite rapidly.

The other part about being online is that we cannot roll dice on a forum. So, instead, each group has a moderator who decides what happens, what works, or what doesn't work. Anytime your character attempts to do something, the moderator will go through with it, indicating success, or show failure in some other way. Since there are no dice, that means this is a FREE FORM RPG. Free Form means that there are no strict targets for failure or success; these are based off the whim of the moderator and the quality of the players posts. You cannot affect something other than yourself without the moderator's approval. For example:

"Thurl swung his Draich and killed the Clanrat." This is bad. You cannot do this, as you are controlling the situation. Think of it as the element of chance and fate that would occur when rolling the dice. Instead of the dice, you have a moderator! Also, the example doesn't leave much room for your moderator to help you in the story... it's just an action and nothing more. But instead, try this:

"Thurl stepped back, trying to dodge the jagged spear of the Clanrat and put the ratman off balance before trying to slash at him with his Draich." See the difference in quality? That's the type of post a moderator prefers reading... it helps him make the story a little better and more dramatic. Besides, the better you post, the higher chance of success you give your actions. Avoid 1 line posts, as they tend to not have enough information to allow your moderator to thoroughly expand on your situation.

Please note... you have to post at least once every 24 hours, in accordance with your moderator's wishes. The regularity of posts is the pace at which your game will proceed. So, the faster you are posting, the faster the story goes. And who knows, maybe the moderator will post more than once a day!

These are the current rules... and if you have any questions, feel free to post here. Also, make sure to read the ITEM RULES next.

Have fun, and I hope to see you in the RPG!

Z

Wraith · Post by **Wraith** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:45 pm

And a quick note to all returning players:

You can use your old character identities (changed to meet the new rules), **HOWEVER** Everyone has to start off at lvl 1, and with none of their old equipment (except what's given to you by the new rules).

This is **NOT** a continuation to the old RPG, its a new one.

Dearchon · Post by **Dearchon** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:38 pm

i'm a tad confused, read the character creation thing as well, but does this run in a similar way to say "the journey home" which i'm doing? that one doesnt have any stat points etc, how do they work?? and how do levels work?? tho i'm probably gonna be well up for a bash at it!!

Alcing ragaholic · Post by **Alcing ragaholic** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:59 pm

I'm not sure what you're talking about... the rules seems rather clear.

Z

Darmort · Post by **Darmort** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:11 pm

DEArchon - This isn't anything like the RR (Round Robin) RPGs being run in the History section, and shouldn't be treated like one. It's a serious game (well, it's all for fun, but there's nothing silly in it), and is Moderated by many people, instead of one.
So no, it's not like the Journey Home, but yes, it is a Role Play (however, most actions are guided by the Mods, not us). Think of it as a form of AD&D or something.

And thank god we have this thing running again! Thank you for getting it back and running (or it will be soon).

Alcing ragaholic · Post by **Alcing ragaholic** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:13 pm

Well, the first 5-6 people posting a character may start AS SOON AS tomorrow! Wow!

Z

Dearchon · Post by **Dearchon** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:24 pm

ok well if i post a character and stuff will people be able to guide me along if i dont get it right away?

Alcing ragaholic · Post by **Alcing ragaholic** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:28 pm

Definitely.

Z

Grothgar · Post by **Grothgar** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:11 am

Well… people must have known that soon I would get wind of this here RPG, or, at least, the filler that this is until the main RPG gets back up and running. I have looked through the rules and the character creation… and I have a few concerns that this system is way too restrictive for good roleplaying. I will list them out below. No particular order.

1) I have no problem with the number of points you get given for character creation… it has always been as such… but what I do have a problem with is the requirements for certain characters. I can understand a Shade having to start with Intelligence 3, because surviving in the wilds does take more “smarts” than living in your nice little city. The same being with Trainee’s and their Dexterity, after all, you have to be relatively nimble to prosper in that line of work.

However, Warriors should not be constrained by this because they are conscripted into the Army, they do not volunteer. To be a Shade you have grown up in the mountains, and those that do not have the necessary skills die. The same with the Temple, they are stolen on Death Night and those that do not make the grade are probably eaten by the Witch Elves. However, it is possible to get through your conscription without being strong… you could be rather smart and played off your enemies against each other, or you could have excelled with a light blade, something you did not need strength to swing.

Also, why bother having those prerequisites… because, again, it just limits what people can do with their character and then you end up with 50 people looking really very similar, and no-one wants that. Would it not be fun to play a dumb shade, one who had survived purely on dumb luck… or to play a clumsy trainee, who either has the strength for this to be overlooked or the intelligence to help people overlook it. Surely the rules should be there to allow people to express themselves… not be constrained.

2) Equipment and Skills… why does everyone start with the same equipment and/or skills? This just makes them seem too similar again. Now, again, I understand why a Shade starts with their skills and why Trainees start with theirs… but why do Warriors start with no skills? They passed their conscription… surely they would have picked something up during their travails. Also… what happens if you want to play a Warrior with a bit of style, or a leaping lunatic who bounds off surfaces like they were the ground? This system does not allow this kind of freedom… and thus suffers for it.

My character, Menthil, is a carefree kind of person, he likes his weapons light and he likes a lot of them. He does not wear armour and disdains the use of a shield, because it affects his swashbuckling technique. What I would propose is that Warriors (and Shades and Trainees, but Warriors Mostly) be allowed to trade in their equipment for skills, on a one for one basis. So, for Menthil, I would trade in the light armour and shield for Two Weapon Fighting and Parry, because that is his character.

Otherwise, no matter what character you wish to play, you start off the same… and where is the fun or roleplaying ability in that? All you will get is 50 carbon copies of each other, because the system does not allow any freeform thinking. And again, there will be many people wanting to use a Draich, or some other weapon other than the weapons they are given, and this does not allow them to do so. After all, whilst Trainees who use Halberds may be rare… who cares if it allows the player to express themselves in the way they wish. Otherwise you are stuck in the same old stereotypes, and no-one wants that because it is really boring.

From my previous point about stereotypes… why are some skill sets now mutually exclusive? What can I not have a Warrior trained in the arts of espionage… or a Trainee who is skilled in unleashing masses of arrows from a longbow, they are assassins after all, and it is always less dangerous to kill someone from range than up close and personal. Yes, some things should be only for certain classes, like the frenzy for Trainees, because that is part of the drugs they are given, and the way the are trained. But there is no reason why a Warrior could not learn to be stealthy… after all; stealth in a city and stealth in the wilds are two totally different things.

3) I like the fact that you can only carry certain things now, it is much more realistic. However, if, as you have said, the better roleplaying the better chance things have of going your way… why bother to have Item Stats. Now, Range I can see why, even if there are not actual range increments, if you know that a Longbow has a better range than a Shortbow… then you are going to realise you are screwed and take cover. Speed… I can sort of understand this, but again, surely it depends on the skill of the person using it. I have a rapier in real life, and I am pretty skilled with it, but a dagger would be, in this world, faster. However, if I come up against a total novice with a dagger, and I have my rapier, that combat is only turning out one way.

So, Speed is relative, and should depend more on the skill of the practitioner than the items inbuilt abilities. Yes, a dagger is faster than a sword… unless you have only just got your hands on a dagger and you are facing the dojo master with his Draich… no matter how fast your dagger is, the master with the Draich is going to be faster than you. Now, onto the Power of weapons, this is a complete fallacy. If I, with my rapier(lets say Shortsword stats), come up against someone with a Draich then I am at an immediate power disadvantage. However, if the guy with the Draich swings and only grazes my skull, but my riposte has my Rapier through his heart… who has done the most damage?

This leads me onto the armour… yes hindrance is probably a good idea… if anyone knew what it meant… but protection, well that matters not a jot. It does not matter how heavy the armour you are wearing if that big ass Chaos Warrior slices you in half with his oversized novelty axe. Also, you might get people saying the following: “Ha, you only have a Power 2 Shortsword… I have Protection 4 Heavy Armour… I am invulnerable!” Yes, that is true, until that power 2 Shortsword slashes your neck open… yes another argument against the use of Power for weapons. Also, it does not matter how much protection your Shield gives you if you do not manage to block the attack with it in the first place.

4) Just a small thing… but I notice that the skills do not include proficiencies for weapons. Does this mean that, as a Warrior… or hell, as any class… I can just pick up any weapon and use it with all the skill in the world? Seems a bit ridiculous to me… we have always had speciality skills… why do we not have them anymore? Because, otherwise, how are we to know what people are good with. Yes, two weapon fighting may allow you to have weapons with a power of 4 together… but if you have had no training with the old Longsword and Daggers… you would not use that combination of weapons… but with this system in place… why the hell not, you are not going to be penalised for it.

Right, I think that is it… I would like my questions and queries answered if you please… and not with “this is how it is going to be” because, these rules happen to be against the spirit of roleplaying… how are you supposed to play a role, and distinguish yourself, if everyone is a carbon copy of each other.

Thank You.

Pale warrior · Post by **Pale warrior** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:59 am

I agree with many of the points Grothgar makes, as a player who invests heavily on the roleplaying aspects of RPGs. My character Sziren, while not a swashbuckler like Grothgar's character Menthil, relies more heavily and expertly on speed and maneuvering than brute combat force. He's an aristocratic corsair, not a sword-and-shield lineman. Should I not be able to play this way, with a unique and fun (for me) character, because the basic rules don't allow for that kind of customization?

Now, if the system is still in the fleshing-out phase, I can understand why things are little backward right now. But that would itself be backward, since we had all these issues pretty well solved in the previous incarnation of the RPG.

Points that I particularly agree with the ones concerning starting equipment and skills, the discourse on Speed and Power, and the weapon proficiencies.
I'll present them in order, starting with the first: My ideal starting equipment would be a short sword, not a longsword, and maybe a cloak instead of light armor, and no shield. Now rather than disadvantage myself like this in a fashion, swapping equipment for skills seems like a fair idea. You sacrafice valuable equipment that you could sell, trade, or use, to take a skill or two instead. In effect, losing armor and shield to take skills relating to stealth and speedy defense...losing one advantage for another just as good.

I think Grothgar made a far better point concerning Speed and Power on weapons than I could hope to, so I shall suffice to say I quite liked his example.

On to weapon proficiency skills...It would be a travesty if some hulking brute character laid aside their greataxe and took up (to continue Grothgar's example) a rapier. Envision if you will, an uruk-hai from LotR brandishing a rapier with a toothy roar. Does this make you laugh as much as it does me? It's absurd, as is my character Sziren for example taking up some hulking battleaxe from Conan. I would have to cry. On the same token, a Shade probably isn't going to be very good with a halberd, I should think, since that is a weapon that emphasizes neither speed nor stealth.

In short, my point echoes what Grothgar put forth, and I shall express it in my case here more briefly...I think there aught to be a little more allowance for creativity...some starting gold, maybe some customization options, and fewer skill restrictions. I don't want to be a 'TK421.' (I hope -someone- gets that reference!)

Wraith · Post by **Wraith** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:04 am

Right, I'll adress a couple of Grothgar's points, good points by the way.

-Classes are stuck in certain skill points (shades with int 3 for instance), to make it more realistic. Now granted, it might be fun for someone to play a bumbling trainee or a dumb shade, however, to properly play such a character they need to be a DAMN good roleplayer. I'm not saying that the players on this board aren't but undoubtedly we'll get some fresh, never played before, players... And we don't want them to start off with a character that is above their skill level.

Now lets say a veteran RPer, one who had impressed all the mods, had a character die... If he wanted to create an anti-character like that, he could PM a mod, and we'd deliberate on whether or not to allow them that priveledge.

-As for speed and power on weapons... Why do they have damage values in D&D? If you roll a critical, its still possible to wound an enemy with a lesser weapon. The values are there as a demonstration of the weapon's potential. For instance, if a dmg 2 weapon struck an arm 4 armor, the mod would know that you needed a skilled strike to injure your opponent, we could then look at your post (since there's no dice) and determine if it was up to that kind of par.

-Warriors don't get bonus skills because they get extra equipment (like armor), and they are the only class that can multiclass into a new profession.

-These rules are indeed pretty set, but I feel that some fine tweaking can still be done. We'll deliberate further and get back to you all.

Rikash · Post by **Rikash** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:11 am

I'm going to go ahead and throw my lot in with Grothgar and Pale Warrior. :roll:

I feel that everything they've said is right on the money and I agree wholeheartedly. I would however like to add that the ability for our characters to become merchants, or political figures was something that I found extremely intriguing about the old game. The idea of becoming the head of a small noble house after making a name for myself (as a corsair captain, or so I hoped

, in my own case) and participating in the political intrigues of the city was a really neat idea. !wink! If we could have some sort of center city as before, even if not quite so large, that would still allow for for some of this sort of roleplaying. that would be an ideal. If you need mods, then I'm certain that you should be able to ge some from amongst some of the old Roleplayers as they start to trickle back in (I have no desire to mod myself, but I'm sure that a couple of the old posters would be only to happy to do so. *cough* Grothgar *cough*

.

Pale Warrior wrote:I don't want to be a 'TK421.' (I hope -someone- gets that reference!)

Druchii don't do white and shiny! :badh:

!razz!

Asperon thorn · Post by **Asperon thorn** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:16 am

Just so Z and Wraith don't think Grothgar's camp are in the majority. I would like to say that I like it the way it is. Start out close to the same with little customization, and allow for your player to grow and emerge into something unique. Not start out with some preconcieved notion and just play your cookie cutter character you always play.

Asperon Thorn

Alcing ragaholic · Post by **Alcing ragaholic** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:39 am

Grothgar wrote:Well… people must have known that soon I would get wind of this here RPG, or, at least, the filler that this is until the main RPG gets back up and running. I have looked through the rules and the character creation… and I have a few concerns that this system is way too restrictive for good roleplaying. I will list them out below. No particular order.

Get wind of? No one was planning on hiding it from you. It's even posted on the main page... sheesh.

As for the system being way too restrictive for good roleplaying, well, this system was only used for 2 years before the new system with no complaints of the sorts. We had about 125 players under 13 Mods at our peak, using this system, and using the other [newer] system, about 60 players under 1-4 Moderators. Compare those numbers, if you will. We had moderators leave because of the new system.

1) I have no problem with the number of points you get given for character creation… it has always been as such… but what I do have a problem with is the requirements for certain characters. I can understand a Shade having to start with Intelligence 3, because surviving in the wilds does take more “smarts” than living in your nice little city. The same being with Trainee’s and their Dexterity, after all, you have to be relatively nimble to prosper in that line of work.

However, Warriors should not be constrained by this because they are conscripted into the Army, they do not volunteer. To be a Shade you have grown up in the mountains, and those that do not have the necessary skills die. The same with the Temple, they are stolen on Death Night and those that do not make the grade are probably eaten by the Witch Elves. However, it is possible to get through your conscription without being strong… you could be rather smart and played off your enemies against each other, or you could have excelled with a light blade, something you did not need strength to swing.

Also, why bother having those prerequisites… because, again, it just limits what people can do with their character and then you end up with 50 people looking really very similar, and no-one wants that. Would it not be fun to play a dumb shade, one who had survived purely on dumb luck… or to play a clumsy trainee, who either has the strength for this to be overlooked or the intelligence to help people overlook it. Surely the rules should be there to allow people to express themselves… not be constrained.

So, lets ignore the 15 other points you can spend as you wish on the 4 other stats, and belly-ache about the 1 stat that is being restricted. Remember, we're not telling you what number you should use for that stat... we're giving you a minimum requirement. If you want examples... how's this:

Warrior 1:
WS: 2
S: 5
T: 4
D: 2
I: 5

Warrior 2:
WS: 5
S: 3
T: 2
D: 4
I: 4

Warrior 1 is strong and tough, yet slow and unskilled with his blade. However, he knew enough about strategy to get through training learning how to use his girth rather than bash at anything that moved.
Warrior 2 is an expert bladesman, with a fast sword and an almost equally fast mind. However, he is rather prone to getting hurt easily, and cannot stand prolonged combats.
So identical...

2) Equipment and Skills… why does everyone start with the same equipment and/or skills? This just makes them seem too similar again. Now, again, I understand why a Shade starts with their skills and why Trainees start with theirs… but why do Warriors start with no skills? They passed their conscription… surely they would have picked something up during their travails. Also… what happens if you want to play a Warrior with a bit of style, or a leaping lunatic who bounds off surfaces like they were the ground? This system does not allow this kind of freedom… and thus suffers for it.

"Sir, I know I'm in this unit of Spearmen, but I'd rather use a Draich if you please."

As for why warriors start with no skills? Equipment differences. Compare and contrast. It was done this way so no 1 group gets an obvious benefit over the other.

Warrior gets 3 pieces of gear, that are of medium calibre.
Shade gets 2 items of medium calibre, 1 weak item, and a skill.
Trainees get 1 item of medium calibre, 1 weak item, and 2 skills.

My character, Menthil, is a carefree kind of person, he likes his weapons light and he likes a lot of them. He does not wear armour and disdains the use of a shield, because it affects his swashbuckling technique. What I would propose is that Warriors (and Shades and Trainees, but Warriors Mostly) be allowed to trade in their equipment for skills, on a one for one basis. So, for Menthil, I would trade in the light armour and shield for Two Weapon Fighting and Parry, because that is his character.

Talk to your individual mod about it. This setup is so that no character is obviously better than another. Your mod MAY allow you to change something around, and still stay on par with the rest of the group in his opinion. You can always talk to your mod before the group starts.

Otherwise, no matter what character you wish to play, you start off the same… and where is the fun or roleplaying ability in that? All you will get is 50 carbon copies of each other, because the system does not allow any freeform thinking. And again, there will be many people wanting to use a Draich, or some other weapon other than the weapons they are given, and this does not allow them to do so. After all, whilst Trainees who use Halberds may be rare… who cares if it allows the player to express themselves in the way they wish. Otherwise you are stuck in the same old stereotypes, and no-one wants that because it is really boring.

I don't get this argument... what stops you from asking your mod to let you make a market run?
Player: Mod, I'd like to change some gear at the shop. May I?
Mod: Sure, as we're still in Naggaroth. Tell me what you want.
Player: Ok.

As simple as that.

From my previous point about stereotypes… why are some skill sets now mutually exclusive? What can I not have a Warrior trained in the arts of espionage… or a Trainee who is skilled in unleashing masses of arrows from a longbow, they are assassins after all, and it is always less dangerous to kill someone from range than up close and personal. Yes, some things should be only for certain classes, like the frenzy for Trainees, because that is part of the drugs they are given, and the way the are trained. But there is no reason why a Warrior could not learn to be stealthy… after all; stealth in a city and stealth in the wilds are two totally different things.

This is actually under trial... but the original idea was to make the different classes slightly separate. However, this may change upon further reconsideration. But for now, go with what we have. This will be reviewed.

3) I like the fact that you can only carry certain things now, it is much more realistic. However, if, as you have said, the better roleplaying the better chance things have of going your way… why bother to have Item Stats. Now, Range I can see why, even if there are not actual range increments, if you know that a Longbow has a better range than a Shortbow… then you are going to realise you are screwed and take cover. Speed… I can sort of understand this, but again, surely it depends on the skill of the person using it. I have a rapier in real life, and I am pretty skilled with it, but a dagger would be, in this world, faster. However, if I come up against a total novice with a dagger, and I have my rapier, that combat is only turning out one way.

The item stats are not as much for the moderators benefit as it is for the player. Those who are new to the system will want some kind of guideline as to what they are getting. So, the stats exist. Needless to say, a dagger can win against a rapier in the game... the stats are a loose system. Remember, no one is rolling dice or matching up numbers... this is a freeform system. The Stats merely allow us to integrate players, and to show the advantages a weapon might have over another.

So, for someone who is a supremo with a rapier will be even faster with a Dagger, but slightly slower with a long sword. See the difference? It isn't a set-in-stone number. It varies on the user.

So, Speed is relative, and should depend more on the skill of the practitioner than the items inbuilt abilities. Yes, a dagger is faster than a sword… unless you have only just got your hands on a dagger and you are facing the dojo master with his Draich… no matter how fast your dagger is, the master with the Draich is going to be faster than you. Now, onto the Power of weapons, this is a complete fallacy. If I, with my rapier(lets say Shortsword stats), come up against someone with a Draich then I am at an immediate power disadvantage. However, if the guy with the Draich swings and only grazes my skull, but my riposte has my Rapier through his heart… who has done the most damage?

Of course it is relative... why would you have a Strength stat otherwise. ALL THE WEAPON STATS ARE RELATIVE. They are only there to serve as comparisons when looking at the weapons on a rack in a store.

This leads me onto the armour… yes hindrance is probably a good idea… if anyone knew what it meant… but protection, well that matters not a jot. It does not matter how heavy the armour you are wearing if that big ass Chaos Warrior slices you in half with his oversized novelty axe. Also, you might get people saying the following: “Ha, you only have a Power 2 Shortsword… I have Protection 4 Heavy Armour… I am invulnerable!” Yes, that is true, until that power 2 Shortsword slashes your neck open… yes another argument against the use of Power for weapons. Also, it does not matter how much protection your Shield gives you if you do not manage to block the attack with it in the first place.

Pardon me for using the alternate spelling.

Hindrance

n 1: something immaterial that interferes with or delays action or progress [syn: deterrent, impediment, balk, baulk, check, handicap] 2: any obstruction that impedes or is burdensome [syn: hitch, preventive, preventative, encumbrance, incumbrance, interference] 3: the act of hindering or obstructing or impeding [syn: interference]

I hope that helps you Grothgar.

And once again... equipment stats are relative. Remember, even a S3 Spearman in WarHammer Fantasy can kill a Dragon with T6.

4) Just a small thing… but I notice that the skills do not include proficiencies for weapons. Does this mean that, as a Warrior… or hell, as any class… I can just pick up any weapon and use it with all the skill in the world? Seems a bit ridiculous to me… we have always had speciality skills… why do we not have them anymore? Because, otherwise, how are we to know what people are good with. Yes, two weapon fighting may allow you to have weapons with a power of 4 together… but if you have had no training with the old Longsword and Daggers… you would not use that combination of weapons… but with this system in place… why the hell not, you are not going to be penalised for it.

Yeah... darn it being a Fantasy world and all that. What was I thinking? Not injecting real world and real weapon mechanics into a Roleplaying game about an imaginary race in an imaginary world! Sheesh! I'm so stupid!

Right, I think that is it… I would like my questions and queries answered if you please… and not with “this is how it is going to be” because, these rules happen to be against the spirit of roleplaying… how are you supposed to play a role, and distinguish yourself, if everyone is a carbon copy of each other.

Your answers, as ordered, Sir.

As for how you can play a different role? If you do not know the answer to this, well, then you are not as clever as I initially thought you were. So what if you have 2 characters with identical stats? One can be a mean character with a bloodthirsty attitude while another can abhor the act of bloodshed unless necessary. One may have gained his I4 on the street, whereas another may have gained the same I4 through Book Smarts. A S5 character may excel in ranged combat, not preferring to get into combat, whereas a high Dex character would prefer the warmth of blood spraying on his face in melee combat.

If you want me to think for you, I will.

Thank You.

You are quite welcome.

Z

Grothgar · Post by **Grothgar** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:43 am

I can see your point of view Asperon Thorn, but role-playing is all about customisation. I can understand having these templates for the new role-players, or the people with less imagination than they think they have... but I am neither of those. I am, as many people are doing, carrying over my character from the original RPG, and my character does not fit into the preconceived notions of a Longsword, shield and armour. Menthil does not wear armour, or a shield, so would it not be rather silly for him to start the game with that equipment and then "suddenly" decide he does not like it? That seems more foolish to me than letting people have more customisation.

After all… what role-playing would that be? It would just mark my character out as a bloody idiot, because there he is throwing away all that equipment that he has been using for most of his life, whereas, if my character comes into it without armour or a shield, and the ability to parry and wield two weapons (even if he does not have two weapons) then that would make far more sense, and would fit the character so much better as well. Now, imagine another character concept, someone who wants to be in the Executioners… would it not make more sense for the character to start with a Draich, to show that he has mastered that weapon before being allowed (when he gains enough ranks) to join the Executioners.

Also, my point about the weapon proficiencies… going back to the Executioner above… would it not be a bit silly, and unrealistic, if the Executioner wannabe had used a sword his entire life and then, upon joining the Executioners… picks up the Draich and proceeds to wield it as though he has done so all his life. I really wish training was that easy, but it is not, even in a fantastical world such as the Warhammer World. I trained long and hard with a Rapier… I wish I could pick up a Longsword and be considered an expert in that… but that would take even more time, time that I do not have. No-one is that good that picking up any weapon is natural to them.

Alcing ragaholic · Post by **Alcing ragaholic** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:43 am

Pale Warrior wrote:I agree with many of the points Grothgar makes...

Since you agree with him, well, read my earlier post.

I don't want to be a 'TK421.' (I hope -someone- gets that reference!)

Your reference is flawed. TK421 was quite a unique character, if you think about it. Of course, I'm also talking about the person after the clothes swap. Shoulda used TK422.

Z

Grothgar · Post by **Grothgar** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:17 am

Well, most of the other moderators left because they could not cope with the new system… not because the new (or old as it could be now) system was flawed.

Onto the point you make about stats. I was making the point that there should be NO restrictions on the stats any character can have. After all, someone with high Dexterity, Weapon Skill and Intelligence should not need strength to kill someone, because they obviously favour the finesse weapons. These would include the Rapier, Dagger, Short Sword (depending on what kind of Short Sword of course), Katana, Sai… anything along those lines would work with a character that does not have a lot of strength. (The Katana would be a special case, depending on how well made it is… they can be bloody heavy, let me tell you) So why have restrictions at all?

I know why you have made Warriors start with no skills; that is pretty obvious when you review their equipment, but, as I have said, could I not, then, trade in some of my equipment for some skills. Could I not have, as the Trainee’s do, 1 Item of Medium Calibre (Long Sword), 1 Weak Item (Dagger) and 2 Skills of my own choice? After all, having Two Weapon Fighting and Parry, would be just like having a Shield and Light Armour. Also, relating to my point above, you do not need to have Strength to Parry… it surely helps, I will admit, but a good enough swordsman can angle the blade the right way so that strength does not come into it.

Also, I would not want to post my character in the character creation thread and then, once it is picked… change my character entirely just because the moderator said so. After all, that would be unfair, and I would have to change my character anyway… so it just seems like a waste of effort that could be put elsewhere.

How is a player supposed to change their gear, when they have no starting money? I do not know if you missed that out by accident, or it is a purposeful tactic, but I somehow doubt if your character could walk into a armourer and then just swap the Longsword for a Draich, because if an armourer did that, they would quickly go out of business. Simple economics do not back up that statement. Also, again, why not let a character start off with their weapon of choice, so they can actually post it in the character creation thread.

I do not understand your point about weapons being relative because, as I mentioned… if it is relative to the skill and the ability of the practitioner… then speed and power do not matter at all, even for comparison purposes. Yes, between two equally skilled individuals then, yes, a dagger would be faster than a Draich… but contests between the Druchii are very rarely between equally skilled individuals. So, if it is relative… then why bother with the stats at all, because they show no correlation to the skill of the practitioner. Again, a Draich cannot do more damage than a dagger… because they both give you equal chances of killing someone, if you are skilled in their use.

You may mock me about wanting weapon proficiencies in the game… but you forget yourself… that Warhammer is a low fantasy setting, grimy and gritty, not some high fantasy realm where everyone lives with the pixies and can pick up weapons, no matter what their background, and wield them with the skill of a master… hell, I am surprised there are basic infantrymen in your version of Warhammer, considering that everyone knows how to use every single weapons as soon as they pick it up.

There is a fine line between fantasy and stupidity.

Pale warrior · Post by **Pale warrior** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:07 am

Well, I can see the value in trying to establish a framework for the benefit of new an inexperiences players, and I think that the system is fairly well designed for that...except for one point.

That point is this: Players are operating under a moderator, who is judging their actions and determining if they succeed...Whether DE421 has the skill and speed necessary in a given situation to cut Orkwarrior's throat, or if PissedDruchiiA knocks PissedDruchiiB down to get mugged. The moderators take into account the roleplaying skill, post quality, character stats, and whatever outside circumstances (thunderstorm, wild melee all around, dark alley, etc.) will affect the outcome. After weighing these, the moderator determines of the character succeeds or does not.
Now, if those things are the things that really matter, which I gather they are, and weapon stats such as power and speed are relative to player skill in the given circumstance, then what do the weapon stats matter? If they depend on the player skill to define them for that specific instance, why not just skip them for being redundant? It's gonna be like Mordheim, where no one takes armor, because here everyone with any intelligence is going to aim and swing for the insta-kill spots on their enemies..the throat, namely. I saw it in the last RPG, most of the fatalities were enemies hit in the face, neck, even under the arm* once as I recall. Maybe the debate is unnecessary, but I just wanted to offer that. Whatever the settled system, I'll probably still play because I enjoy these kinds of things, but I feel that since I've been rping elsewhere for almost four years, with assorted D&D, video games, and other RPG's I am able to offer my input. I don't mean that to sound arrogant, if that's how it comes across; it sounds less arrogant to me that way than to just say 'Here's my input damnit' and not give anything to offer any credence to it.

*That was some good, unclean Druchii fun. I was cackling for days whenever it came to mind.

Alcing ragaholic · Post by **Alcing ragaholic** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:17 am

There is a fine line between fantasy and stupidity.

Yes, and there is also a fine line between enjoyment and obsession. If you wish to keep raising problems against the rules, go right ahead. I told you why everything is the way it is. After that, it is your choice to decide whether the system is worth bearing despite its many supposed faults, or whether to walk away.

I'm not telling you to take it or leave it. I'm telling you that this system has worked before. Why has it worked? Because every single group [until the final few] had great Moderator and Player interaction. This meant that the players and moderators worked out agreements that suited the both of them, and appeased everyone. Each group was an autonomous being, where no other moderator could come in and impose strict guidelines, as long as the spirit of the rules were in place.

You want a Warrior who is different from the rest? Fine. Like I said, talk to your moderator first, then post in the Character Creation thread with your special character, and write that the character is only available for that mod if he wants it. Once again, remember, a free-form system.

The point is this, Grothgar. I cannot appease you, as simple as that. No matter what I say or what valid/invalid points I put, you will not be happy with the outcome.

It is up to you at this point. If you wish to keep up the discussion, make a separate topic and bring up your issues there, or PM me or Wraith or any other Mods we have. If you feel I am doing a bad job as the RPG Admin, take it up with Kitrik or any of the DNet Admins, being Langmann, Vorchild, Dark Alliance, Thanee, and Lord Thalack. I will not be debating with you any further on this. You have made your points loud and clear. Consider that how you will, however, any more posts you make in this thread WILL be deleted for sake of decorum and neatness. I have underlined your options.

Z

Alcing ragaholic · Post by **Alcing ragaholic** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:31 am

Pale Warrior, you make some valid points.

The reason the weapons have stats is so that those who do not exactly know how good those weapons may be, or what they are in comparison to others. As for your credentials, that's a good thing to put... it allows me to weigh your views a little better.

Consider the weapon system mostly cosmetic, with a little emphasis put on them in situations where both characters might be posting at equal quality and skill levels. Almost a tie-breaker, if you will.

Z

Pale warrior · Post by **Pale warrior** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:49 am

Alright, that's good enough for me. I wasn't around for the first time this system was implemented, and so I had and still have no real measure of it's operation. So, in light of this and of your description of it, I'll rest my case(s).

Althalus · Post by **Althalus** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:37 am

Im posting on behalf of my brother whos acount was Adamon in the other RPG site, who is having a bit of difficulty registerign, bevcuase of an incorectly spelt email adress. This is what he said.

I think this is a real blow to the olf RPGers like me who have put a lot of effeort into our old characters, and now we are told that they are gonig to be completely whiped. The RPG was finally running well and then it is completely reset with new skills and rules. The new system was supposed to be an improvement on the old system and it was great in my opinion, but going back to restricted freedom is a great downer for me.

I would like to know if we are ever going to be using the old site again, and if we are going to be using th eold rules. If we are not i am seriously considering giving this RPG a miss.

Alcing ragaholic · Post by **Alcing ragaholic** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:32 pm

Althalus wrote:I think this is a real blow to the olf RPGers like me who have put a lot of effeort into our old characters, and now we are told that they are gonig to be completely whiped. The RPG was finally running well and then it is completely reset with new skills and rules. The new system was supposed to be an improvement on the old system and it was great in my opinion, but going back to restricted freedom is a great downer for me.

I would like to know if we are ever going to be using the old site again, and if we are going to be using th eold rules. If we are not i am seriously considering giving this RPG a miss.

You put effort into your characters. I agree. What about the moderators who put the effort in making the system? You know how hard and how long we worked on it? In fact, I was one of the founding 3 who made it a reality... between Sneaky, Aok[FcD] and I. So before you complain about the amount of time you spent on building up a character in an RPG you liked... I lost a LOT more from that system going down than you did. I lost my ruleset, my background, my stage... everything I wanted to have in a good RPG. We had tons of stories and situations planned out, had an invasion planned, we even had some really cool events that would occur. The lack of moderators made it nearly impossible for us to co-ordinate it and manage it successfully.

So, instead of trying to do the impossible again, I've decided to stick with this system until we get back to the old one (if that ever happens). It is up to you whether to play or not. I'd rather you did instead of debunking a system you haven't tried, but it's still your choice regardless.

Z

Wraith · Post by **Wraith** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:50 am

And I presonally would love to see Adamon return, along with Angrey Bob, Kormyen, Damned Prince, Zsa Zsa, and a few others I can't think of of the top of my head.

Shandari deathmoons · Post by **Shandari deathmoons** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:10 am

Personally, I really dislike the system: it's like being told 'you can have any color you want, so long as it's black'; there's the illusion of choice, but when you look at it closely enough to make a character, you realize that there's not much. Grothgar's already listed all my complaints, so I won't repost the rest of them...

I vastly preferred the old/new system, at first glance. However, since it is just first glance, I'm going to give it a shot. And, I'm also just that desperate for some RPing... if it turns out how I fear it will, however, I might not stick around for too long...