Question on Character Development, Skills and such

Dancingpigeon · Post by **Dancingpigeon** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:24 am

This is mainly directed towards Morvai and Tarbo, and perhaps to a lesser extent, Brinny (Welcome to the new RPG Mod).

Now, I know you guys are only just starting to get the system back to a stable state, but I was curious on inquiring whether or not you guys planned to keep the skills system how it currently is, and how you plan to give players the opportunity to develop their characters in the long-term (i.e. Skill/Attribute Development). Do you see it as being something that develops from the characters actions within the RPG? Interaction/Training with NPCs? Something that is only possible once a character completes a mission? Or will there be a redesign with a completely new system?

I don't want to come off as impatient, I would only like to know how much effort you guys think a player should go through for them to see some positive development in their characters. I'm not implying we should be playing to make 'Malekith Killers', but I do plan to be in this for the long haul for as long as my character lives, and I'd just like to know what I have to look forward to in the future

Let me know what you guys think.

Ilokir lúinwë · Post by **Ilokir lúinwë** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:53 am

DancingPigeon wrote:I'm not implying we should be playing to make 'Malekith Killers'

To fulfill that purpose, you need sorcerors... Did you recognise there aren't any skills to make a sorceror in the rpg...? This implies the Cult of Khaine already has a tight grip on Morvai and Tarbo..

Dancingpigeon · Post by **Dancingpigeon** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:51 am

*Shock! Horror!* Conspiracy revealed! Cultists beware, Morvai and Tarbo are on your scent.

Still, I'm interested to hear their responses

Post by **Tarbo** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:51 am

Morvai's the actual admin and policy maker here; I'm just a temporary reinforcement, an ad interim of sorts. Most likely, I'll make a lateral move back to the SAU once there are enough mods to handle the groups.

Personally, I'm all in favour to include some sort of magic. However, you should keep in mind that the main goal of the RPG is to be simple and straightforward, modelled towards the roleplaying part, and that including magic would require a new subsystem with careful tweaking and balancing. In all likelihood, it will require a complete overhaul of the current system, and that will take time; time neither of us currently has aplenty.

The "Character Upgrade" system is rusty and somewhat flawed to my taste. It's currently not viable to mix characters of different ranks/levels into a group, as there is a great discrepancy between their abilities: at each rank, a character receives 2 additional skills and 3 stat points. Which is just staggeringly much. Consequently, mods are hesitant to hand out these ranks, to which players will find their characters cannot advance and lose that spark that keeps RPGs going.

As it stands now, characters may be rewarded a rank after a sufficiently difficult mission, much like the experience system in D&D. And like in D&D, these pop out of nowhere and allow a character who has been urban all his life to develop wilderness and exploration skills. Vampire:tM required characters to find a mentor to teach them new vampiric powers, which I wasn't entirely happy with, either. The Elder Scrolls has a more sensible system, but requires so much bookkeeping that it is only viable when automated.

For the people in 'my' groups, including DancingPigeon, I'm using the out-of-thin-air method for gaining a rank, out of sheer ease-of-use for the players (otherwise, levelling up would be a quest on itself). I will, however, apply a common sense factor--for instance, someone who has not touched a weapon over the entire mission cannot invest all 3 stat points into Weapon Skill. That puts it somewhere in between D&D and TES.

In short: I'm aiming to make the "levelling" curve a little less steep and more incremental. It's still in the conceptual stages, but I can't work much on it before January 15th.

It's all still work in progress, but we are looking into it, and we'll have something sorted out before Group 8 gets there.

Dancingpigeon · Post by **Dancingpigeon** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:44 pm

Not a problem, Tarbo, and cheers for the quick reply.

So there is a leveling system set down? I wasn't aware of that... I was more under the assumption that mods simply handed out advancements in certain skills after certain acts or interactions with NPC's. Wouldn't this non-linear system be of more use? I'm more of a fan of the sort of system where players do what they think there characters should do, while the mods help those character advance in a way that suits how the character is being played. I'm not too concerned about the pace of the advancement, what I really wanted to know was if their was a system in place because the current posted ones are all so old.

The old system of having numerical levels was always flawed in my opinion. Stats should be bell-curved and very difficult to advance in (with it also being possible to temporarily and permanently lose points in) while skills should be a little easier to gain- at least the beginning ones, anyway... obviously they should scale aswell. This is why I think it should not be a set system, but rather more of a case of when the mod 'feels' like a character deserves a reward for a particular act or interaction with an NPC (Whether it be quest reward or training, etc).

Anyways, just thought I'd add in my two cents.

Post by **Tarbo** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:30 pm

The 'system' you propose indeed gives a more personal touch to a character, and heads more in the way of TES, which was meant to be more realistic than its peers. In that sense, I'm in favour.

It's the application I am worried about. You will be wholly dependent on your host for the advancement of your character. Of course, you'll be able to submit suggestions and requests, but still...

I used to handle a system like that, and it led to characters 'rusting' into a specific pigeon hole (no pun intended). While it makes it easier on the host to have players fill a specific niche, it also flattens the characters in the long run.

Numbers are needed to some degree to eliminate misunderstandings and subjectiveness. I use a lot more numbers in my groups than the current system displays, and I do roll for actions--though I fudge the results depending on how the player is roleplaying. It makes the system more objective and, most important to myself, gives the host a system to hide behind. "Don't blame me, blame the dice." The actual mechanics remain hidden so I can tweak them transparently when needed.

Perhaps we could cut somewhere in the middle: when a character gains another step, both the player as the host could have a number of points to allocate. This makes sure that repeated usage of skills and interaction would have their effects (as the host will pick those), and will allow the character to curve into a different direction when wished since he still has points of his own to spend.

Dancingpigeon · Post by **Dancingpigeon** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:15 am

Cool, its interesting to see into the mind of a moderator

Your suggestion of a 'happy middle ground' sounds good... there moderators allocation of points could be due to the characters actions, while the player allocated points could be a representation of the character trying to direct where he would like to branch out to.

You've satisfied me, Cheers for the lengthy answers

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:48 am

Daaaamn! I was looking through the weapons & skillz list and almost all of them have a high Intelligence and/or Dexterity requirements so I can't really advance (check out stat block in my sig) without either:

- Dex or Int increase before any new skill allocation- haven't found anything for level advancement or stat increase yet...
- Skills that are accessible to those less blessed than Bach or Einstein

Post by **Tarbo** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:11 am

If this is a question, it was answered above.

If it is a complaint, I'm not sure what the problem is. You're going to be better at fighting pûr sang. If you'd like to change your character, take it up with your host, and he/she will be happy to help you.

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:02 pm

Shtoopid

- shoulda read this thread more thoroughly. I couldn't find anything in the Sticky, so that's why I posted here...

Avalence · Post by **Avalence** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:08 am

Just a question. With the abilities list most of them need quite high inteligence and/or dexterity. I read the topic and i think only two used just strength and/or toughness. Intimidate and Shield bash. Maybe there should be a few more abilities for WS/Strength/Toughness. Even parry i think needed high dexterity so i think that disadvantages warriors in a way.

Just my thoughts

Morvai · Post by **Morvai** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:02 pm

the skill list wasn’t written by me, but by a person I trusted enough to not give them a second read. that was a mistake. although there is nothing wrong with the current skills I don’t quite agree on some parts.
to name but a few.
- ambidexterity should be weapon skill not dexterity
- parry should be weapon skill only
- two weapon fighting should be weapon skill only
- dexterity should be a ‘or’ in unarmed combat
however I’m already busy with changing the system. so the skills will get an update once I’m done with the system so that everything will match again.
however currently I’m still deciding which way I want to go with the system so the skill changes will have to wait for quite awhile. but since making fast progress in the current system is almost impossible (players would have to post multiple post everyday), I will have quite sometime to do an update before problems arrive.