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Discussing Magic 
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Well it's not just down to me, but I don't see a problem with things like that being allowed to happen...

It is likely going to be down to the individual situation though


Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:55 am
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Cool stuff, it's just some magic combos seemed so appropriate to me.

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Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:47 pm
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On the front of magic combos I would say that in Warhammer it's perfectly possible, after all magic is a raw form of energy that I would say could plausibly be combined with another. However, unlike other worlds, in Warhammer magic is an intensely dangerous, destructive and chaotic force that is hard enough to control when you're manipulating a single Wind. For that reason, I would say only the most skilled of mages should be succesful even an average amount of time. For that reason when combining magic I would suggest something like this: You must be a mage two levels higher than the level of the spell you are attempting to cast, and the chance of a miscast is doubled on the spell you are attempting to cast.

This assumes of course that the Levels in this are not the same as those in Warhammer :P In my opinion it would take a considerable amount of time for a 7pt mage to multiply his points by 10 XD

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Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:02 pm
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i'm sorry for the late response, but, although Javert is correct in saying that maybe all mages will allocate a great portion of their skill point on Intelligence, i don't think restricting toughness is the way to go.

Toughness should be a secondary skill in importance, as it is Dexterity for Disciples. A character uber intelligence but who had low toughness to privilege dexterity will have it's consecuences... I think that every skill is important to every character, so making the requirement on two or more would make characters to be too much alike each other.

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Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:59 pm
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As I'm sure you're all now aware, there is an RPG group now running to playtest these first ideas at a Magic System. We've gone over the basic introduction to the storyline now, and should be getting into some situations quite soon where magic can first be put into effect. Me and the players will keep you posted on how we find it is going, and how balanced it seems within the group.

Please feel free to post your own feedback if you're following the groups progress too.

It may also help if you give us some ideas of what it is you want from our feedback?


Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:13 pm
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I am enjoying the magic system we're using so far. It adds a nice extra element.

The one issue I have is that I am not entirely sure what the system is for determining sucess/failure that Kinslayer is using - not a big issue obviously but I dont think it was defined too well at the start.

I think picking different winds is a good idea - prehaps a couple should be removed however, I find it unlikely that a Druchii would be using the winds of light or life, so I might suggest eliminating them as options.

The other thing would be giving a rough idea of what can be done with each power at each level. I.e Death Lvl 1 - can kill small creatures, make someone mildly ill. Death Lvl 2 - can kill larger animals (dogs/cats/ginat rats etc), make someone ill, third level can kill one human type at a time, fourth can kill multiple humans at the same time.

Basically I think it comes down to needing more clarity innthe mechanics - but its working well so far IMO.

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Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:41 pm
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Nah, the druchii are sorcerers; they manipulate ALL the winds, and I find it hard to believe that just because they're evil they couldn't make use of light or healing.

As for the power level thing, I suggested that about a page back (I think) and it was vetoed for simplicity's sake.

I do think that the magic doesn't seem to have helped or hindered too much so far, even with the amount of spells cast... It actually seems pretty balanced.

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Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:00 am
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I think it all depends on the GM. Kinslayer seems to have put us against obstacles that are fairly balanced, and each of our magics seem useful albeit at different times. I do see some need for more concrete definitions of the kind of power each level would have.

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Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:37 am
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Such as...

Desmodeus wrote:
CONJURE FLAME
Level 1, 2, 3, 4
Mana 1, 3, 5, 8
Power 1, 4, 6, 9
The Mage conjures and manipulates magical flames, shaping them for his purpose, be it smiting his enemies or drying his rain-soaked cloak.
Level 1: Touch Range. Sparks gutter from the Mage's palms, warming them and igniting kindling or destroying secret messages. (Int 4)
Level 2: Touch Range. Curls of flame envelope the Mage's fists and drip from his fingers, crawling along his arms to envelope his body or shaping themselves into a weapon. (Int 4)
Level 3: Short Range. The Mage throws out his hands, a burst of heat flashing out before him to stun enemies or hang in the air as a barrier. (Mage only)
Level 4: Medium Range. The Mage conjures a projectile of fire and hurls it at his foes. (Mage only)
Level 5: Medium Range. The Mage launches a large ball, spear or dart of flames at his target to burst on impact. (Mage only, Int 5)


Again though, people felt it was too rigid.

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Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:45 am
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Prophet of Tzeentch
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Ok my thought after our first taste of magic use.

I feel that what we have done so far highlights some potential problems with the system, but also shows that they are not so great that they might not be mitigated.

First there is the matter of power, it seems to me that a mage using one (maybe two but in a usual RPG not for some time) law has too narrow a focus making them very useful in some situations but of little use at all in many others. Masked Jackal’s character for instance is perfectly good in a combat situation, but outside of that death seems to be a rather restricted law. Now for others this is not such a problem, with Chamon you can (as we have) open locks, but you can also plausibly seal things, use it in combat, especially against armoured foes, strengthen your allies armour or weapons extra. Though I suppose this is more a problem for the individual player rather than the system it’s self.

The other problem I foresee is the tailoring of RPG storylines to take the powers of the mages into account, after all there is no point taking beasts and then never encountering any beasts. Now this is a problem not for the person playing the mage but for the rest of the group who may well find themselves side lined. I think we need to try and avoid a situation where RPG's swing from a mage dominated section with a redundant group and a mundane focused section where the mage is all but useless. Ideally magic should be an additional thing in the arsenal which will be consistently useful but not make things too easy.

All of this (I think) is not particularly a problem for individual skills as the character is not defined by it and is also good at other things. A shade with the law of beasts for example isn't going to be too put out if they end up fighting elves because at the end of the day his main weapon is still his crossbow, a situation where he can use magic is a bonus.

That said most of these problems can be mitigated simply by having good players and a good GM. A mage with (for example) fire magic can probably do a great many things if they are imaginative in their use of fire and a good GM should be able to maintain the right balance.

Though I do think that we need to keep things very loose I do agree that come sort of definition may be needed for each of the levels, not a description of examples but rather a sense of the level of power they might bring about.

E.G. fire

Level 1: The character is able to great small amounts of flame for a few seconds at a time. The character may also manipulate existing flames in terms of movement and heat, but with limited control. Flares of a few feet, an increase or decrease of between 1-20 degrees (C).

Level 2: The character is able to create medium sized amounts of flame for a minute or so at a time or larger amounts of flame for shorter duration or smaller amounts for a longer duration. The character may also manipulate existing flames in terms of movement and heat to a greater extent and with a greater, though still limited degree of control. Sustained bursts of a few feet, for several seconds, an increase or decrease of between 1-40 degrees (C).

Level 3: The character is able to create large amounts of flame or heat for a few seconds, with the duration and heat variable depending on amount. The character may also manipulate existing flames in terms of movement and heat to a greater extent with good control. Sustained jets of flame varying in accordance with length and duration, basic shapes may be created, small objects created and sustained for midsized periods. An increase or decrease of heat of between 1-60 degrees (C).

Level 4: The character is able to create large amounts of flame or heat for several minutes, duration and intensity of heat increasing with smaller amounts, range ect. The character may also manipulate existing flames to a great extent with a considerable degree of control, jets of flame over a long distance, complex shapes, midsized objects may be created and sustained, increase or decrease in temperature of between 1-80 degrees (C).

Level 5: the character is able to cast flames or heat over a wide area, duration and intensity of heat increasing or decreasing according to distance, duration and area. The character may also manipulate existing flames to a great extent with near perfect control. Large and complex shapes or objects may be created and sustained. Increase or decrease in temperature of between 1-100 degrees (C).

That is by no means perfect, but hope it shows the kind of thing I am thinking about, it is not as eloquent or interesting to read as the other proposed examples, but it leaves things vague and allows players plenty of room for imagination and adaptation.

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Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:43 pm
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Sounds good Drainial, but I'd maybe cut off the two highest levels... Several minutes of substantial flaming for one cast seems even out of the reach of many Level 4 Wizards.

Jackal, Slortor, thoughts?

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Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:52 pm
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Prophet of Tzeentch
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Perhaps so, but although I would have to check I don't think anyone has ever actualy got five skills so it is probobly a purely academic point.

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Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:27 am
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There is that... Although, in such a case even having the skills would be wasted text. :p

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Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:34 am
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hmmm - i think prehaps we just need a very basic definition of what each level is in terms of power...

i.e. lvl 1 - can perform basic tasks appropriate to wind
lvl 2 - can perform slightly harder tasks, more basic tasks faster
etc etc

It should probably be down to the GM really.

The balance issue would be one for the GM as well - prehaps they need to state when recruiting exactly what they are willing to have in the way of magic. For example - Up to four levels of magic between up to three players. So if the first two players enter level 2 mages - then no magic for anyone else.

The only thing is that... i think is that the best way to use magic may well be to play as Drainal has and take one of the normal characters with magic on the side, so a shade with metal can melt locks for example, or a trainee with life could heal themselves of minor wounds... So its possible that we wont see that many higher level mages, because as Drainal said they are a bit inflexible, especially with certain lores.

This might be resolved if they were given a quarterstaff as basic kit so they have some melee attack and defense, as well as being able to attack from behind another fighter....
Personally Id like to see the quaterstaff, or some other kit options for the mage - with a just a robe and dagger there is nothing at all to suggest a mage can even survive a combat, let alone contribute usefully.

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Name: Khalia D'Vaarko (meaning: Khalia, property of Vaarko)
Age: 210
Height/Weight: 5'6", 8 stone
Other: no distinguishing features, barring the brand of a great house left wrist.
Class: Mage
Equipment: Robes, Dagger, Staff
Skills: Power of Ulgu, Power of Chamon
Stats: Ws3, S3, T3, D4, I5

lrnec wrote:
Reality and truth is more brutal than almost any fantasy game


Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:01 am
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Kinslayer has a system to regulate the power of the Level1 and Level2 varients of the winds, and he's enacted that system already...

The idea was to allow mages to be simply better at magic, enough so that they wouldn't be useless despite the lack of combat ability. That said, I haven't heard anyone suggest that they can't buy sword or whatever, and I don't see why anyone should. The dagger and staff is an appropriate starting point, but there's no reason a mage wouldn't learn some sword skills if he/she felt the need for it.

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Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:30 am
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Prophet of Tzeentch
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True, I am simply talking about the best way to articulate said system so as to allow it to be both fair and encourage innovation.

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Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:32 am
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I like the idea of the defined levels, and your way of doing it seems to leave it more open. Perhaps three broader levels would be enough? Had we used my method your character would only be able to issue sparks from her palms whereas yours actually has some utility at the 1st level.

I reckon we should take your system and revise it slightly (just to limit the power really) and maybe implement it in the next section of the story.

It should answer Jackal and Slortor's concerns about definitions too. Does it guys?

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Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:03 pm
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Yes, a basic description of what each level can do should be enough.

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Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:03 pm
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Alright guys, sorry for my long absence but I'm having a hectic week (hence the lack of a post in the playtesting thread yet). So, after reading up on the above I can offer my own opinions. I'm running the playtest group but that doesn't mean these decisions are mine to make, so let us know further thoughts please.

Equipment changed, so that a mage starts with Staff, Dagger & Robes.

Level 1 kept as is, for any class to be able to grasp BASIC magic.
Level 2 for mages only, to allow more advanced use of that wind.

So, although it may warrant clearer definitions for new players etc, it should be pretty simple. A level 1, mage or otherwise, can attempt almost anything they want. Learning the limits of their power should be part of the game, not written in as a rule at the start. So a level 1 Aqshy can attempt to ignite a whole room, but the consequences of attempting such a feat will likely be simple - a miscast. Likewise they can attempt to light a candle, and will almost always suceed. A level 2 can light a candle without any real fear of failing, and can also be bolder and try what the other mage did. He still might miscast, but has a higher chance of actually pulling it off.

A swordsman doesn't have limitations in that he can fight another elf but can not fight a dragon. He can do both, he is just likely to get hurt doing the latter. Likewise I think a mage should not be limited in what he can or can't try and do, only in whether he will succeed or not.

;)


Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:23 pm
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yeah - that seems to be a good way of doing it.

I think Kinslayers method is good - you can TRY anything, but you wont suceed with everything you try.

Glad to see the mages get a staff too - I did think they were being rather underequiped.

Looks good - lets keep it up.
On the subject of defined levels someone with some experience of using magic users, after a couple of RPGs could prehaps put up a list of what they/other party members managed to do with their various levels, in case people want a rough idea.

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Name: Khalia D'Vaarko (meaning: Khalia, property of Vaarko)
Age: 210
Height/Weight: 5'6", 8 stone
Other: no distinguishing features, barring the brand of a great house left wrist.
Class: Mage
Equipment: Robes, Dagger, Staff
Skills: Power of Ulgu, Power of Chamon
Stats: Ws3, S3, T3, D4, I5

lrnec wrote:
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Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:45 pm
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Sold (not much of a post, but there we are, its a good way of doing it).

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Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:29 pm
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So... Are the mages going to suddenly whip out staves as it's more of a playtest than a story, or will there be a story hook or piece of back-writing to tie it in, or are they doing without for now?

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Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:39 pm
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Well for story purposes I took the mutants cane.... best option I can think of unless Kinslayer has another idea.

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Name: Khalia D'Vaarko (meaning: Khalia, property of Vaarko)
Age: 210
Height/Weight: 5'6", 8 stone
Other: no distinguishing features, barring the brand of a great house left wrist.
Class: Mage
Equipment: Robes, Dagger, Staff
Skills: Power of Ulgu, Power of Chamon
Stats: Ws3, S3, T3, D4, I5

lrnec wrote:
Reality and truth is more brutal than almost any fantasy game


Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:22 am
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*shrug* Given the purpose of the story is for playtesting the mages, I'm willing to just pretend you always had them.

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Skills: Basic Stealth, Wilderness Lore


Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:24 pm
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Well the Mages now have staffs, simple as that really ;)


Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:07 pm
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