Mordheim: Druchii Warband, Alpha²

[Ansob.]

I'm positively against youngbloods. It'd probably make sense in Naggaroth itself, but this is the Old World, and I thoroughly doubt that just anyone is sent on a raid. Besides, it doesn't stick with our whole "we're |337!" role.
As for the Bloodshade (like the ring of that, actually), 0-1 sounds fine. I mean, after that, we still get Noble + 2 Lordlings + Sorceress or Hag Trainee + Bloodshade, which is plenty enough, and more importantly, the master scout (a tribal leader, remember), would probably not suffer any competition.

[Arquinsiel]

One bloodshade sounds right to me. Are we still limiting access to shades depending on him though?

[Jymset]

What is wrong with the Beastmaster? I think he has a lot going for him. Sure, in terms of usage, he will be another combat character. But he will make the whole warband more flexible. It will be another nice alternative to add some sort of animals.

Just a thought on the hounds - are they the stats for Chaos Hounds? Then they should be named as such. I like the idea - after all, in Warhammer 3rd edition (going back to the late 80s....), Dark Elf Beastmasters were in charge of A) Chaos Hounds and B) unmounted Cold Ones.

Would that be an idea, too? That one unmounted Cold One could be included, too. It is stupid, after all, but would get to use the Beastmaster's ld if within 6"? Surely this would not be too powerful (despite the S & T 4)?

The Cold One's Mordheim stats (mounted rules) are 7 3 0 4 4 1 3 1 3, it causes fear and is stupid. Now, 100 gc is probably way too expensive, seeing as it is of more limited use when used unmounted.

Fluff terms: well, really, don't you guys think a Beastmaster would be a standard member of any sort of expeditionary force? If the Dark Elves do have such great specialists at taming weird and dangerous animals, wouldn't they be a first choice to come along to hostile areas?

Right now, I've been out of the loop for a while, and have certainly not been an active member of this community, but (as I'm about to get back into Mordheim) I would definitely love to champion the cause of the Beastmaster and his 0-1 Cold One and 0-2 (or 3) Chaos Hounds! BTW: in the old, old rules, the Beastmaster was quite adept at both close combat and shooting.....

Now, on the other hand, the Bloodshade, well, you all are saying we need some "different" hero. But how can we make that one stand out from the standard shades enought? And, taking the whole warband into consideration (once again - that is the best reason for the Beastmaster - to include something other than "Combat Elves" and "Shooty Elves"), if the Bloodshade was to be included, it should really replace a Lordling rather than the Beastmaster.

edit: Just thinking more about the fluff - the Cold One could be the Beastmaster's pet, brought from Naggaroth, yes, indeed, the "Druchii's best friend!". What about the Chaos Hounds? I can see a Beastmaster on the Northern Borders taming the beasts he comes across. But bothering to take them into the Empire? Not all that likely?

Which really means that maybe instead we should go for standard Warhounds? The local animals that are bent into submission? Ok, they only cost 15 gc (see Witch Hunters), so they would truly only be fillers.....

[Arquinsiel]

Plus you can just buy them as equipment anyway. That's the problem we've been having with the beastmaster, the animals are hard to balance and this is a very small scale game here. Beastmasters are pretty rare even in fantasy. Welcome to the team.

[Jymset]

HI! So, I'm in? I am most flattered!

Yeah, it is a bit of a problem, those mounted rules, meaning that the CO is now available in trading, anyway.

What about using those improved stats found in the old "Hazards" section of the Lustria rules? Something like

8 3 0 4 4 2 1 2 6, cause fear, 5+ AS, stupidity (as published in Town Cryer, erm, 11 I think)

Of course that would mean that a Beastmaster should have a movement of 6 (as those Apprentices with the Hydra) - a special case scenario, if you will (or you could change the max stats - it's not like you have an option of rolling up a +1 movement advance anyway).

Would you agree though that the Beastmaster could very well have a valid spot in this warband? That it would make the whole warband more flexible / interesting? Without causing a loss of focus? At any rate, the option of Hounds of some sort should be retained.....


Another, totally unrelated point, which struck me while reading the original Alpha thread: the option of bows and/or black powder weapons was discussed and (rightfully) discarded. But what about standard crossbows? Once again, back in 3rd edition, these were open to Dark Elves. And these days, well, Mordheim doesn't always stick to the availability of WHFB (like crossbows for Orcs, spears for Dwarfs....). Basically, even Dark Elves are pragmatical. Of course, they will always prefer their refined repeater crossbows. But when going into hostile territory, I can see that one or two of the band will want to retain a primitive but more powerful weapon, for taking out those sluggish but very tough brutish monsters that could be encounted.

The Crossbow could even be placed just on the standard equipment list - Shades, the true snipers of this warband, will always want to choose the elegant repeater anyway! What do you think?

[Arquinsiel]

HI! So, I'm in? I am most flattered!

Meh, you contributed so you're on the team.

Yeah, it is a bit of a problem, those mounted rules, meaning that the CO is now available in trading, anyway.

That and if it's not bought as a henchman group then the beastmaster could just give it to a character who may then become mounted. It's kinda difficult to adjudicate.

Of course that would mean that a Beastmaster should have a movement of 6 (as those Apprentices with the Hydra) - a special case scenario, if you will (or you could change the max stats - it's not like you have an option of rolling up a +1 movement advance anyway).

I don't know if we'd be allowed change the max racial stats, more than one warband depends on it and it's a core rule.

Would you agree though that the Beastmaster could very well have a valid spot in this warband? That it would make the whole warband more flexible / interesting? Without causing a loss of focus? At any rate, the option of Hounds of some sort should be retained.....

Personally I don't like the idea of a beastmaster. I think that in human lands there's little to no use for a character that specialises in monster handling (bearing in mind that the origional warband was designed for mordheim). Apart from that they're a bit too valuable to Naggaroth to be let wander around the old world. Hounds can just be bought like the can for any human warband.

The Crossbow could even be placed just on the standard equipment list - Shades, the true snipers of this warband, will always want to choose the elegant repeater anyway! What do you think?

The equipment lists will be thoroughly looked over at some point. I think we already fiddled with them a bit earlier.

[Jymset]

That and if it's not bought as a henchman group then the beastmaster could just give it to a character who may then become mounted. It's kinda difficult to adjudicate.

Yeah, you're right. Which would mean that IF the Beastmaster remains and IF he controls a cold-blooded beast, it should be either the royal cold one from Lustria or back to the little Cold One Hounds, right?

I don't know if we'd be allowed change the max racial stats, more than one warband depends on it and it's a core rule.

Well, yeah, the racial maxs are in the rulebook - but then, apparently this warband's maximum has been aligned to 6th Ed's maximum T of 3, right (it's still T 4 in the Mordheim living rulebook)? And Beastmaster apprentices, Assassins and Anointeds all have M6. Well, not really the best examples, but still.....

Personally I don't like the idea of a beastmaster. I think that in human lands there's little to no use for a character that specialises in monster handling (bearing in mind that the origional warband was designed for mordheim). Apart from that they're a bit too valuable to Naggaroth to be let wander around the old world. Hounds can just be bought like the can for any human warband.

Well, to the civilized Druchii, the Empire would be a wilderness similar to Lustria, right?

But seriously, nowhere in the fluff, both old and new, did I ever get the impressions that Beastmasters were rare or valuable, like for instance Assassins or Sorcerors (Sorceresses as of 6th ed) - the latter is even included in the warband! It feels as if they are a standard school of training in DE society and warfare. I mean, what's with the Royal Hydra being transformed by eating its Beastmaster Apprentices?

So yeah, really, IMO the fluff would really support the BM. At least I would think it is more characterful AND more practical in game terms than a blood-shade of sorts. An Assassin would indeed be an interesting alternative, but really, that one is definitely to rare and valuable.

The equipment lists will be thoroughly looked over at some point. I think we already fiddled with them a bit earlier.

In this thread, or a new thread or behind the scenes?

Thanks for your kind replies - just tell me to shut up when I've blabbed too much about the Beastmaster - I just think it is by far the most colour- and USEful 5th hero that one could come up with!

[Arquinsiel]

Yeah, you're right. Which would mean that IF the Beastmaster remains and IF he controls a cold-blooded beast, it should be either the royal cold one from Lustria or back to the little Cold One Hounds, right?

Welcome to our dilemma.

Well, yeah, the racial maxs are in the rulebook - but then, apparently this warband's maximum has been aligned to 6th Ed's maximum T of 3, right (it's still T 4 in the Mordheim living rulebook)? And Beastmaster apprentices, Assassins and Anointeds all have M6. Well, not really the best examples, but still.....

Bah? The warband uses the elf racial profile in the main rulebook which let's us get upto T4.

But seriously, nowhere in the fluff, both old and new, did I ever get the impressions that Beastmasters were rare or valuable, like for instance Assassins or Sorcerors (Sorceresses as of 6th ed) - the latter is even included in the warband! It feels as if they are a standard school of training in DE society and warfare. I mean, what's with the Royal Hydra being transformed by eating its Beastmaster Apprentices?

They routinely get eaten, there's bound to be a demand on their time. I don't get the sorceress in some ways but you could say she, like the assassin, is but a novice.

In this thread, or a new thread or behind the scenes?

Can't remember. Here I think.

[Loflar]

Yeah, you're right. Which would mean that IF the Beastmaster remains and IF he controls a cold-blooded beast, it should be either the royal cold one from Lustria or back to the little Cold One Hounds, right?

...

So yeah, really, IMO the fluff would really support the BM. At least I would think it is more characterful AND more practical in game terms than a blood-shade of sorts. An Assassin would indeed be an interesting alternative, but really, that one is definitely to rare and valuable.

...

Beastmaster - I just think it is by far the most colour- and USEful 5th hero that one could come up with!

My opinion is, that BM would be a nice choice, if we were able to make him valuable to band and not too strong at the same time. Which we seem to be unable.

Cold One Hounds: in some earlier thread it was stated, that we have to stick to available GW models.

I agree, that BM is more characterfull that shade. But less practical, as shade is a hunter who can provide band with food. For example.

I don't think that assassin is an option. He might hire a band to help him with his job, but has no reason to belong to a band (if the band is not sent out to kill someone).

[Arquinsiel]

I don't think that assassin is an option. He might hire a band to help him with his job, but has no reason to belong to a band (if the band is not sent out to kill someone).

Plus he already exists as a hired sword. We could go the way dwarves did with troll slayers but that mightn't be the best idea.

[Jymset]

So, the Dark Elf Assassin would become "official" once this warband is submitted? Because if it doesn't (it is currently not listed in the canon on the Mordheim site), an inclusion in this warband would still be a possibility.

Not that I'm backing that one - I'm still all out for a Beastmaster!

Now, ok, yeah the dilemma of "Which beasts?" Has anyone actually given the Lustria Cold One a try? How much would it be worth in gc? Somewhat cheaper than the Kislev bear, I would think - same W & A, but less S & T, though obviously faster. Even a single one of those would add a whole new dimension to the warband, without making it overly munchy.

Has anyone playtested the hounds that are currently listed? Because, really, that would work fluff-wise, too. And I'm warming up to them by the minute - different and large enough compared to Warhounds to warrant a Beastmaster, yet a lot more user-friendly than anything we could concoct in conjunction with Cold-One creatures.

In terms of making the Beastmaster different, what about going into this direction: we could give him access to the strength skill section. Ok, hang on one second before you crucify me, these are the reasons:

A) really, the Beastmaster reminds me of the Kislev Bear Tamer. The Kislev BT is the only Kislev hero that starts the game with S4. Now a Druchii Beastmaster with S4 to begin with would be plain wrong. But giving him the strength skills would be a step in that direction.

B) Even though Beastmasters only have S3 in WHFB, this would still kinda sorta make sense - they do less battle, but their job really consists of a daily battle with Cold Ones, Hydras and possibly more! To further enforce this point and make the BM even more different, we could cancel his access to the combat skill section! Really, he would be nothing but a strong-man elf who relied on the way his body was honed by his daily job to get by. To reflect his mastery of beasts, he could start the game with a version of the skill "Strike to Injure" from the combat skill section (which he'd no longer have access to) - but with the stipulation that it only works against enemies that are subject to the "animal" rule.

C) Of course, if we go this way, we would have to delete the Dark Elf Special Skill "Powerful Build".

These factors combined would mean that the Beastmaster would definitely go into a very different direction than the other combat characters (though he would, of course, remain a close-combat hero). It would emphasize his occupation with animals/beasts, yet not make him overly complicated (just two special rules: "Strike to Injure" against animals; "Animal Handler" for whichever creatures we end up taking).


And yeah, a Bloodshade would make sense in the fluff, but really does very little the Shades don't already do.

Oh, and Arquinsiel: if you want to stay in line with the current Mordheim rulebook, we have to change the maximum stats given at the start of this thread - they clearly list the max T as 3.....

[Arquinsiel]

So, the Dark Elf Assassin would become "official" once this warband is submitted? Because if it doesn't (it is currently not listed in the canon on the Mordheim site), an inclusion in this warband would still be a possibility.

He's in the same lustria PDF as the current warband.

C) Of course, if we go this way, we would have to delete the Dark Elf Special Skill "Powerful Build".

That's likely to go anyway. It's not really civilised now is it? *raises pinkie*

And yeah, a Bloodshade would make sense in the fluff, but really does very little the Shades don't already do.

He would be a better version of a shade with access to shiney hero-specific gear and skills.

These factors combined would mean that the Beastmaster would definitely go into a very different direction than the other combat characters (though he would, of course, remain a close-combat hero). It would emphasize his occupation with animals/beasts, yet not make him overly complicated (just two special rules: "Strike to Injure" against animals; "Animal Handler" for whichever creatures we end up taking).

It might be an idea but it could end up making the beastmaster underpowered when getting skills later.

Oh, and Arquinsiel: if you want to stay in line with the current Mordheim rulebook, we have to change the maximum stats given at the start of this thread - they clearly list the max T as 3.....

Hrm... that's odd. I'll ask Ansob about it next time I see him.

[Ansob.]

Are we still limiting access to shades depending on him though?

Not in my books. We already have too little different troop types.
Anyway, problemes (the same ones which've prevented me from doing that damn third Alpha). Sorry, but I may not be able to do anything until Saturday (damn me, and damn life - hate the stupid thing).
On the issue of T3: can't check ATM, but the T in the "max stats" profile should be T3 (it used to be T4, in Lustria, but we changed the damn thing to keep it with current GW "all elven heroes be as resistant as common troops. We'll give you some more of the useless skils instead" policy). If it's anything other than T3, then it's a typo.
Powerful Build is gone, and I need to add Fey Quickness back in - just count it as being in for now.

- A.

[Arquinsiel]

Not in my books. We already have too little different troop types.

By limiting I meant the revised version of: no bloodshade == 0-3, bloodhsade == as many as you can afford/ 0-5/6/whatever......

On the issue of T3: can't check ATM, but the T in the "max stats" profile should be T3 (it used to be T4, in Lustria, but we changed the damn thing to keep it with current GW "all elven heroes be as resistant as common troops. We'll give you some more of the useless skils instead" policy). If it's anything other than T3, then it's a typo.

Mordheim is different, in the living rulebook elves can still get T4.

Anyway, don't worry about Alpha3, it happens when it happens.

[Jhaelrnya]

Mordheim is different, in the living rulebook elves can still get T4.

Got it in front of me, and yea, T4. I would definately not change that, if for no otehr reason than to go agaisnt published GW material. Screw 6 Ed crapy T3.

A Bloodshade would have acess to special Shadey skills no other shade could get. And the Long Lived rule would prevent any "normal" shades fgrom becoming heroes too quickly. I personally don't like a Beastmaster being in the Warband for the same reasons as Arq. I would rather, like other warbands, have just one "odd" character (the Sorc/Trainee) and the rest be combat related, be it ranged or close combat. The shade could have infiltration skills and better searching skills (similar to Dwarf and Lizzy ones). The Beastmaster Beasts dilemma I don't think can be fixed. It is sort of like "How to Fix Woodies". It just can't be done easily.

[Jymset]

So, I guess you don't think my suggestions about a Beastmaster's strength are a step in the right direction?

Please, please don't forget what a Bloodshade instead of a Beastmaster means: a compounding of blandness and blandness!

Bland #1: On the one hand, a Bloodshade would be a 4th hero who is basically just another member of the warband who happens to be superior to the henchmen!
Bland #2: On the other hand, the warband is going to be restricted (in terms of henchmen) to just standard elves, the only distinction between the two types being the ones that shoot better and the ones that fight better. So yeah, just elves, all of whom are at about the same level.....

The Beastmaster would change that. Arq has pointed out that with my suggestions, he may end up weak later on. Do you neccessarily think that is bad? I mean, he would be different. And compared to other Mordheim characters, still strong enough. In fact, yesterday I was thinking of this suggestion:
Drop his WS to 3 - making his statline the same as the Sorceress's. Really, he is about his skill with animals (and the strength that is necessary for that). And, make him the exception that stands out - by giving him a starting exp. of about 4 (same as the Hunter from Averlanders). It would be a very fair compromise between the idea of a special character and something like youngbloods, without actually including anyone who falls into the category of "incompetent".


Ok, I am going out on a very, very thin limb here: What about dropping the two Lordlings and adding two Bloodshades instead of them? I know that would take the emphasis of this warband into a new direction, but once again, a few points:

A) Who is goint to be charge of this expeditionary force? Do you see them as assembling a small, stealthy force, but then recruiting combat masters to lead them - ie, yeah, let's charge in (almost always being outnumbered) and kill them all! With swords! Or, rather - let's get a stealthy, versatile mix that can handle all problems. Yeah, honestly, I think a Beastmaster has its validity - how much of a distinction is a proud Dark Elf going to make between Lustria and the savage Empire? For all it's worth, there may be just as many beasts to tame there (including the odd human).

B) What with its Corsairs, this list already has competent fighters (they have just about the same attack profile as a Lordling), I don't think it would become too weak (if you think that, I would once again want to point you in the direction of the Averlander warband). Of course, that would mean that we would have to make Bloodshades better than normal Shades, ie give them either WS4 or BS5. Otherwise, this argument would be moot.

C) Not another point, but weigh it up. Which of the following is going to be more appealing: Noble, 2 Lordlings, Hag Trainee/Sorceress, Bloodshade OR Noble, 2 Bloodshades, Hag Trainee/Sorceress, Beastmaster?


But, either way, Bloodshade/Lordling/whatever or not, IMO one of the most appealing things about this warband full on is the Beastmaster. And his Chaos Hounds (or Cold One thingies).

[Arquinsiel]

Please, please don't forget what a Bloodshade instead of a Beastmaster means: a compounding of blandness and blandness!

But adding a bloodshade means we can have both pirates AND ninja in a single warband.

Bland #1: On the one hand, a Bloodshade would be a 4th hero who is basically just another member of the warband who happens to be superior to the henchmen!

The dwarf warband has static stats across the board except for beardlings.

Bland #2: On the other hand, the warband is going to be restricted (in terms of henchmen) to just standard elves, the only distinction between the two types being the ones that shoot better and the ones that fight better. So yeah, just elves, all of whom are at about the same level.....

The equipment lists will distinguish tham and corsairs might be getting a special rule.

C) Not another point, but weigh it up. Which of the following is going to be more appealing: Noble, 2 Lordlings, Hag Trainee/Sorceress, Bloodshade OR Noble, 2 Bloodshades, Hag Trainee/Sorceress, Beastmaster?

The first one, definately.

[Loflar]

I think that we are running in circles. I have made a poll to sort the hero issue out. Please, choose your choice here: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=35711

(And please, ignore mine, I just realized, that it is pretty stupid - too much different heroes. Can a vote be changed? )

[Jymset]

But adding a bloodshade means we can have both pirates AND ninja in a single warband.

If you show me how that will actually transfer convincingly in the rules, I'll be a convert! But the way I see it, a Bloodshade is not really practical unless you A) really make him no different to a Lordling with different equipment, B) make him an evil version of the Elven Ranger (which would be lame) or C) overburden him with special rules

The dwarf warband has static stats across the board except for beardlings.

Making it powerful but rather bland, right? I started 3 warbands (no, haven't done much with them yet) before joining this discussion - Undead, Averland and Orcs. All of these have quirks and variety. I think it makes it so much more interesting and fun.

The equipment lists will distinguish tham and corsairs might be getting a special rule.

Well, equipment alone would not be exciting. But really? Corsairs are getting a new rule? When are you going to hit us with that one? Can't wait!

The first one, definately.

I don't get you, honestly!

Anyone, is it possible to start two new threads?

1) to sort out the equipment list, once and for all

2) to give the Beastmaster a final try. Maybe if the people who are for one get a set of rules that are satisfactory, the others may accept it. Or, on the other hand, the supporters of the BM can use that thread to finally realise themselves that they won't get anywhere.

Really, I should start the 2nd thread. But, I'm new to posting here, I have no authority whatsoever. So, could someone else please do that? Pretty please with cherry on top?

[Loflar]

an evil version of the Elven Ranger (which would be lame)

I would prefer an evil version of Kislev Ranger.

Anyone, is it possible to start two new threads?

While I agree that we should break the discussion into specific threads, I also think that we should solve one problem after another, so we would not loose focus.

Current situation with my poll is, that 8 people voted. While opinions on beastmaster vary, everyone seems to want a shade. Therefore I suggest to start a thread about the <*>shade.

<*>: Insert your favorite bodily liquid here.

After this, we could focus on beastmaster and his pets, and if we will not find a suitable solution, then follow with search of henchman #3 (what about some drugged slaves?).

Really, I should start the 2nd thread. But, I'm new to posting here, I have no authority whatsoever.

Do it in a Druchii way. Power has to be usurped ;-)

[Mielkith]

Really, I should start the 2nd thread. But, I'm new to posting here, I have no authority whatsoever.

Most importantly, you are entitled to the same authority as any of us.
Secondly, there should be a new sticky for the Alpha3 up soon(ish). So I would just carry on here for now.

I am still using the Alpha2 list for playtesting purposes. Its been about 8 games so far and it is still neck and neck, which has to be a good thing as far as we are concerned.
Had a very atmospheric fight, Adept V Noble, good times.

It has been pointed out to me that Warhounds are severely over priced in comparison to the every day equipment animal, which has a few more stat points and 10gc less.

[Arquinsiel]

If you show me how that will actually transfer convincingly in the rules, I'll be a convert!

Corsair is synonymous with pirate.

Corsairs are getting a new rule? When are you going to hit us with that one?

It has been discussd. They may or may not be getting the ability to make a 4" diving charge instead of the usual 2" to represent their experience in boarding actions. Either that or re-roll the initiative test for climbing and jumping.

<*>: Insert your favorite bodily liquid here.

That is soooo wrong.......


Thanks for continueing the playtests Mielkith, your input is extremely useful.

[Mielkith]

They may or may not be getting the ability to make a 4" diving charge instead of the usual 2" to represent their experience in boarding actions. Either that or re-roll the initiative test for climbing and jumping.

just to clarify, that would be an I test for every 4" instead of the usual I test per 2". Since the maximum is 6" we may as well say only one test is needed.

Quote:

<*>: Insert your favorite bodily liquid here.



That is soooo wrong.......

I second this statement

Thanks for continueing the playtests Mielkith, your input is extremely useful.

Well, I am brilliant after all.

[Arquinsiel]

just to clarify, that would be an I test for every 4" instead of the usual I test per 2". Since the maximum is 6" we may as well say only one test is needed.

Basically when you make a diving charge you make an initiative test for every 2" height. If you land and there's an enemy model within 2" of where the model lands then you can charge it getting +1 to hit and +1S. Corsairs will either: be able to engage targets 4" away from where they land OR re-roll the initiative test for this and all jumping/climbing.

[Loflar]

The discussion seems to have died again, so I made a thread at http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=36136 to discuss the shady hero. Hope you will like it.