Mordheim: Druchii Warband, Alpha²

Discuss and participate in the development of the Mordheim Druchii warband here.

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Mielkith
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Post by Mielkith »

You could just rule that the beastmaster adds +2 to injury rolls against animals then to represent the higher chance of incapacitating them.

I don't see that being justified fluff wise. Its simple and effective but dosn't make alot of sense.

the beastmaster can charge enemies he does not see if they are not further then dogs's I distance from dog and beastmaster can see the dog.

And you can charge enemies you can't see anyway.

Im sure he means without the I test. We could say anyone within 8" of the honds count as being in line of site for purposes of charging. Call it bloodlust or something other then Sniffing. Its a bit plain though.

I do think something about controlling other animals is the right way to go. Its what a beastmaster is all about.
any enemy animal within 6" counts as having there leadership reduced by 1. Both the beastmaster and its rightful owner trying to control it, its bound to get confused.
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Post by Arquinsiel »

I don't see that being justified fluff wise. Its simple and effective but dosn't make alot of sense.

Look harder. The beastmaster knows enough about animals to either remove them from action straight away or to cow them to the point where they won't attack the beastmaster or any other member of the warband.
I do think something about controlling other animals is the right way to go. Its what a beastmaster is all about.

Personally I think the beastmaster doesn't make a lot of sense in Mordheim. In lustria it made some sense but not a whole lot. Really, how many monsters are there in the city that we need to capture?
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Post by Loflar »

Mielkith wrote:
the beastmaster can charge enemies he does not see if they are not further then dogs's I distance from dog and beastmaster can see the dog.

And you can charge enemies you can't see anyway.

Im sure he means without the I test.


Yes.

We could say anyone within 8" of the honds count as being in line of site for purposes of charging. Call it bloodlust or something other then Sniffing.

OK, I did not think about name. Sense of smell? But it is not bloodlust. I meant just the thing in which hunting dogs are trained - to show the hunter on what tree is the prey hiding.

The beastmaster knows enough about animals to either remove them from action straight away or to cow them to the point where they won't attack the beastmaster or any other member of the warband.
...
Personally I think the beastmaster doesn't make a lot of sense in Mordheim. In lustria it made some sense but not a whole lot. Really, how many monsters are there in the city that we need to capture?


You are probably right in both things, but I don't like it ;-)

I think that BM is an opportunity to have something different from basic warrior or wizard archetypes. And something unique. So I would not like to drop beastmaster, and I would prefer some special ability for him instead of plain combat roll modification.
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Post by Mielkith »

Look harder. The beastmaster knows enough about animals to either remove them from action straight away or to cow them to the point where they won't attack the beastmaster or any other member of the warband.


I can see what you mean. But animals are very different to one another, if he/she has learnt such a technique then wouldn't it apply to sentients?
I agree that a beastmaster does not fit in paritculary well. If we are to have animals as a henchmen choice then we can use one. We can drop animals and replace them with the warrior class but we didn't quite work that out. We can always have another crack at it.

Replacement for a beastmaster? Pain Technician, Slaver?
Most warhbands so not have 5 heros, but Druchii are too expensive, we need all 5.

So I would not like to drop beastmaster, and I would prefer some special ability for him instead of plain combat roll modification.

Agreed here to, I know we shoul be striving for something simple. But a beastmaster such a unique character, we have to chance to do something new and interesting with it. Thats if we keep the beastmaster.
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Post by Jhaelrnya »

Actually, I like the idea of a slaver. Maybe drop the BM, the dogs, and replace it with Slaver. The Slaver can give bonus money when Captured result comes up, and or increase the chance of a captured result, OR maybe this

When an enemy model is killed after a game in which the Slaver took part in and survived (during the recovery at end of game), on a roll of a 4+ they count as Captured as if the opponent had rolled a Captured result on the Hero Serious Injuries Table. The captured slave may not be ransomed back to the model's original warband, and can only be sold (or sacrificed if the warband contains a Hag Trainee). This counts for both hero and henchman models killed.

Or along those lines. Beastmaster doesn't really fit, where a Slaver does. The whole point of Druchii leaving Naggorond (other than to kill Asur) is to tkae slaves, right?
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Post by Loflar »

I think that during the fluff discussion it was settled, that DE do not visit Mordheim to take slaves (it is far easier to raid coastal villages) but to collect wyrdstone. But I do not have a problem with slaver.

Yet another "but". But ( <- that was it) my view of DE warband is more like secret force moving through enemy territory. I would rather see some hunter or scout hero with them. Called bloodshade, or clan tracer, or trapper, or I don't know - I was never good with names. He could have some ability similar to Kislev Ranger's Heart Strike, or Averlander's Setting Traps.

And a note about warriors replacing dogs. While I would learn to live with them, I don't think that this kind of elite force would include basic rank-and-file conscript. The problem is, that there is nearly no other choice. Harpies are unreliable beasts, BG and execs have no place here the same applies to all riders, WE are dangerous (you never know when this girl runs amok and decides to sacrifice a warband member, disregarding secrecy and security). And assassin would be more effective alone. Maybe that this was reason for introducing Cold One Hounds and beastmaster into Lustrian rules.
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Post by Arquinsiel »

I can see what you mean. But animals are very different to one another, if he/she has learnt such a technique then wouldn't it apply to sentients?

Yes and no, it's more about psychology than anything else. In the case of Mordheim though there's so many differeing psychologies amongst the sentient creatures that it just get's silly.
Replacement for a beastmaster? Pain Technician, Slaver?

Possibly some form of ranger might be interesting. A bloodshade or something. Maybe limit shades by having to have him in there too.
Yet another "but". But ( <- that was it) my view of DE warband is more like secret force moving through enemy territory. I would rather see some hunter or scout hero with them. Called bloodshade, or clan tracer, or trapper, or I don't know - I was never good with names. He could have some ability similar to Kislev Ranger's Heart Strike, or Averlander's Setting Traps.

And here I was thinking I was origional.
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Post by Ansob. »

The Slavemaster/Bloodshade issue is something we ought to discuss a bit more (and get an ebauche of stats and skills) before we decide to kick out the Beastmaster (and his wonderful S4 M7 hounds). However, seeing as we can't seem to decide on what skills to give the BM (and because it'd make something original), I'm all for the change (I'll just miss my 'hounds). Loflar has a point about the Slaver, even though I like the concept more than having a bloodshade (we can even stick to the same statline and model, if we get the Slaver) - I'll just say that profit's profit, and no decent Druchii is going to neglect a chance to get a few more slaves if he can. The skill that was suggested by Jhaelrnya was good, too (and damn people with unpronounceable and untypable names :P).

And yeah, let's just forget the entire "RnF trooper" issue. The question is, what should we replace warhounds with (we already only have three kinds of henchmen, which makes one if we drop the hounds)? We seriously don't want even less henchmen options (i.e. limiting shades because of the bloodshade is a non-no for me) - that would make the band plain boring. There's also the issue of the Slaver/Hag issue - who gets the slaves? We'd also have to limit his presence if we put him in (like the Hag/sorc issue).

Oh, and a quick one about Fey Quickness: d'you want it back in exactly as it was?
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Post by Arquinsiel »

We seriously don't want even less henchmen options (i.e. limiting shades because of the bloodshade is a non-no for me) - that would make the band plain boring.

Limiting shades based on having a bloodshade but adding warriors might be the way to go then. I like the idea of the warband having a master scout leading them into unfamiliar territory.
There's also the issue of the Slaver/Hag issue - who gets the slaves? We'd also have to limit his presence if we put him in (like the Hag/sorc issue).

That is true. Which is another point in favour of a bloodshade in my book.
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Post by Mielkith »

There's also the issue of the Slaver/Hag issue - who gets the slaves?

You know, that never even occured to me.

Oh, and a quick one about Fey Quickness: d'you want it back in exactly as it was?

Yes please. Where would I be without Fey Quickness? Highborn-less for sure.
45 Gold
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 3 4 3 3 1 6 1 8

Natural Stealth, Heart Strike, Mountineer
Natural Steath: Same as the shades
Heart Strike: Same as the Kislev ranger
http://www.specialist-games.com/mordhei ... /steps.pdf

Other skills I can suggest is infiltrate paired with Loner (immune to "all alone). A mountaneering skill where he/she counts as armed with rope and hook.

We could put a limitiation of shades that is lifted if a blood shade is taken. Shades rarely leave there homes unless called to war but will readily follow one of the Bloodshades. Can we get some fluff for these guys?
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Post by Arquinsiel »

I'd stick with the straight hero-stats (heck, we might even have a replacement for our fellblade here). Natural stealth is good but any other skills added on at startup will just overpower/make the unit really expensive.
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Post by Jhaelrnya »

Bloodshade
Basic Hero Stats (for an elf)
45 gold
Natural Stealth

Add to the DE skills Heart Strike, available to Bloodshades only.

And yes, Fey Quickness should be reinstated. I really need to to keep my Noble alive. T3 really amkes them easy to kill (common, 4's to wound with a bow?!?!).

Or, we can actually replace "Lordlings" with 3 of these, giving us our 5 heroes. That really puts hte stealth/assassin/hidden warband fluff into play when the majority of your heroes are shades.
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Post by Arquinsiel »

Are we basing the number of shades on having a bloodshade though? If we are they should really be restricted to a 0-1 choice or else we'll have to scale it somehow. Maybe 5 shades per bloodshade (meaning that to take maximum heroes you won't actually be able to use more than eight actual shades if I'm right) and maybe prevent shades being promoted when there aren't any free bloodshade slots?
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Post by Loflar »

I don't like basing number of shades on presence of bloodshade (and I don't like the word "bloodshade" - seems a bit silly to me).
Let's look at it this way: Noble goes to Mordheim. He visits shade village. He can hire some basic shade warriors, but there is also an expert hunter, who would be willing to join the band, but for higher price.

Or, we can actually replace "Lordlings" with 3 of these, giving us our 5 heroes. That really puts hte stealth/assassin/hidden warband fluff into play when the majority of your heroes are shades.


Or, we could have two of ... I will call them Trappers, and one Lordling, who could be scaled down a bit, thus becoming some equivalent of Youngblood. This way, we could get a command structure similar to Averlanders.

And about the dog issue. We could always do it in witchhunters way. They can have dogs without special character to control them.
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Post by Mielkith »

Are we basing the number of shades on having a bloodshade though?

I would like this but it could get messy. What happens when a blood shade is killed off and you have too many shades? I suppose you would have to sack them. I think bloodshades will ahve to be independant of the shades. Any special rules will encourage Shades over Corsairs and mystery #3, thus creating a shooting warband.

maybe prevent shades being promoted when there aren't any free bloodshade slots?

I'ld say no, I can see nothing wrong with a 4th bloodshade. With the Long Lived rule inplace I don't think we have to worry about it.

On the dogs. The Witchhunters are humans so are all familiar with dogs, Dark Elves, unless they are a beastmaster, will only of seen a chaos hound when fighting for there lifes. Without a beastmaster we cannot justify the hounds and vice versa.
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Post by Arquinsiel »

I don't like basing number of shades on presence of bloodshade (and I don't like the word "bloodshade" - seems a bit silly to me).
Let's look at it this way: Noble goes to Mordheim. He visits shade village. He can hire some basic shade warriors, but there is also an expert hunter, who would be willing to join the band, but for higher price.

Bear in mind though, that bloodshades already exist. They're unit champions.
I would like this but it could get messy. What happens when a blood shade is killed off and you have too many shades? I suppose you would have to sack them. I think bloodshades will ahve to be independant of the shades. Any special rules will encourage Shades over Corsairs and mystery #3, thus creating a shooting warband.
Well, the beasthounds leg it if the beastmaster is gone so logically the shades should too. Then again, why would they? Hrm... I don't want a shooting warband either though, which is why I suggested a way to maximise combat potential with the new skill.
I'ld say no, I can see nothing wrong with a 4th bloodshade. With the Long Lived rule inplace I don't think we have to worry about it.

It's unlikely to happen alright but you can't have more of a hero type than is already present and logically a shade that gets promoted becomes a bloodshade.
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Post by Mielkith »

It's unlikely to happen alright but you can't have more of a hero type than is already present and logically a shade that gets promoted becomes a bloodshade.

That is one way of looking at it but the shade will not be the same. By the time he is promoted who knows what he has become. If warrior is promoted in human warbands he should become a captain of champion, instead he remains a warrior.

maximise combat potential with the new skill.

We can still put that skill in. No one has rules it out as far as I know, it was/is still a work in progress.
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Post by Arquinsiel »

The thread kind of died and people started wandering off into tangents and bringing in minconcieved notions of real world duels. It's still in limbo. I think we're about due another summary thread actually.
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Post by Ansob. »

Arquinsiel wrote:The thread kind of died and people started wandering off into tangents and bringing in minconcieved notions of real world duels. It's still in limbo. I think we're about due another summary thread actually.


I'll ask Anaryin to stay at my disposition out of the goodness of his heart, then - I'll post a new Alpha next week (first week of the Spring holidays for me).
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Post by Loflar »

Bear in mind though, that bloodshades already exist. They're unit champions.


Yes, I know this. But it does not make the name less silly.

The Witchhunters are humans so are all familiar with dogs, Dark Elves, unless they are a beastmaster, will only of seen a chaos hound when fighting for there lifes. Without a beastmaster we cannot justify the hounds and vice versa.


I don't see why being human is necessary to be able to have dog. IMHO beastmaster is needed to get access to "elite" dogs.

And now I got another idea to save beastmaster. Instead of dogs, he could bring tigers. There are sabretusk models for OK, and there is even a real world justification - Ussuri tiger. This way beastmaster's presence would be worthy without other special rules, as he would bring pets stronger then dogs (maybe more limited: 0-2 or 0-1). Problem with henchanimal #3 would be also solved.

Arquinsiel wrote:I think we're about due another summary thread actually.


Or maybe for several threads, for different problems (list in general, beastmaster, dogs, shade-hero, new abilities ...) so we would not mix them together and forget one for another.

Edit: I see the ablity thread already exists. I forgot ;-)
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Post by Arquinsiel »

I don't see why being human is necessary to be able to have dog. IMHO beastmaster is needed to get access to "elite" dogs.

It's not, you can buy them as equipment. Exactly the same stats and cost as the witch hunter varient.

Basically we need another thread to pull things together just so we can re-examine everything and see where we're at.
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Post by Mielkith »

I don't see why being human is necessary to be able to have dog. IMHO beastmaster is needed to get access to "elite" dogs.




It's not, you can buy them as equipment. Exactly the same stats and cost as the witch hunter varient.


Yes this is true but besides the point which is that while Humans and Dogs can work together very well there is no such thing as a "Druchiis best freind".

Im going to vote no for the tigers, making the animal bigger and better will make a beastmaster more desireable but out in the battlefield he still serves no purpose but as a combat hero.

It has given me an idea for an outside project though, so thank you Loflar
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Post by Arquinsiel »

Yes this is true but besides the point which is that Humans and Dogs can work together very well there is no such thing as a "Druchiis best freind".

You get a cookie for that one: Image
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Post by Anaryin »

If you guys need another thing, just pm me ;)

For the record, no tigers for the beastmaster :?
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Post by Loflar »

Then it seems, that beastmaster became "persona non grata" (hope it's correct) and we might start to discuss the shady hero. How many of them? 1? 2? 3? IMHO 3 is too much.

1 goes well with the fluff - he is The Scout, hired by noble. It would be too hard to find another one of such quality.

2 leaves 1 lordling. In such case, I would scale lordling down and make him "druchii youngblood" for the pleasure of watching the baby grow and learn ;-)

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