A new skill for the Druchii Warband

[Arquinsiel]

Based on discussion here: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t= ... sc&start=0

It has become obvious that Druchii nobles would be likely to be superior in their use of two swords to other fighters.

Hence we have:

Expert Duelist
Such is the warrior's skill at dueling that he may fight with double his number of basic attacks when in close combat. He may do this only when fighting with two swords (including special swords) and he looses the normal +1 attack for using two weapons. The warrior's attacks must be devided evenly between the two weapons.
This skill is available only to druchii nobles and lordlings. They must previously have aquired the Expert Swordsman skill and this skill replaces the skill Combat Master for that warrior.

What do you think? Maybe add it to the new warband rules?

[Jhaelrnya]

Seems a little overpowered. With the fact that that could potentially give him 8 rerolling to hit attacks . . .granted, that is the extreme. But it is possible. I think the idea is fluffy though. So, maybe change it to he recieves an additional +1 attack when using two swords. That way he gets +2 attacks when using two swords, +1 for 2 weapons, +1 for them both being swords. I think that balances it out a bit. The only thing is, taking away the ability to get Combat Master takes away the ability to not have to take All Alone Tests.

[Silas]

And then add Frenzy

[Arquinsiel]

The only thing is, taking away the ability to get Combat Master takes away the ability to not have to take All Alone Tests.

That was the idea, I wanted it to be a severe disadvantage to taking it. Bear in mind though, that the re-rolls are only on the turn he charges and that in total he needs five minimum advances to get to eight attacks (three of them randomly rolled and unlikely to happen that easily). That said, your way is more balanced and prevents Silas' frenzy problems from happening.

[Mielkith]

How about he gets a re-roll of failed parries with two swords?

[Arquinsiel]

In addition or instead? We could always make that an entirely seperate skill although that might be going too far.

[Mielkith]

It is always something I thought we shoul'd be able to do and combat master has always been one of my favorite skills, it fits well with my less then plausible strategy.

If we want a skill that gives us a benefit to using two swords a parry re-roll is what I would like to have. Combined with comabat master it makes a good image of a cornered Noble fighting desperatly against multiple enemies, parrying every blow they send at him (or it could just be my over active imagination).
Though comparing it to the others it does seem a bit underpowered.

We don't have to get rid of combat master. Getting Expert Swordsmen skill first should be enough. We can always put...
Note:this skill cannot be combined with Combat Master
on the end

This skill can replace Fey Quickness. There are alot of people who have a problem with a 4+ save against combat, shooting or all of the above (despite my best justifications of it).

[Arquinsiel]

Well we haven't gotten rid of it, we've just superceeded it for that warrior. No-one else looses it. Should you choose your hero can have combat master instead. Personally I'd love to have a huge array of skills related to different fighting styles but that would be a little unrealistic.

[Mielkith]

I see, in that case I am in total agreement with this skill.

Personally I'd love to have a huge array of skills related to different fighting styles but that would be a little unrealistic.

We could always write some rules for these but leave then out of the submitted warband. Just for personal use.

Edit: Write/Right, damn confusing language.

[Ansob.]

This skill can replace Fey Quickness. There are alot of people who have a problem with a 4+ save against combat, shooting or all of the above (despite my best justifications of it).

But I don't! A simple way to keep Fey Quickness (which is a skill I like, a lot) would be to downgrade it to 5+ combined, as opposed to 4+ (a 5+ wards is already very nice). Changing it now...
I personally prefer Mielkith's version of it. Would the reroll apply to both parry attempts (two swords = two parries, IIRC)?
It doesn't really need to replace anything - why not just add it on in our list of skills (that gives us six skills to pick from - we could get rid of Powerful Build, I suppose, if six is too many)?

[Mielkith]

downgrade it to 5+ combined, as opposed to 4+

You mean one skill that covers both step aside and dodge?

(two swords = two parries, IIRC)?

I am pretty sure a second sword confers no more bonus besides an extra attack.

[Ansob.]

You mean one skill that covers both step aside and dodge?

I mean that the combined result of Fey Quickness + Doge/Step Aside is 5+, not 4+, which makes sense.

I am pretty sure a second sword confers no more bonus besides an extra attack.

Two swords grant you the exact same thing as a sword and buckler (I can't remember if it's an additional parry or a parry reroll).

Edit: two swords and a sword + buckler grant the same effect: parry reroll. I therefore propose that this skill allow the reroll to be transformed into a second parry, if the player so wishes. Basic explanation: years of training with two swords have made that the Hero is nearly ambidextrous - he can parry two different attacks with his two swords, as opposed to using both to parry a single attack.

[Garbidge]

The change to fey quickness makes it useless, as step aside or dodge already provide 5+ saves. a skill gives a 5+ to shootin or close combat, or a 6+ to both; otherwise fey quickness would be overpowered in comparison
and,

If your model is armed with a buckler and a sword, you may re-roll any failed parries once. A model armed with two swords can still only roll once.

So the skill would allow you to re-roll with two swords as well as with buckler and sword.

[Arquinsiel]

If we were to go the parry route then it would allow the warrior to re-roll a parry attempt.

[Jhaelrnya]

When the warrior is armed with two swords, he can re-roll a failed Parry attempt, just as if he was using a sword and a buckler. Note, he still only gets one Parry per turn.

Like that?

[Arquinsiel]

Personally, I think that re-rolling parries for being armed with two swords/dwarven axes should be one of the main rules of the game. Personally though, I prefer the idea of getting an extra attack or two out of my hero than being able to maybe parry one. It just seems more useful to me.

[Jhaelrnya]

Then maybe my idea of that when armed with two swords, the hero gets +2 attacks instead of the normal +1 for an additional hand weapon.

[Orteo]

The fluff you have for this skill is expert duelist. Anyone who ever has done any swordplay knows that there is a huge difference in technique used when fighting one opponent vs fighting multiple opponents. Thus a skill called expert duelist should really only apply in a combat involving only two models. Here is something off the top of my head that would be a little more dynamic than +1 attack.


Expert Duelist: When in a combat involving only one other model and using only one sword, the warrior always gets at least one more attack than the opponent and may parry an extra attack.


When in a duel, having a second sword in your off hand isn't really an advantage. It slows you down and reduces your effectiveness with your primary weapon to the point that a skilled opponent will have little trouble defending from the extra attack. So an expert duelist skill should really use one weapon. It might be nice to have a skill that allows a warrior to go up against many weak opponents at the same time, but I think that should be seperate from the Expert Duelist skill (or maybe instead of).

[Loflar]

Expert Duelist: When in a combat involving only one other model and using only one sword, the warrior always gets at least one more attack than the opponent and may parry an extra attack.

I like the idea of giving some advantage to character armed in a realistic way, but isn't giving him one more attack than the opponent too strong?

[Arquinsiel]

The fluff you have for this skill is expert duelist.

The name for it is expert duelist, the fluff is taken form the druchii army book and the forthcoming darkblade novel. If it bothers you that much the name can always be changed to master swordsman or somesuch.

Anyone who ever has done any swordplay knows that there is a huge difference in technique used when fighting one opponent vs fighting multiple opponents.

Yes, it's easier for one thing.

When in a duel, having a second sword in your off hand isn't really an advantage. It slows you down and reduces your effectiveness with your primary weapon to the point that a skilled opponent will have little trouble defending from the extra attack.

Erm.... have you ever tried it? It's incredably easy to use two swords, there's a whole extra layer of defense you have constantly there to parry anything that comes at you before you even begin to consider how easy it is to set up feints when you have an extra blade.

I like the idea of giving some advantage to character armed in a realistic way, but isn't giving him one more attack than the opponent too strong?

Not necessarily, as most opponants will only havve one or two attacks anyway. It could get mental though when the campaign reaches high levels of experience.

[Loflar]

When in a duel, having a second sword in your off hand isn't really an advantage. It slows you down and reduces your effectiveness with your primary weapon to the point that a skilled opponent will have little trouble defending from the extra attack.

Erm.... have you ever tried it? It's incredably easy to use two swords, there's a whole extra layer of defense you have constantly there to parry anything that comes at you before you even begin to consider how easy it is to set up feints when you have an extra blade.

You are probably very experienced or very talented fencer. But most of people have to learn how to use both hands effectively. Two swords is a different story then sword and dagger, or sword and buckler, and even those have to be learned. See Giacomo diGrassi's book (I saw it on WWW somewhere; he was Italian fencing master of 17th century), he writes there, that people, who are good with sword (OK, rapier) in either hand, can start to learn using two.

It could get mental though when the campaign reaches high levels of experience.

That's what I meant.

[Ansob.]

You are probably very experienced or very talented fencer. But most of people have to learn how to use both hands effectively.

You do realise that this is elves we are talking about - creatures that live for several millenia - and dark elves, to top it off - elves who have dedicated their entire lives to arms. These aren't even just any dark elves; they're heroes. I think it's safe to assume that fighting more efficitently with two weapons is something within the reach of a dark elf noble...
Anyway, about the skill - giving him one attack more than his opponents is a no-no for me. This isn't Confrontation - we're not aiming for insane-feat-of-arms type characters; if that's what the people want, then I'd advise the people to go into their local independant retailer and grab some Rackham models - they're of far superior designe to the GW ones, are much more fun to paint and have a much more interesting game system to boot. I still think that this skill should just replace Fey Quickness and allow the character to switch his parry reroll for an additional parry if he so wishes - it would make sense (being able to parry two attacks with both swords as opposed to a single attack, proof of superior skill and of being used to honourable duel), besides being useful if outnumbered and not too powerful.

[Arquinsiel]

You are probably very experienced or very talented fencer.

I consider myself reasonably proficient.

See Giacomo diGrassi's book (I saw it on WWW somewhere; he was Italian fencing master of 17th century), he writes there, that people, who are good with sword (OK, rapier) in either hand, can start to learn using two.

Ah, right. Well that explains me then, I'm a trained ambidexterous.

You do realise that this is elves we are talking about - creatures that live for several millenia - and dark elves, to top it off - elves who have dedicated their entire lives to arms. These aren't even just any dark elves; they're heroes. I think it's safe to assume that fighting more efficitently with two weapons is something within the reach of a dark elf noble...

Agreed, these are the elite of our society, itself an example of martial perfection.

Would an extra attack and a re-rolled or extra parry be too much then? I still think it should probably replace combat master but maybe not. If anything, we can afford to lose the powerful build skill over the fey quickness, it's pretty much useless.

[Ansob.]

Would an extra attack and a re-rolled or extra parry be too much then? I still think it should probably replace combat master but maybe not. If anything, we can afford to lose the powerful build skill over the fey quickness, it's pretty much useless.

Yeah, I still think it'd be a bit too much. I'd rather leave the "extra attack" business - that's kind of bland, if you ask me (no offense). The "exchange reroll for additional parry" is a bit more original and makes a little bit more sense than the extra attack (how do you explain that - he can hit faster? Perhaps he can weave his way through his opponent's guard - in that case, make that his hits either cannot be parried, that you can force a parry reroll from the enemy or that he can cancel a single parry of his). My point is, we need to stick with one single effect (and the "extra attack" is a bit of a waste, when we have the possibility to go ahead and make something original).
Powerful build should go, yes. So should Fey Quickness. I just think we should replace the both of them with new, original and useful skills.

[Loflar]

You do realise that this is elves we are talking about - creatures that live for several millenia - and dark elves, to top it off - elves who have dedicated their entire lives to arms.

OK, you have a point. I got lost in realism.

Well, several millenia of fighting... only fighting... those guys must be pretty boring companions ;-)