A new skill for the Druchii Warband

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Arquinsiel
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Post by Arquinsiel »

(how do you explain that - he can hit faster? Perhaps he can weave his way through his opponent's guard - in that case, make that his hits either cannot be parried, that you can force a parry reroll from the enemy or that he can cancel a single parry of his).

Basically he's learned to use both hands at once. It's hard to do but you can eventually start using them

Powerful build should go, yes. So should Fey Quickness. I just think we should replace the both of them with new, original and useful skills.

I like fey quickness, it's a full skill slot into a 6+ ward save. It's not bad.
My point is, we need to stick with one single effect (and the "extra attack" is a bit of a waste, when we have the possibility to go ahead and make something original).

You may have noticed that several of the core skills include multiple benifits (such as combat master, with +1 attack and immune ot all alone).

The possable waste of a skill was why I wanted to have it scalable so that every attack on profile gained you an extra attack for the offhand weapon.
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Post by Cenyu »

What about the "Sniper" special skill? I´m not sure whether it is from the Shadow Warriors list or an unofficial Dark Elves/Witch Elves list.

It lets you remain hidden even if you shot that turn if the target you shot at fails an initiative test.


Just a thought.


I playtested the overhauled list yesterday and created a shooty warband with 7 warriors (5 heroes + 2 shades, 5 RxBs) and let them play against a rather advanced Skaven list of a friend of mine. Well.... several random happenings including a Chaos Spawn which more or less apperared in front of my wannabe-sniper Noble and Lordling made the shooting almost useless. I failed to wound any of the rats with the bolts. Just my Sorceress witch-flighted across the battlefield and killed four enemies in close combat AND managed to survive the skirmish. Weird. Unfortunately I lost because my friend passed a rout test on a six. Just wanted to... tell. Err.
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Post by Ansob. »

Cenyu wrote:I playtested the overhauled list yesterday and created a shooty warband with 7 warriors (5 heroes + 2 shades, 5 RxBs) and let them play against a rather advanced Skaven list of a friend of mine. Well.... several random happenings including a Chaos Spawn which more or less apperared in front of my wannabe-sniper Noble and Lordling made the shooting almost useless. I failed to wound any of the rats with the bolts. Just my Sorceress witch-flighted across the battlefield and killed four enemies in close combat AND managed to survive the skirmish. Weird. Unfortunately I lost because my friend passed a rout test on a six. Just wanted to... tell. Err.


That was... one hell of... a game... :shock:
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Post by Mielkith »

Sorceress killing things in CC? Invinsible rats? Something dosn't quite add up.

I would shy away from shooting skills. We have already removed the rule disallowing ranged weapons on the fellblades ( I can't quite remember what it was called, Melee specialist?) We must avoid a shooty warband less we come too close to are Ulthuan counterparts.

Asadh Vehlta, hows the next Alpha coming?
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Post by Cenyu »

Okay, I get your point. Sorry for only superficial reading into the overhaul threads.


What about a skill that lets a hero make advanced use of the Darksteel Blades?

It could be a skill similar to the Dwarven "Master of Blaes" (just switch "Dwarven Axe" and "Dark Steel blade" in the relevant area).... or perhaps a skill that lets you disarm your opponent on a successful parry roll (because your hero managed to catch the weapon with one of the proteusions and twist it out of the opponents hand.

Just a thought.


And yes, that game was definitely screwed up. Nothing worked as it was supposed to work. But hey... it´s Mordheim. In five rounds we had four random happenings. Screaming walls, chaos spawn, a maneater tree and a warp storm. Wyrd. :D
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Post by Arquinsiel »

OFf topic but sounds like it was really cool.
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Post by Ansob. »

Mielkith wrote:Asadh Vehlta, hows the next Alpha coming?


Would it be acceptable if I said it was forgotten due to homework, beestings, trying to organise meeting up with LSU in Paris, other events and heaps of not so fun and quite random surprises of the bad kind? :oops:
All it is is compilation work, so I can get it done tomorrow should I remember. *cough* On topic.
I quite like the idea of making advance used of Darksteel weapons - what's Master of Blades do (don't have the dwarven list handy)? And IIRC, there's already a skill that allows you to disarm (damn me misplacing my Mordheim stuff on my HD - I need to look for it tonight or tomorrow morning; I admit to being a bit out of phase with Mordheim recently :().
Anyway, we need to get back on track with this new skill idea - I gather we should get another boom in activity on the main body once I get my job done (*cough*), but we need something to replace Strong Build...

- A.

(PS: and damn you, people who know me, call me Ansob. - I'm not going to have to change nicks again, aye? If so, LSU's going to have to skin me... :lol:)
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Post by Arquinsiel »

Don't worry about it, I'm bogged under too.
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Post by Mielkith »

damn you, people who know me, call me Ansob

I was torn between the two, but I figured you changed the name for a reason. I did prefer A Neutral Shade of Black, I could be sure I was pronouncing it correctly. Point taken for the future.

Master of Blades, a very good skill as I have just found out. When parrying to roll equal or above instead of simply above. In addition when using two weapons (not bucklers) with the parry rule you get two parries (both on equal or above).

I like it.
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Post by Jymset »

Well, I'm posting on this thread, because Cenyu put me to shame on the Alpha3 thread - this one came and kinda died before I really started swamping this board with input. So I never paid enough attention to this.

Several ideas:

First, back on the track of "Sniper" - well, for one, Shadow Warriors are, as of now, unofficial. Not legal anymore. We could very well make it our skill and noone could do anything about it. The list is shade-heavy (compared to the army). Do you remember Warhammer 4th & 5th ed? I miss my BS5 Scouts..... :( We were the first to have them, you know? It used to be a case of the Dark Elves being rightfully feared as one of the deadliest missile armies in the whole Warhammer world. Remember that excellent story in the old army book of a group of shades killing a whole regiment of Silver Helms.... A, sweet, sweet nostalgia.....

*wipes away tears and snaps back into business mode*

Apart from that, we have Corsairs, we have Witch Elves (hopefully soon to be HenchWOmen). We have high initiative. Special CC equipment. There are *lots* of things going for the CC department in the warband. The simple Sniper skill would not suddenly set us on the path of shootyness.


Now, the Expert Duelist - I CANNOT BELIEVE NOONE HAS THOUGHT OF THIS!

1) First of all - no, a 2nd sword is just an extra attack. No reroll for the parry, unlike with a buckler. A 2nd sword only makes sense for Expert Swordsmen.

2) So, rerolling the parry is a viable skill

3) Add in another simple phrase: The parry is successful if it is equal to or greater than the highest to hit score of his opponent.

What do you think? This makes the odds of a parry very good. Of course, it won't really help against multiple hits...... But it definitely enforces a feeling of a CC expert.
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Post by Ansob. »

jymset wrote:HenchWOmen


Keep that going, and I'll start thinking you're a woman.

jymset wrote:Now, the Expert Duelist - I CANNOT BELIEVE NOONE HAS THOUGHT OF THIS!

1) First of all - no, a 2nd sword is just an extra attack. No reroll for the parry, unlike with a buckler. A 2nd sword only makes sense for Expert Swordsmen.

2) So, rerolling the parry is a viable skill

3) Add in another simple phrase: The parry is successful if it is equal to or greater than the highest to hit score of his opponent.

What do you think? This makes the odds of a parry very good. Of course, it won't really help against multiple hits...... But it definitely enforces a feeling of a CC expert.


The problem I have with that is the fact that you can already get a parry reroll by simply having a buckler (my bad on the two swords issue). This is why my proposed version for Master Swordsman/Expert Duelist/Duelist/whatever we decide to call it is as follows: as opposed to making it grant a parry reroll (which is what you want), I propose that a model with two swords be granted two parries.

An extension (i.e. added to the two swords = two separate, different parries) of this, which needs discussion: perhaps this skill could also grant a single parry with a weapon other than a sword (i.e. axe = one parry, great weapon = one parry, etc.; buckler + dagger = parry reroll, etc.). This part can be dropped (because it's a bit far-fetched - I only advocated its inclusion because swords are already way too favoured in Mordheim), but I definitely think we should have the Expert Duelist skill in the list, and have it the way I propose it over the parry reroll. Yes, it makes having two swords very good, but I don't see that as a problem.

Comments? If not, I'll be including it in the list... :P
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Post by Jymset »

Hehehe - I am German. Emancipation has gone way overboard, especially at Uni - you will find things like the German equivalent to "HenchWOmen" all over the place in any sort of official notices..... Bleh....

Anyways - let's talk business about those skills: I agree with your qualms about the parry reroll. It ain't much of a skill when you could just have a buckler. But, considering that "Expert Swordsman" is the prerequisite for this skill, two swords suddenly become an option. Whereas they were just silly beforehand.

What you suggest is nifty and a good skill - but unfortunately leaves the door open to many, many loopholes.

Ok, a parry works against the highest to-hit roll of the enemy attacks. Assume the enemy attacks twice, rolling a 4 and a 5. What do you do? Do you declare a parry against each one? And what if you roll a 5 and then a 4? Did you just parry once? Or not at all? How would this work out.

Effectively, it would complicate game-play to an extent I'd consider a hindrance. A reroll would be more practical. Think of it: reroll to hit on the charge with both weapons (Expert Swordsman being the prerequisite). Reroll your parry. Not a bad deal.

But my main point from above is: the fact that you could parry (with a sword) on a roll of an equal or greater number. Not just a greater number.

Basically, even if the enemy rolls a 6 to hit, you'd have a 1/3 chance of robbing him of a hit.

I know this isn't exactly the multiple-combat thing you were thinking of, but it A) works without any great problem and B) makes two swords a fearsome HtH combo.

And, no, I'd strongly advise at giving other weapons parries - it really doesn't feel right, does it?
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Post by Loflar »

Well, I am unable to comment on Expert duelist, since I got lost in suggested changes, but I will react to ANSOB in A3 here:

Stealing ideas is a bad idea - we're better off inventing our own skills


OK, then I have two ideas, both combat and non-shooty:

Stesso Tempo
If enemy fails at least one to-hit roll in close combat, model gets one more attack.

Reasoning: Fencer can (for example) dive below enemy blade and strike at the same time.

Melee Master
If fighting more then one enemy model, one enemy model (of your choice) can not attack and your hero can not attack it.

Reasoning: Experienced fighter can get tactical advantage by choosing a position in which some enemies block access to him for other enemies.
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Post by Ansob. »

Okay, ditch the other weapons parry idea - it does feel wrong. Never mind.

jymset wrote:But my main point from above is: the fact that you could parry (with a sword) on a roll of an equal or greater number. Not just a greater number.

Basically, even if the enemy rolls a 6 to hit, you'd have a 1/3 chance of robbing him of a hit.


I'd misread (actually, just missed) that part of the skill. In that case, why need two swords? We could simply apply this to all parry rolls - it's basically a +1 to your parry roll (but keep it worded like it is now).

Expert Duelist - prerequ. Expert Swordsman - parry succeeds on roll of equal or higher opponent's attack roll.

Loflar wrote:Stesso Tempo
If enemy model fails at least one to-hit roll in close combat, model gets one more attack.

Reasoning: Fencer can (for example) dive below enemy blade and strike at the same time.


The Italian name needs to go, of course, but it's a nice skill. Possible replacement, needs discussion. Not the subtle wording change, though.

Loflar wrote:Melee Master
If fighting more then one enemy model, one enemy model (of your choice) can not attack and your hero can not attack it.

Reasoning: Experienced fighter can get tactical advantage by choosing a position in which some enemies block access to him for other enemies.


But in this case, he's forsaking all his attacks to block a single guy. It's useful when combined with other models (i.e. the hero distracts the enemy and his friends move in for the kill), but it's a bad compromise in 1v1. It could be a replacement if we change it slightly (though I still prefer the first one), to the 40k parry rule - lose an attack and target model loses one too (bot not to a minimum of one?).
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Post by Loflar »

A neutral shade of black. wrote:
Loflar wrote:Stesso Tempo
If enemy model fails at least one to-hit roll in close combat, model gets one more attack.

The Italian name needs to go, of course, but it's a nice skill. Possible replacement, needs discussion. Not the subtle wording change, though.

Well, the (Tilean? ;-) name is just what this is called in real fencing. But if someone has a better idea, I don't have problem about it. About the wording - in fact it probably needs some further explanation, because the new attack may appear out of order in combat. So I would change it even more:

If enemy model fails at least one to-hit roll in close combat, model gets one more attack. This attack is always performed, even if the model was struck down, stunned, or taken OOA.


This represents the situation, where you succesfully dive under enemy's blade, thrust your sword into his heart, but do not notice the coming dagger... You are both dead.

A neutral shade of black. wrote:
Loflar wrote:Melee Master
If fighting more then one enemy model, one enemy model (of your choice) can not attack and your hero can not attack it.

Reasoning: Experienced fighter can get tactical advantage by choosing a position in which some enemies block access to him for other enemies.


But in this case, he's forsaking all his attacks to block a single guy. It's useful when combined with other models (i.e. the hero distracts the enemy and his friends move in for the kill), but it's a bad compromise in 1v1. It


I repeat: "If fighting more then one enemy model". Your attacks can of course be freely distributed among other enemies involved.
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Post by Cenyu »

I like this rule, it sounds like a nerfed and more sensible version of Tyrion´s "Riposte" skill.

Not too overpowered, but a nice representation of Druchii fencing style.
I suppose it can only be used once per close-combat phase, even if fighting against multipe enemies?
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Post by Loflar »

Not being a HE expert, I was surprised, that Tyrion has a "Riposte" skill. It is an Italian word, BTW ;-)
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Post by Ansob. »

Loflar wrote:I repeat: "If fighting more then one enemy model". Your attacks can of course be freely distributed among other enemies involved.


My bad - I read "...and your hero cannot attack." as opposed to "...attack it." :P

Stesso Tempo has my current pick for now - just with a name change and an nth reword. :P
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Post by Cenyu »

How about "Counter Attack" or "Feint"?

An italian term somehow does not fit to a Druchii warband... but that´s just my subjective point of view.
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Post by Loflar »

Just a bit of naming guidance. I have looked in the Italian dictionary. Stesso Tempo means "at the same time".
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Post by Ansob. »

Cenyu: I like both so far - and Loflar, "At The Same Time" sound a bit off for a skill name. ;)

Counter Attack, or Feint? I think Feint goes better with the Druchii spirit of trickery and subtlety.
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Post by Loflar »

It was not a suggestion of a skill name, it was translation of Italian term.

Arq could help here, as he is both English native and fencer. If you want an English skill name, I would suggest, for lack of better ideas, "counterstrike".
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Post by Ansob. »

A neutral shade of black. wrote:It was not a suggestion of a skill name, it was translation of Italian term.


Yeesh - joke, hence the ";)"

Loflar wrote:Arq could help here, as he is both English native and fencer. If you want an English skill name, I would suggest, for lack of better ideas, "counterstrike".


Too many... other connotations for those of us who use our PCs for gaming, I'm afraid. I'm still pushing for Feint, as it goes even better with subtlety et al.
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Post by Loflar »

A neutral shade of black. wrote:Yeesh - joke, hence the ";)"

Yes, it was one of possible explanations. And I was tired, overheated - normal result of a day in the office...

Too many... other connotations for those of us who use our PCs for gaming,

Do you play Heroes of Might and Magic?

I'm afraid. I'm still pushing for Feint, as it goes even better with subtlety et al.

I don't see Feint as a good name, as it does not describe the manoeuver. If I was trying to simulate a feint with Mordheim rules, it would be something like: "You voluntarily strike last in a combat, but for the turn, your WS and S is increased. Cannot be used during a charge or against charging opponent." I.e. you pretend a weakness to lure your opponent into situation, when you can strike with devastating effect.
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Post by Cenyu »

Loflar wrote:
A neutral shade of black. wrote:
Too many... other connotations for those of us who use our PCs for gaming,

Do you play Heroes of Might and Magic?


Hehe. I guess ANSOB was meaning the popular (meh :-/) Half Life modification Counter Strike when he talks about "connotations". ;)
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