Heroic shade in Mordheim

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Loflar
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Heroic shade in Mordheim

Post by Loflar »

Current situation in my poll ( http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=35711 ) shows, that 11 of 13 votees wants to include a shade-hero in DE warband. So I think that we can start to discuss details.

I went through the A2 thread and found two related posts (by Mielkith and Jhaelrnya). To sum them:

Bloodshade
45 Gold

Code: Select all

 M WS BS S T W I A Ld 
 5  3  4 3 3 1 6 1 8

Natural Stealth

Other suggested skills:
Heart Strike (Same as the Kislev ranger),
Mountaineer (counts as armed with rope and hook),
Loner (immune to "all alone")

There was also an idea to bind presence of this guy to number of shades available (either allowing to include them at all, or raise their number above 3).

Any comments? Stats or price alterations? Other skills? And what to do with the other skills? IMO they are too nice to drop them, but having half of Druchii special skills reserved for one hero seems a bit strange.

I have also another skill: Set Traps (as Averlander Bergjaeger)

We should also make some one-paragraph fluff about him.

Finally, I think I should also explain my personal issue with bloodshade here.

First, I find the name just plain silly. OK, GW decided to make this word for shade champion in Warhammer. When I play, I prefer to use my language, so I try to translate the names. Translation of "shades" can be, with some effort, used (although I usually stick with "scouts"). Bloodshade cannot be translated in a usable way. There is also no need to suppose, that the hero in Mordheim is the same guy as the one in Warhammer. So I think that calling him Hunter, of Master Scout, would be much better.
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Jhaelrnya
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Post by Jhaelrnya »

The Dwarven and Elven skills that aid in the search of Wyrdstone would be appropriate. I think that a master scout brought along would be used primarily for finding enemies and finding extra loot rather than lending support in a fight. Although, he would have to be a good shot with a crossbow, right? Can't hunt without it.

I think the biggest problem is going to be skills. He cannot become too powerful, or have a ton of extra skills. Granted, he could have up to 3 special skills, much like the Dwarf Troll Slayers. But more than that is excessive. Although he can come with one or 2, his point cost would have to be increased. There is a chart somewhere in the MLRB about skills too, so we don't even have to figure that out from scratch.
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Post by Scourge of ulthuan »

Ive not played Mordheim for a while, and I've never used or played against a Dark Elf warband. But surely he should be Weapon Skill 4, especially since he is a hero?
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Re: Heroic shade in Mordheim

Post by Ansob. »

I'm going to use devscript here - don't feel like breaking it all up.

Loflar wrote:Current situation in my poll (http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=35711) shows, that 11 of 13 votees wants to include a shade-hero in DE warband. So I think that we can start to discuss details.

I went through the A2 thread and found two related posts (by Mielkith and Jhaelrnya). To sum them:

Bloodshade
45 Gold
Price needs discussing after we've sorted everything out, but 45GC looks more or less okay for now.

Code: Select all

 M WS BS S T W I A Ld 
 5  3  4 3 3 1 6 1 8

He's a Hero - WS4/BS4 makes him a clone of our Lordling. WS3/BS4 sounds a bit weak, though (the Hag has 5/3 - perhaps make him 3/5 in that espect? After all, moving + shooting at long range + repeater shot is -3, and we want to make this guy a scout, which means he moves).

Natural Stealth

Other suggested skills:
Heart Strike (Same as the Kislev ranger),
Mountaineer (counts as armed with rope and hook),
Loner (immune to "all alone")

These need in-depths discussion, so I won't go into them right now.

There was also an idea to bind presence of this guy to number of shades available (either allowing to include them at all, or raise their number above 3).
No. Our henchmen selection is already limited enough as it is. This is the last thing we want.

Any comments? Stats or price alterations? Other skills? And what to do with the other skills? IMO they are too nice to drop them, but having half of Druchii special skills reserved for one hero seems a bit strange.
I think we need to limit ourselves to two starting skills - Natural Stealth and another.

I have also another skill: Set Traps (as Averlander Bergjaeger)
This sounds nice. I wouldn't mind Natural Stealth + Set Traps - but seeing as a cap of two skills is necessary (including NS), thorough discussion is needed. Keep in mind, though: NS + something else is effectively one skill, as NS is the shade trend skill which marks him as a shade hero.

We should also make some one-paragraph fluff about him.
Leave that to me.

Finally, I think I should also explain my personal issue with bloodshade here.
First, I find the name just plain silly. OK, GW decided to make this word for shade champion in Warhammer. When I play, I prefer to use my language, so I try to translate the names. Translation of "shades" can be, with some effort, used (although I usually stick with "scouts"). Bloodshade cannot be translated in a usable way. There is also no need to suppose, that the hero in Mordheim is the same guy as the one in Warhammer. So I think that calling him Hunter, of Master Scout, would be much better.

But see, the thing is, the Master Scout is the Bloodshade. It's just a Drukh-Eltharin to English transposition of the term that translates roughly as "First Scout," in the same way that a captain is a captain, not a "man who commands X men." See what I mean? I know you dislike the name, but it gives people their bearings, and I find it sounds cool. :)


Since someone brought the issue up, it might be a good idea to get this discussed and reach some form of agreement before the end of the week.
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Post by Loflar »

Jhaelrnya wrote:Although, he would have to be a good shot with a crossbow, right? Can't hunt without it.


Sorry, I don't understand this. He already has BS 4. His hunting abilities could be enhanced with Heart Strike. What's the problem?

Jhaelrnya wrote:I think the biggest problem is going to be skills. He cannot become too powerful, or have a ton of extra skills. Granted, he could have up to 3 special skills, much like the Dwarf Troll Slayers. But more than that is excessive.


I completely agree. Actually, now when I looked at Kislev ranger for Heart Strike, I also noticed her Cloak. Nice thing... And Shadow warriors have a Sniper ability... Now you suggest the Seeker skill... I think that we have enough of skills to make a shade-only warband ;-)

Scourge wrote:But surely he should be Weapon Skill 4, especially since he is a hero?


I don't know. But, to have facts, I made a quick comparison of WS and BS:
Suggested shade hero: 3 4
Shade of A2 list: 3 4
Lordling of A2 list: 4 4
Shade of WFB: 4 4
Bloodshade of WFB: 4 5
Shadow Walker of Shadow Warriors band: 5 4
Elf Ranger: 4 5

Hmm... looks that you are right ;-) What others say?
Edit: I see that ANSOB already said ;-)
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Post by Jhaelrnya »

Actually BS5 would not go amiss. It promotes keeping him on the move, and then when he finds a nice place to hide, he hits what he aims at.

Sorry, I don't understand this. He already has BS 4. His hunting abilities could be enhanced with Heart Strike. What's the problem?


No problem, just a statement. Although Heart Strike is not a given, as we may opt that one out for a more stealthy, scout skill. Plus, as already stated, BS 5 might be a better option...
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Re: Heroic shade in Mordheim

Post by Loflar »

A neutral shade of black. wrote:Other suggested skills:
Heart Strike (Same as the Kislev ranger),
Mountaineer (counts as armed with rope and hook),
Loner (immune to "all alone")

These need in-depths discussion, so I won't go into them right now.


OK. To stimulate the discussion, I suggest yet another ability:

Scout: Allows reroll on scenario selection table.

Rationale: Scout goes ahead, looks for trouble, and allows you to choose your battles, avoid ambushes etc.

Weakness: Works only if players choose the scenario by rolling on the table.

Or, alternatively, the warband could count as having a map, rolling before every battle to find out its today's quality (table at pg 39 of LRB).
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Post by Jymset »

A small tangential question:

What is this design group's intention for the status of the Lustria Dark Elf Assassin?

Is it to become one of the select few of "official" hired swords?

If yes, cool!
If no, well, maybe including some of his tricks would be the way to go for this Shade hero (after all, in Warhammer 6th edition, there has been the implication of a strong affinity between Assassins and Shades)....

....and I have just realised that my crappy uni-library terminal does not even support Acrobat reader probably, so maybe someone else could look him up?

I was also finally going to start a Beastmaster thread today, but this changes the situation. Well, that means you guys have the chance to shout a collective "NO" before I even get started! ;)
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Post by Ansob. »

jymset wrote:What is this design group's intention for the status of the Lustria Dark Elf Assassin?


As far as I'm concerned (but I'd advise you to check with Arq and the others), the intention was that he become indeed official, just like the cold ones and all that kind of stuff from the Lustria supplement. Sure, it needs some reworking, but we'll do that last.

(Yes, my Internet is back and it's decided to work. No, the thrid Alpha isn't done yet. Please don't kill me. Will you believe me if I tell you I'll do it Monday? [Can't tonight - going out; can't tomorrow - granfather's birthday. :roll:])
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Post by Gnosis »

Alex, if you want to write a small piece of fluff for this, check out what I have written for the second chapter of the RPS. Could be of some use to you, though completely unofficial ;)
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Post by Loflar »

A neutral shade of black. wrote:(Yes, my Internet is back and it's decided to work. No, the thrid Alpha isn't done yet. Please don't kill me.

OK, I was always merciful ;-) In fact, I think that A3 could wait until we have clearly defined heroes.
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Post by Ansob. »

Damnation wrote:Alex, if you want to write a small piece of fluff for this, check out what I have written for the second chapter of the RPS. Could be of some use to you, though completely unofficial ;)


Half of the fluff in the current Alpha is "unofficial" due to it being written by me. ;)
Did you just come here tracking my posts, Monarch (er, Damn ;)), or are you joining our devteam? :P

Loflar wrote:OK, I was always merciful ;-) In fact, I think that A3 could wait until we have clearly defined heroes.


Really? (I get to live a little longer? Drats.)
Arq? You who's been waiting for my long overdue ass to get moving for such a while, d'you agree? Or should we get the Alpha-cube'd done, sort the heroes out and incorporate them in a fourth Alpha?
In actual news (the human race was doomed to extinction tod- no, wait. Sorry), my spelling sucks. Sleep deprivation does that to you.
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