The Hero warband - witch elves as henchmen?

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Ansob.
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The Hero warband - witch elves as henchmen?

Post by Ansob. »

Sorry for making an Nth thread, but this needs to be said before I forget it. :)

Compiling the Alpha 3 (and all the glorious two hours it took me to do so :roll:), I realised something - once we reintroduce the Beastmaster and create the Bloodshade, we'll be having six heroes to pick from (Noble, Lordling, Hag Trainee, Sorceress, Beastmaster and Bloodshade), when most other warbands only have three (Thrall, Necromancer and Dregs; Captain, Champions and Youngbloods; etc.) Okay, they're limited to 0-1 for the most part and two of them are now mutually exclusive, but am I the only one with the feeling that we might just be getting carried away with all this Hero stuff, trying to represent the entire Druchii race?

In short, that we're being affected by the "OMG Gav Thorpe made the dwarfs and he playz them so theyre broked?" syndrome (i.e. being Druchii players, we're trying to make the über-list as opposed to being practical)? That we might just have to go back to SG's original Leader/Underlings/Mage/Other composition (ours being Noble/Lordlings/Sorceress/Beastmaster)?

Think about it, for a second, before crying out "Heretic!" ;)

This would:
- realign us with SG's original stance and make this list blander (in a... well, not good, but not necessarily bad either way);
- limit our work (we drop the Bloodshade entirely... or something else I'll mention later), thus speeding up the process;
- solve the "too many Heroes" and "everywhere at once" issues that I see popping up;
- allow us to resolve the "not enough henchmen" issue.

This still gives us five heroes if we wish to have them (Noble, two Lordlings, Beastmaster and Sorceress), two of which are much, much more powerful than the others' (Sorceress and Beastmaster beat Youngbloods any time). It does slide the focus away from individuals towars a more homogenous warband (like most warbands in Mordheim, save a few which are generally centred around less characters), but is that a bad thing?

Why am I saying it allows us the leisure to solve our henchmen problem?

Someone (I can't remember who, but the Omnimessiah's blessing on the lad) mentioned the idea of having a 0-3 witch elves selection in the warband.
*waits for cries of "Heresy!" to die out*
Why am I suddenly turning in favour of this? Because:
- whilst the Hag Trainee and Sorceress' positions of power do not allow them to work together (rivalry, people, rivalry), nothing really opposes the Temple to the Convents except mistrust, and a sorceress and some regular witch elves would surely accept to work together under "pressure" (;)). This wouldn't even require to modify the fluff much;
- this is an idea that we could apply to the Bloodshade. Presto, another useful henchman slot filled... We get four different Heroes and five different henchmen (counting dogs)... Which is fine.

Basically, the idea would work like this:

0-3 Witch Elf
Bought in units of a single model.
Frenzy (= immune to psych whilst frenzied = no All On Your Own tests until they lose it).
P'rhaps the sacrifice rule (as long as the warband has one of 'em).
40gc?
Same statline, I think (sacrifice one WS for one I?).

Same can be extended to Bloodshade (0-2, bought in units of a single model; Loner rule).

So, people? Any ideas? I think'd it solve our problems neatly, take us back closer to what SG had in mind originally, take us away from what seems to be what we're falling into and generally make our lives easier...
Comments?

- A.
Last edited by Ansob. on Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Loflar »

Heretic! You are right - more or less.

As long as I can choose corsairs, shades and dogs, I have no problem with witch elf being another available henchgirl.

I don't like the possibility of making bloodshade a henchman. I think the idea and possible ways of his development are too interesting to be dropped. If we had to exclude him from heroes, I would rather make him hired sword.
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Post by Ansob. »

Loflar wrote:If we had to exclude him from heroes, I would rather make him hired sword.


I'd much rather we had him as henchmen, since the assassin HS already fits the "dark, deadly, mysterious and stealthy" stereotype. It'd just be making an "assassin with ranged weapons" thing.
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Post by Jymset »

Well, seeing as I was the one to bring up the Witch Elf HenchWOmen thing up, all I can say is:

HELL YEAH!!

Now, I was the one on this board who was always opposed to the Bloodshade idea. The list had always included some sort of shades, why fiddle around with two of them? And then there were voices who actually wanted to drop the Beastmaster for them......

Ansob, I would totally love it if Witch Elves were Henchmen.

[EDIT] Bear in mind that one of those people is a mod...... [/EDIT]
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Post by Deathangel_321 »

[You love Beastmasters don't you jymset? :P]
I think it would be a good idea, and drop the Hag! Maybe also drop the Bloodshade and have him as a hired sword [and a title for any shades reaching hero status]-as long as I get to make my shade list [hehehe] B)
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Post by Pale warrior »

I've offered no input on this beforehand, so I don't know what my opinion is worth now, heheh, but I never much liked the Bloodshade idea. I would rather have the Beastmaster and some puppies.

With elves sound like a cool henchpeople idea, especially if the Hag is kept...I can easily see myself with a hag and her little Witches streaking around killing puny humans. Mission from the temple and all that. Blood and souls for the blood god.

Henchpeople options are deffinately important...Heroes are the blood and soul of a warband, but henchpeople ought to be the arms and armor of it. Corsairs and Shades are cool, but more hench-options make for more warband compositions, more variety for those that want it, and a measure of uniqueness between warbands (maybe). Personally I'd go for Corsairs aplenty (because I dig their fluff) and some Shades (practical necessity) to shoot folks with, but I'd be tempted by the With Elves (since they rock)...and that's how it should be. I think a good list has all the things you want on it, but you can't have all of them at start. Makes people more ambitious, wanting to win and add stuff to the warband.
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Post by Cenyu »

0-1 Noble

0-1 Beastmaster (enables the selection of 0-2 Beasthounds)

0-1 Sorceress (Sect enmity - can´t be inlcuded in warband if Witch Elves are bought)

Upgrade up to two henchmen to heroes (May upgrade from two different henchmen versions) for 10 gold crowns; upgraded heroes start with 8 experience and can choose from the same equipment as the henchman version and in addition from the hero equipment chart and of course will advance like heroes and not like henchmen.

Shades -> Bloodshade

Shooty, sneaky choice

Corsairs -> Reaver

Fighty choice entitled to wear armour and SDC

Maibds -> Hag Trainee

Even fightier choice but without the option of wearing armour


Note that the Fellblades/Lordlings are gone and are more or less replaced by the "specific" heroes Reaver, Bloodshade and Hag Trainee.

This solution would allow up to five starting heroes and includes 3 henchmen choices (not counting the Beasthounds)

What do you think of this system?
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Post by Ansob. »

I don't think "specific" heroes are a good idea - sorry to stop you flat. We want this as close as possible to the original. It still has to be approved by the SG people. Besides, I like my Lordlings. :P

As for the witch elf henchwomen, they'll definitely have access to armour.
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Post by Cenyu »

Just a thought, the concept simply came to my mind during a boring afternoon of work. So I´m not that upset if it gets negative feedback. :D


Another thought:

Ehm. Why will the Witches be able to wear armour? :?
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Post by Ansob. »

Cenyu wrote:Ehm. Why will the Witches be able to wear armour? :?


Because this is Mordheim. Since Mordheim and WFB are two very different things and some inconsistencies already exist, we'd decided we could give the Hag armour. I'm merely applying the same treatment to these people.

Besides, we only have access to light armour, and how cool is it having the metal bikini actually represent a 6+ save? :P
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Post by Loflar »

Just some random notes. If WE are included, why do they follow the Noble to Mordheim? (I.e. fluff).

If they are in as henchwomen, I would support dropping the Hag (unless we are making ToK list ;-).

Armour... strange idea... While I am not a big believer in WYSIWYG, I still think that a model, which is obviously naked, should not have it. Trollslayers also do not wear armour.

OK, the metal bikini idea is interesting ;-) But in that case I would give them ability to purchase rare chainmail underwear ;-)

And, maybe, their weapons should be poisoned.
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Post by Cenyu »

Meh, Ansob... I thought this new Mordheim list should clear up some of the inconsistencies between WHFB (current Ed) and Mordheim which came up with the Lustrian version.

(e.g. uber-powered SDC, Elves with T4)

But okay, it´s not that much of a big deal, I would be more upset if they suddenly were able to choose Gromril armour.


On the poison issue: While I think that Witch Elves (also Witch henchwomen) should definitely have access to poison (and perhaps even easier/cheaper access, too) I think permanently poisoning their weapons is a little over the top for Mordheim.

Maybe a similar weapon as the Weeping Blades could be introduced for the Druchii warband - I remember such a feature from the unofficial Witch Elf warband list included in the Army Builder.
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Post by Cat-the-odd »

My opinion now:

1 Noble
2 Lordlings (cc only)
1 Beastmaster (opens creatures)
1 Sorceress (no hags allowed, no shooting weapons?)
1 hero-hag (cc only, only when Witchelves-hencewomen in warband)

corsairs ( =warriors: WS4 BS3 )
0-3(5?) shades (sniperers: WS3 BS4)
0-3(2?) witchelves
creatures

I like the downscrewed stats for the Hencemen in alpha2, (WS/BS/I)
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Post by Deathangel_321 »

I still support drop the hag and gain the witches in general [if one bacomes a hero, rename her ;) ]
Possibly 1 lordling... Wait, I didn't say that [runs off before ANSB executes punishment...] but are you sure they are that neccessary to have 2 available with the noble? Although you could say they are Lordlings/Executioners brought for keeping prisoners which I like better. STILL don't think Beastmaster is all that great an idea. I think 0-3 or 4 shades seems a good compromise in a warband of an average of around 12-13 models [I presume?], 0-5 is too many. Witches 0-3 if hag is dropped.
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Post by Ansob. »

Lordlings are 0-2 because Fellblades were 0-2, and also because it kind of makes sense havinf a pyramidal command structure.

Just an idea for now, but the witch elves might possibly be WS4/I5/BS3 and disallow missile weapons. Price them a bit higher than corsairs, too, but the whole price levels need to be seen to again eventually.

Cen: yeah, I was going for the same "bring together" stance, but everyone kept yelling at me saying "it bad!" That's why the max toughness went back to T4, and why witch elves get armour. Not that I disagree with the possibility of either. :)

Loflar: remember that in Mordheim, you're meant to convert models. A chainmail crop-top? :P Permanent poison might be a bit OTT, unless they're price accurately (i.e. 50GC - yes, a lot, but possibly worth it; besides, these are going to be in groups of one, frenzied and all the rest, the way I see them). That, or give them a special poison rule (i.e. not 6 = wound), applying stat maluses to a model they wound once. Also, I can justify witches by simply saying they're "loaned" to nobles - either to watch them, make sure they comply to the King's orders, etc.

Shades 0-5 - as per in the Lustria .pdf - and witches 0-3 if run-of-the-mill (i.e. frenzy, stat malus poison, 35GC, groups) or 0-2 if kind of über. I'm leaning towards the run-of-the-mill, if only because it'll actually make them look and feel like henchthings.

Our max models is twelve, by the way. Noble and Lordlings with RXBs + 5 shades with bows = pretty hardcore shooting. BS4, remember?

Sect enmity - albeit cool - will go if the witch elf henchwomen are definitely in. I don't want to limit our already ridiculously small selection of henchies, and I can justify this by saying that the witch commands and the noble makes the peace. Perhaps a -1Ld if in 6" rule with the same name, though. No, definitely the Ld rule.
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Post by Cenyu »

Oh, the Toughness maximum went up again? Must have missed that... err.. "feature". :-/ Well, okay.


On poison - Maybe give the Witches a (default?) poison that lets a model which was hit only recover (i.e. recover from stunned to knocked down or from knocked down to normal) on a 4+ (due to the paralyzing effect or so).
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Post by Cat-the-odd »

Cen: Bright idea. And with the one strength-skill one could have -1S on cc-hits, and with elven T4 it is T5 for cc.

As "A neutral shade of black." said the witchelves should be compareable to corsairs in the beginning warband (but with frenzy and poison). The -1Ld within 6" seems nice but will only apply for fear-tests. maybe we should add "Sorc and Witch don't count each other when checking for all alone tests", so the -1Ld will be noteable in the games...

Concerning Shades and bows.... we'll talk about it in following equipment-discussion (I don't like it)
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Post by Loflar »

I like Cenyu's idea of paralyzing poison. Even if it meant rising price.

... the witch commands and the noble makes the peace. Perhaps a -1Ld if in 6" rule with the same name, though. No, definitely the Ld rule.

I don't understand this. I thought that sect enemity is an issue of ToK and Convent. And don't get the suggested rule either.

I like Cat's idea of sorc and WE not counting each other for all-alone tests.
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Post by Ansob. »

Loflar wrote:I don't understand this. I thought that sect enemity is an issue of ToK and Convent. And don't get the suggested rule either.


Convent: hired. Temple: "donations" giving you access to their help. In the end, the noble still decides whether or not the maibd dies, is fed or anything else - she may have weapons, but she's still a priestess. If the noble says "stop your quarrels or I'll have both of you executed," they're not likely to keep at open enmity. Hence the suggested rule - if a witch elf and sorceress are within 6" of one another, then both get -1Ld (perhaps even a -1 to cast for the sorc?).
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Post by Loflar »

Thanks for explanation. In that case, I am think that penalty to casting would be to much. I think that when action gets hot, the girls will think more like "this one will not help me" (psychology) then "this one really annoys me" (concentrating on casting).
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Post by Cat-the-odd »

Why not the -1 to cast when in 6", additionally? So the sorc will wander alone and avoid the frenzy girlies.

Another idea: the sorc will never cast any supporting spell (black blade) on the witches (witches will take more often rout tests than the sorc)
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Post by Deathangel_321 »

I don't think -1 to cast is very likely really, seems a bit of a random thing to do. The second is better, ulthough I'm not sure unlikely either [if they are the best option she would? Maybe a Ld chack...]
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Post by Ansob. »

Loflar wrote:Thanks for explanation. In that case, I am think that penalty to casting would be to much. I think that when action gets hot, the girls will think more like "this one will not help me" (psychology) then "this one really annoys me" (concentrating on casting).


You mean, "this frenzied girl with two poisoned knives isn't going to take advantage of the fact that the noble isn't looking and neither is anyone else to stab me in the back while I'm distracted," is that it? :P

Cat: that no support thing would be too hard to have, though. And the -1 to cast was in addition to the Ld penalty (as my idea - if you feel it should just be a -1 to cast, then that's fine with me).
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Post by Loflar »

A neutral shade of black. wrote:You mean, "this frenzied girl with two poisoned knives isn't going to take advantage of the fact that the noble isn't looking and neither is anyone else to stab me in the back while I'm distracted," is that it? :P

First, does that mean that WE gets the posion? ;-)
Second, I imagine a situation, during battle, so the girls are not exactly alone. They are, say, in company of six fast approaching mice. Which means, that both girls probably panic and run for the nearest table, mutually helping themselves up, and, once safe, immediately getting into quarrell...

I just think, that sect enemity should not be that strong, that the girls would not forget it when mutual support is needed to survive.
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Post by Ansob. »

Loflar wrote:I just think, that sect enemity should not be that strong, that the girls would not forget it when mutual support is needed to survive.


Oh, they'd forget fast enough, if the noble wasn't around to pay attention.
-1 to cast if outside of the noble's influence range and within 6" of a witch elf?

And WE will most hopefully get poison, the paralysing one too.
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