The Hero warband - witch elves as henchmen?
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- Cat-the-odd
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A neutral shade of black. wrote:Oh, they'd forget fast enough, if the noble wasn't around to pay attention.
-1 to cast if outside of the noble's influence range and within 6" of a witch elf?
Looks like two teenage girls hating each other, who need an adult to supervise them...
But if we go in this direction, then I am for simplicity.
-1 to Ld if the two girls are less then 6" apart (i.e. regardless of position of Noble)?
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heheLooks like two teenage girls hating each other, who need an adult to supervise them...
Yes, the simpler the better. Otherwise there is too much to remember. However, I think 6" is -1 Ld is a bit harsh just for that. Maybe if the noble is down, but that is back as unsimple[is that a word? ] I think ignore for all on the own is OK but in frenzy the witches don't care...
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Seems everybody is fine with the Witchelves listed in the snapshot.
However, my opinion for the 6" rule still differs. -1Ld might be hard, but applies very seldom, because mostly you test on ini during game, but not on Ld. I'd like to have a hader rule for them!
However, my opinion for the 6" rule still differs. -1Ld might be hard, but applies very seldom, because mostly you test on ini during game, but not on Ld. I'd like to have a hader rule for them!
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- Ansob.
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Cenyu wrote:Animosity towards each other if within 6" as per the Orc rules.
Yes. That would be much easier to use, and is already a thought-out rule - I just didn't put that forward as I don't know the rule. Care to fill me/us in?
General Kala wrote:All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.Cenyu wrote:Hail to the King, baby.
On start of the turn, roll D6 for all O&G in your elven warband.. sorry, for all affected models. 1 triggers the animosity roll. Roll results:
1 - one girl heard the other saying something about her makeup and attacks her.
2-5 - girls spends the turn shouting insults and can do nothing other
6 - girl feels need to show herself and runs to the nearest enemy, charging, if possible.
I see following problems. O&G are cheap. You can afford to lose some of them to animosity. WE can kill the sorceress, which is quite expensive, in one turn. Sorceress, OTOH, should be intelligent enough not to expose herself to enemies, if she can use magic instead.
IMHO 2-5 result is OK, but 1 is too dangerous for warband of so expensive models and 6 does not make sense, at least for sorceress.
So I am not against including animosity-like rule, but with 1 and 6 results changed.
1 - one girl heard the other saying something about her makeup and attacks her.
2-5 - girls spends the turn shouting insults and can do nothing other
6 - girl feels need to show herself and runs to the nearest enemy, charging, if possible.
I see following problems. O&G are cheap. You can afford to lose some of them to animosity. WE can kill the sorceress, which is quite expensive, in one turn. Sorceress, OTOH, should be intelligent enough not to expose herself to enemies, if she can use magic instead.
IMHO 2-5 result is OK, but 1 is too dangerous for warband of so expensive models and 6 does not make sense, at least for sorceress.
So I am not against including animosity-like rule, but with 1 and 6 results changed.
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Hmmm... Sounds nice, easy to use, too. (within 6" !!!!!)
What about copy&paste 6 to 1?:
1-2 - girl feels need to show herself and runs to the nearest enemy, charging, if possible.
3-6 - girls spends the turn shouting insults and can do nothing other
this might have an 1/18 chance to have a super-frezy hag and in 1/9 a stubborn girl complaining about the other girls there in the ruins of mortheim...
Why not let them attack each other with fists? - We are Darkelves and use weapons... I know.
What about this: (when in 6") roll a D6 at start of the turn on a 1 both turn back-to-back and move (no sprint) as far as possible. Keep away from enemys (stop 1" in front).
Another mod: D6, on 1 pass Ld or they attack each other
Or: 2D6 on 2.... Hag's goulash...
The main question is: how hard should it be to have the girlies in 6" of each other (without leader)? Mostly elves should know what they are doing next eesp. what the others are doing next. (O'n'G don't, do they?)
What about copy&paste 6 to 1?:
1-2 - girl feels need to show herself and runs to the nearest enemy, charging, if possible.
3-6 - girls spends the turn shouting insults and can do nothing other
this might have an 1/18 chance to have a super-frezy hag and in 1/9 a stubborn girl complaining about the other girls there in the ruins of mortheim...
Why not let them attack each other with fists? - We are Darkelves and use weapons... I know.
What about this: (when in 6") roll a D6 at start of the turn on a 1 both turn back-to-back and move (no sprint) as far as possible. Keep away from enemys (stop 1" in front).
Another mod: D6, on 1 pass Ld or they attack each other
Or: 2D6 on 2.... Hag's goulash...
The main question is: how hard should it be to have the girlies in 6" of each other (without leader)? Mostly elves should know what they are doing next eesp. what the others are doing next. (O'n'G don't, do they?)
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Would it be like the rule for animosity in the army book for orcs and goblins or is it a special one for Mordheim ?
If we adapt from the army book that would give someting like that :
"Sectarism : every time a WE and a Sorceress come within 6" of each other, immidiately roll a D6 for each of them. On a result of 2-5, nothing happens. On a result of 1, re-roll a D6 and immidiately apply the result of the following chart :
- 1 : "infuriated" : the character is infuriated by the presence of the other. She MUST charge one of the available targets (in case the sorceress can charge more than one WE) chosen by the opponent player, and a single close combat phase is resolved as normal with normal rules for charging (etc.) but without any leadership test (in case the Sorceress finds herself against 2 or more WE for example) at the end of the phase. Simply split the surviving characters (i.e. not OOC) of 1" at the end of the CC phase. None of the characters can do anything else this turn. If two characters are "infuriated" in the same turn, roll a D6 to determine who has the initiative.
- 2-5 : "suspicion" : the character is too busy lurking at the other to see what she may have in mind. She may do nothing this turn, except defend herself if charged.
- 6 : "I'm the favoured one !" : the character is crazed by the presence of the other. She MUST immediately declare a charge on the closet ennemy in sight, or move at twice its normal speed towards the closest ennemy in sight.
Both additional movements in case 1 and 6 are done in addition to the movement made to reach the 6" radius around the other character.
Hmmmmm... not very happy with what I come up with. A bit complicated. Too much stuff to say. Maybe someone can come up with something shorter.
If we adapt from the army book that would give someting like that :
"Sectarism : every time a WE and a Sorceress come within 6" of each other, immidiately roll a D6 for each of them. On a result of 2-5, nothing happens. On a result of 1, re-roll a D6 and immidiately apply the result of the following chart :
- 1 : "infuriated" : the character is infuriated by the presence of the other. She MUST charge one of the available targets (in case the sorceress can charge more than one WE) chosen by the opponent player, and a single close combat phase is resolved as normal with normal rules for charging (etc.) but without any leadership test (in case the Sorceress finds herself against 2 or more WE for example) at the end of the phase. Simply split the surviving characters (i.e. not OOC) of 1" at the end of the CC phase. None of the characters can do anything else this turn. If two characters are "infuriated" in the same turn, roll a D6 to determine who has the initiative.
- 2-5 : "suspicion" : the character is too busy lurking at the other to see what she may have in mind. She may do nothing this turn, except defend herself if charged.
- 6 : "I'm the favoured one !" : the character is crazed by the presence of the other. She MUST immediately declare a charge on the closet ennemy in sight, or move at twice its normal speed towards the closest ennemy in sight.
Both additional movements in case 1 and 6 are done in addition to the movement made to reach the 6" radius around the other character.
Hmmmmm... not very happy with what I come up with. A bit complicated. Too much stuff to say. Maybe someone can come up with something shorter.
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- Ansob.
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Hrm. A bit too complicated for Mordheim.
Sectarism If at the end of a turn, for any reason, a Witch Elf and Sorceress are within 6" of and visible to each other, roll a d6. If a one is rolled, the Witch Elf and Sorceress must charge each other (move them towards one another in such a way that they move an equal distance). The Witch Elf and sorceress will attack each other once during the enemy close combat phase using their basic strength (as featured in their current profile) and may then move again freely. You must roll a d6 for every Witch Elf fulfilling these conditions.
Much better, no? It's also been a bit nerfed compared to the full animosity rule.
Sectarism If at the end of a turn, for any reason, a Witch Elf and Sorceress are within 6" of and visible to each other, roll a d6. If a one is rolled, the Witch Elf and Sorceress must charge each other (move them towards one another in such a way that they move an equal distance). The Witch Elf and sorceress will attack each other once during the enemy close combat phase using their basic strength (as featured in their current profile) and may then move again freely. You must roll a d6 for every Witch Elf fulfilling these conditions.
Much better, no? It's also been a bit nerfed compared to the full animosity rule.
General Kala wrote:All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.Cenyu wrote:Hail to the King, baby.
I prefer the "runs in oppostie direction" idea. I don't like the actual "running", as it would basically give you the chance to have moved twice in a turn. Maybe
It definately needs some touching up (wording wise) though. I just woke up and am not in my best mind (which isn't so great to begin with )
"Immediately, when a Witch Elf model or Sorceress model move within 6" of each other, roll a D6. On a result of 1, the models must both spend the remaining of their move this turn moving in the opposite direction of each other. On any other result, the models act as normal."
It definately needs some touching up (wording wise) though. I just woke up and am not in my best mind (which isn't so great to begin with )
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First, I think, that Cenyu offered animosity as a joke.
Second, if we employ it, results shoud IMHO avoid infightng - O&G may have up to 20 models and may afford one or two losses much more, than DE warband (of at most 12) may afford to lose its expensive sorceress.
Aldarith, I have rephrased what's written in O&G warband rules. You have it more precise, but essentially the same.
But I don't think that rolling D6 to decide what will happen is too complicated - O&G do it all the time... What about to change the charge to running to the other model, stopping 1" from her - the girls want to have a serious private conversation - and then following by rules of 2-5?
And the 6 roll could result in both girls insulted, moving 5" in opposite direction in compulsory movement phase.
Second, if we employ it, results shoud IMHO avoid infightng - O&G may have up to 20 models and may afford one or two losses much more, than DE warband (of at most 12) may afford to lose its expensive sorceress.
Aldarith, I have rephrased what's written in O&G warband rules. You have it more precise, but essentially the same.
But I don't think that rolling D6 to decide what will happen is too complicated - O&G do it all the time... What about to change the charge to running to the other model, stopping 1" from her - the girls want to have a serious private conversation - and then following by rules of 2-5?
And the 6 roll could result in both girls insulted, moving 5" in opposite direction in compulsory movement phase.
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why not... but I think we should have them fight a bit on a 1 (you know, tearing away their beautiful long white hair - my DEs have white hair).
ANSOB's idea of "basic strength" for the attacks seems fine to me : they are not using their weapons (is that what should be understood ansob ?)
I think ansob found a very nice way of putting it.
Edit: just a thought... Why not have them fight with fists (-1 strength to attacks, +1 armor for opponent) if I remember well) ? Could represent some "serious argument"...
(Mod edit - don't double-post, please. Thanks.)
ANSOB's idea of "basic strength" for the attacks seems fine to me : they are not using their weapons (is that what should be understood ansob ?)
I think ansob found a very nice way of putting it.
Edit: just a thought... Why not have them fight with fists (-1 strength to attacks, +1 armor for opponent) if I remember well) ? Could represent some "serious argument"...
(Mod edit - don't double-post, please. Thanks.)
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- Ansob.
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Lord Aldarith wrote:why not... but I think we should have them fight a bit on a 1 (you know, tearing away their beautiful long white hair - my DEs have white hair).
ANSOB's idea of "basic strength" for the attacks seems fine to me : they are not using their weapons (is that what should be understood ansob ?)
I think ansob found a very nice way of putting it.
Edit: just a thought... Why not have them fight with fists (-1 strength to attacks, +1 armor for opponent) if I remember well) ? Could represent some "serious argument"...
Yes, that's what I mean, and no, fighting with fists wouldn't be very justifiable - they are, after all, attempting to kill each other.
General Kala wrote:All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.Cenyu wrote:Hail to the King, baby.
A neutral shade of black. wrote:Yes, that's what I mean, and no, fighting with fists wouldn't be very justifiable - they are, after all, attempting to kill each other.
And I thought that Druchii are meant to be the disciplined warrior race. Constant infighting, even before coming enemy, is a trait of O&G.
Dark elves should IMHO have enough sense to avoid such behaviour.
Sorceress charging WE is a complete nonsense - sorceress should be a clever person, who should not start fight with someone who is better. WE charging sorceress - well, that might happen (WE is after all the frenzied psychotic, who was not intelligent enough to find a decent job), and it would probably result in one or more wounds to the sorceress. With the paralyzing poison...
Do you really think, that Sectarism should be able to kill you a costly hero?
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Loflar wrote:And I thought that Druchii are meant to be the disciplined warrior race. Constant infighting, even before coming enemy, is a trait of O&G.
Dark elves should IMHO have enough sense to avoid such behaviour.
I think we should first think of the sort of Sectarism the girls are affected to. On one hand there is the animosity thing, on the other is some mistrust. The first has effects like fights between them, the other is more a psychologicly penalty.
Animosity:
+ O&G rules are there
+ easy to handle in gameplay
- we can have 4 models (of max 12) in CC to each other in the first turn (small deployment zone)
- we can lose a model (~10% of warband)
Mistrust:
+ no direct danger
- annoying effect
... to add more (I'll edtit it in)[/i]
Last edited by Cat-the-odd on Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
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.~~ /|...Real gentlemen play games which require skill, not tools.
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.|__/\...Extraordinary gentlemen even win with them.
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Cat-the-Odd wrote:I think we should first think of the sort of Sectarism the girls are affected to. On one hand there is the animosity thing, on the other is some mistrust.
Exactly. And we should also decide why is the rule there at all.
What function does the Sect enemity rule have in Warhammer? IMHO there are two answers.
1) For fluff reasons. The rule is there because of fluff and is not very important from system point of view. Gamewise, it is only a minor annoyance, not allowing players to put sorceress just to any unit.
2) Maybe there is some important reason, why wizard character should not be in a frenzied unit. How is it solved in other armies?
In case of answer 1, Mordheim solution should IMHO again create a minor annoyance, but not direct danger of loosing an expensive model.
In case of answer 2, this problem does not apply to Mordheim and the rule can be safely left out...
I did some research of poisons. It seems that the paralyzing poison we want could come from cobras. What about to call it Naja poison? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_%28snake%29
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Let's keep it simple shall we?
Simple, functional and deosn't cripple either party.
Sect Enimity:
Witch elves and Sorceress do not count as a friendly model for the purposes of an All Alone test for a warrior of the other sect. Note that this will apply onlt should a witch elf lose her frenzy.
Simple, functional and deosn't cripple either party.
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Arquinsiel wrote:Let's keep it simple shall we?Sect Enimity:
Witch elves and Sorceress do not count as a friendly model for the purposes of an All Alone test for a warrior of the other sect. Note that this will apply onlt should a witch elf lose her frenzy.
Simple, functional and deosn't cripple either party.
That second sentence is completely useless. The frenzied witch elf isn't going to make the sorceress any less nervous, and the witch elf won't be doing AA tests anyway since she's frenzied.
Sect Enimity:
Witch elves and Sorceress do not count as a friendly models to each other for the purpose of any All Alone tests.
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I agree, much better that way.
On the topic that Orcs = Elves, JRR Tolkien only says that they are "twisted and tortured elves" (physically speaking), "a ruined and terrible form of life, now perfected, my fighting Uruk-hai" - dixit Saruman the "wise"... And although some argue that orcs are actually the "dark" elves of Tolkien, this is not to be compared to our Druchii ! We are THE perfect form of life, no need to be perfected .
On the topic that Orcs = Elves, JRR Tolkien only says that they are "twisted and tortured elves" (physically speaking), "a ruined and terrible form of life, now perfected, my fighting Uruk-hai" - dixit Saruman the "wise"... And although some argue that orcs are actually the "dark" elves of Tolkien, this is not to be compared to our Druchii ! We are THE perfect form of life, no need to be perfected .
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Arquinsiel wrote:Erm... frenzy means you don't have to take All ALone tests, hence it means the witch elf will only suffer from this rule after losing frenzy not that the sorceress will be comforted by the presence of a frenzied with elf.
Except that this wording:
Sect Enimity:
Witch elves and Sorceress do not count as a friendly model for the purposes of an All Alone test for a warrior of the other sect. Note that this will apply onlt should a witch elf lose her frenzy.
implies that the sorceress would still count the WE for AA tests if the WE was frenzied. You don't need to state that frenzied WEs don't take AA tests, since that's in the rules.
Last edited by Ansob. on Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
General Kala wrote:All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.Cenyu wrote:Hail to the King, baby.