Alpha 3.5

[Loflar]

Explanation: I made this list, because I need a snapshot of current situation. Sorry, ANSOB, for circumventing you, but I found that I need it sooner than I expected.

Disclaimer: This was the temporary list before Alpha 4. Feel free to comment on the results, but there's no point commenting on the list as it's changed quite a bit from this - see the Alpha 4! thread. (Ansob.)

I made following changes to A3:

• Bloodshade and Hag Trainee dropped.
• 0-3 Witch Elves introduced with stats of Hag Trainee (but I=5), price 40 gc, paralyzing poison and Sectarism changed to the -1 Ld variant, as discussed in WE thread.
• Warhounds' Ferocious Charge renamed to Tackle (taken from WtA combat rules ;-) because Ferocious Charge is Trollslayer's skill.
• Beastlash Whipcrack made identical to Sigmarites' version. I was too lazy to write it all though.
• I added my Stesso Tempo skill (and call it Stesso Tempo here, because this is how I will (personally) call it, unless I will see a better name. Which is unlikely, because this is how fencers here call the manoeuvre.) Don't take it as pushing this name into A4 - read the disclaimer above.
• I added available Hired Swords as I saw fit (no elves, dwarves at double price, no "Fortune Hunters" as they are unofficial, and otherwise more or less anyone who is not limited to specific warbands).
• I added the "useless fluffy leadership skill" and called it "Feared and Respected", as suggested by Deathangel. Do I understand well that Noble should have it from the start?

Mordheim : Druchii warband
Alpha 3.5



There are none living who know the ways of the elves, save perhaps the mighty lizard-priests of the South whose knowledge and power is rumoured to grow far beyond that even of the High Mages of the College of Magic of Altdorf. Those few elves who roam the lands of the Empire are mysterious, their ways impenetrable to us.

There are those who, like Finubar the Proud, openly declare themselves Manfriend and help defend our glorious Empire from the encroaching forces of Chaos - too few of them, unfortunately. Of those, we know what they would have us know - their history and that of their families, and a little of the history of their land - the fabled island of Ulthuan. There are those who stalk the night, warriors who come cloaked in darkness and wielding bows, the death in their eyes revealed in their prey as their life is snuffed out like a candle atop Brass Keep by one, well-placed arrow shot - of those we know little, save that they name themselves "Shadow warriors of Nagarythe" and, as their kindred of Ulthuan reassure us, they seek to do us no harm.

There are those who protect the forests, defending them from touch of Chaos and Man alike. There are also rumours of a fourth breed of elves - a grim race, ruthless and sadistic. They come at night in their low ships with sails of midnight-black, craving the poison that lurks within the now-ruins of Mordheim, the Weyrdstone of which all those who go to the Cursed City and return speak. They leave no witnesses, taking prisoner those who are able-bodied enough to toil under them in slavery, murdering the others.

Of course, such nonsense is only that - rumours, and nonsense, the delusional affabulations of crazed minds that have seen the taint of Chaos from too close. It may be that some elves are more ruthless than others, but they are just that - elves, and their ways are closed to us.


Choice of Warriors
A Druchii warband must include a minimum of three models. You have 500 gold crowns to recruit your initial warband. The maximum number of warriors in a warband may never exceed 12.

• Heroes
  Noble Each Druchii warband must have one Noble to lead it - no more, no less.
  Lordlings Your warband may include up to two Lordlings.
  Beastmaster Your warband may include one Beastmaster.
  Sorceress Your warband may include one Sorceress.
  
• Henchmen
  Corsairs Your warband may include any number of corsairs.
  Shades Your warband may include up to five shades.
  Witch elves Your warband may include up to three witch elves.
  Warhounds Your warband may include up to three hounds if it also includes a Beastmaster.

Starting Experience

A Noble starts with 20 experience.
Lordlings start with 12 experience.
A Sorceress starts with 12 experience.
A Beastmaster starts with 8 experience.
Henchmen start with 0 experience.

Maximum Characteristics

Characteristics for Druchii warriors may not be increased beyond the maximum limits shown here:

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M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  7  7 4 4 3 9 5  10

Special Rules

Kindred Hatred The Dark Elves have been fighting the High Elves for many centuries. The wars between these two races have been very long and bloody affairs. Dark Elves Hate any High Elf warriors including High Elf Hired Swords.

Excellent Sight There are numerous legends detailing the excellent eyesight of the Elves, both Druchii and Asur kin. Elves can spot Hidden enemies from twice as far away than normal warriors (i.e. twice their Initiative value in inches).

Disdain Dark Elves may never use black powder weapons as they find them too crude, noisy and unreliable.

Long-Lived Elves, as a race, can live right through dozens of human generations, with a lifespan crossing centuries, rather than decades. Due to this, they take longer to advance through the ranks, as they do not have the short human lifespan to push them to great deeds before they die. As such, the first time any Dark Elf henchman rolls "The Lad's Got Talent", you must re-roll the dice. The second roll stands (even if you roll "The Lad's Got Talent" again). This represents the fact that elves must do much more than a member of the "lesser" races to gain the respect of their commander and comrades. Any further results of "The Lad's Got Talent" count as normal; only the first result rolled for each henchmen group must be re-rolled.

Druchii equipment lists
The following lists are used by Druchii warbands to pick their weapons:

Druchii equipment list
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Double-handed weapon . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Halberd . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Beastlash* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc

Missile Weapons
Repeater Crossbow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 gc
Crossbow Pistol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 gc
Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc

Armour
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Buckler . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc

Special Equipment
Darksteel Blade** . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+ 15 gc
Dark Venom** . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Sea Dragon Cloak** . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 gc
* Beastmaster only.
** Heroes only, unless otherwise mentioned.

Shades equipment list
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1st free/2 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc

Missile Weapons
Repeater Crossbow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 gc
Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc

Armour
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc

Druchii skill table

Noble Combat - Shooting - Academic - Speed - Special
Lordling Combat - Shooting - Speed - Special
Sorceress Academic - Speed - Special
Beastmaster Combat - Speed - Special

Heroes

1 Noble
70 Gold Crowns to hire
Dark Elf leaders are typically drawn from the Dark Elf nobility and lead the warband in search of gold, slaves and arcane artifacts to bring home to Naggaroth. They are cold and ruthless killers and they command the respect of their troops through assassination and terror. They have attained their position of leadership by eliminating those rivals who stood in their way and through their remarkable cunning, they are dangerous foes who embody the merciless traits of the Druchii race.

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M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  5  4 3 3 1 6 1  9

Weapons/Armour A Noble may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Dark Elf Equipment list.

Special Rules
Leader Any models in the warband within 6" of the Noble may use his Leadership instead of their own.

Feared and Respected
The leader of the warband is known for his ruthlessness and his underlings will continue fighting even under the direst conditions out of fear or respect.
As long as the leader with this skill is alive the warband will only have to test for routing if it suffered more than 50% casualties instead of the normal 25%.

0-2 Lordlings
50 Gold Crowns to hire
Lordlings are would-be commanders of the Druchii forces, and often serve under a Noble as page or lieutenant. Lordlings accompany raiding parties to the Old World to further their career, seeking to acquire fame, riches and status in the Witch King’s court.

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M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  4  4 3 3 1 6 1  8

Weapons/Armour Lordlings may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Druchii equipment list.

0-1 Dark Elf Sorceress
60 Gold Crowns to hire
Dark Elves are strange in that apart from the fell Witch King there are no other male sorcerers - all the other practitioners of magic in the Dark Elf race are female. It is rumoured that any males who do develop an affinity for magic amongst the Dark Elves are immediately put to death to prevent the fulfilling of some dark prophecy.
Dark Elf Sorceresses are mysterious, raven-haired beauties who are grudgingly respected even by the powerful Nobles, and their services are high in demand.

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M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  3  3 3 3 1 5 1  8

Weapons/Armour The Sorceress may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Druchii equipment list, but may not cast spells if wearing armour.

Special Rules
Wizard The Dark Elf Sorceress is a wizard and uses Dark Magic, detailed below.

Sectarism
Because of the intense mistrust between the Temple of Khaine and the Convents, Sorceresses and Witch Elves feel uneasy in each other’s presence; if Sorceress happens to be within 6" from any Witch Elf, all affected models suffer a -1 Ld penalty.


0-1 Beastmaster
45 Gold Crowns to hire
Whereas the High Elves have a great affinity with Dragons and Griffons and other noble creatures their malevolent kin have infamous Beastmasters, Dark Elves of particularly cruel renown who breed many vicious beasts and lead them into combat. Unlike the High Elves who treat their beasts as companions, the Dark Elf Beastmasters are very spiteful masters.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 3 3 3 1 5 1 8

Weapons/Armour A Beastmaster may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Druchii equipment list.

Special Rules
Warhounds The Beastmaster may be accompanied by up to three Warhounds. These are bought as henchmen and follow all rules for listed for them.

Henchmen
Bought in groups of 1-5.

Corsairs
35 Gold Crowns to hire
The Dark Elves are cruel and fierce fighters. This is especially true of the Corsairs - the Black Ark Raiders. They are skilled with sword and axe, as well as the repeater crossbow, the distinct missile weapon of the Dark Elves. Whenever Druchii ships reach foreign shores, the Corsairs are the first to launch raiding parties.

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M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  4  3 3 3 1 5 1  8

Weapons/Armour Corsairs may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Dark Elf Equipment list. In addition they may wear Sea Dragon Cloaks even though they are not Heroes.

0-5 Shades
35 Gold Crowns to hire
The stealthy Dark Elf Shades rely on their repeater crossbows to harass and snipe at the enemy, rather than engaging them head on, as ambush is their preferred style of fighting. These Shades are young and inexperienced scouts that see the expeditions to the Old World as a valuable training opportunity.

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M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  3  4 3 3 1 5 1  8

Weapons/Armour Shades may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Shades Equipment list.

Natural Stealth The first thing that Dark Elf scouts master is the art of moving without being seen or heard. If a Dark Elf is Hiding, enemy models suffer -1 to their Initiative value for determining if they can detect him.

0-3 Witch Elves
40 Gold Crowns to hire
Witch Elves are the lethally beautiful followers of Khaine, the Bloody-Handed god of murder, vengeance and war. Hag Trainees are those amongst the devoted who seek to become priestesses of Khaine and learn His holy canons. These warrior-priestesses are sent on missions for the Temple, to prove their worth in the eyes of their god.

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M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  4  3 3 3 1 5 1  8

Weapons/Armour Witch Elves may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Druchii equipment list, barring all missile weapons.

Special Rules
Fervour The Hag Trainee follows the Frenzy special rule.

Offering If the Warband includes a Witch Elf, it may choose to sacrifice any slaves it captures to Khaine rather than selling them in Naggaroth. Each sacrificed slave will give the leader +1XP.

Poison Witch Elves consider killing a sacred duty. To make the duty easier, they coat their weapons in paralyzing Poison of Undecided Name (PUN). During Recovery phase, models hit by Witch Elf's poisoned weapon only recover on roll of 4+.

Sectarism
Because of the intense mistrust between the Temple of Khaine and the Convents, Sorceresses and Witch Elves feel uneasy in each other’s presence; if a Witch Elf happens to be within 6" from the Sorceress, all affected models suffer a -1 Ld penalty.


0-3 Warhounds
20 Gold Crowns to hire
The Dark Elves capture and breed many exotic creatures to fight for them, and fights between pets are often staged as a form of entertainment amongst the Dark Elves. Myriad of such animals can be discovered in the Chaos Wastes. Among them is the Warhound, a fierce breed of attack hounds that resemble wolves more than dogs. The Dark Elves capture and train these creatures to fight in battles all over the Warhammer World.

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M WS BS S T W I A Ld
7  4  0 4 3 1 4 1  5

Weapons/Armour Warhounds are animals and do not need any weapons, save their claws and massive jaws.

Special Rules
Animals Warhounds are animals, and all animal rules apply to them. They never gain experience.

Beastmaster Warhounds are vicious creatures that are barely kept under control. If the Beastmaster dies the beasts will immediately escape from the warband - remove them from the warband roster. If the Beastmaster is unable to participate in a battle, then neither will the beasts.

Trained Warhounds may use the basic Leadership of the Beastmaster if they are within 6" of him. They may never use the Leadership of the warband leader, but they may benefit from the Beastmaster’s increased Leadership if he is within 6" of the leader. Since Warhounds are still wild creatures and their fighting spirit is what makes them so precious, Warhounds too far away from their masters will often refuse to obey orders. As such, Warhounds out of the Beastmaster’s control radius suffer from the Stupidity special rule.

Tackle On the turn of a charge, a Warhound will automatically knock its foe down on a To Hit roll of a "6." In this case, the Hound may not further roll to wound this round.


Special Equipment

Darksteel Weapon
(+15 gold crowns to weapon/Rare 9)
Darksteel weapons are forged in the city of Hag Graef, the Dark Crag. They are fashioned from Blacksteel, a rare form of steel found deep within the mountains around the city. Darksteel weapons have wicked protrusions and serrated edges, which inflict serious damage on an opponent. Any Druchii can upgrade a weapon to a Darksteel weapon by paying an additional 15 gc at the time of purchase. Weapons upgraded to a Darksteel Weapon retain all of their abilities (i.e. swords can parry, double-handed weapons strike last).

Range Close Combat; Strength As user; Special Rules Critical Damage, Wicked Edge.

Special Rules
Critical Damage Darksteel weapons inflict serious damage on their opponents. When rolling on the critical hit chart, a Darksteel weapon will add +1 to the result.

Wicked Edge Darksteel weapons are set with sharp protrusions and serrated edges which inflict serious damage on an opponent. A roll of 2-4 on the injury table is a stunned result.

Beastlash (Beastmaster only)
(10+D6 Gold Crowns/Rare 8 )
The Beastmaster make good use of their whips to goad their hounds and creatures into combat.

Range Close combat; Strength As user -1; Special Rules Beastbane; Whipcrack; Cannot be parried.

Special Rules
Beastbane The Beastmaster wielding a Beastlash causes Fear in animals. Any animal charged by or wishing to charge a Beastmaster with one of these weapons must first take a fear test as mentioned in the psychology section of the Mordheim rules.

Whipcrack As in LRB, description of Steelwhip of Sisters of Sigmar.

Cannot be parried A Beastlash cannot be parried.

Sea Dragon Cloak
(35+2D6 Gold Crowns/Rare 10)
Dark Elf Corsairs use special cloaks fashioned from the skin and scales of the sea monsters that dwell deep in the oceans depths. These cloaks are tough and resilient, and offer Dark Elves a very good amount of protection.

Special Rules
Scales 6+ armour save in close combat, 5+ armour save against missiles; may be combined with other pieces of armour (light armour, shield, etc.) with no penalties.


Druchii Skill Table
Dark Elf Heroes may use the following Skill table instead of any of the standard skill tables available to them:

Fury of Khaine
The Dark Elf is infused with an intense raging thirst for blood and is a whirlwind in hand-to-hand combat, moving from opponent to opponent. The Druchii may make a 4" follow up move if he takes all of his opponents out of action. If he comes into contact with another enemy, this starts a new combat. This
new combat takes place in the following turn and the model counts as charging.

Fey Quickness
Few can ever hope to match an Elf ’s inhuman quickness and agility. An Elf with Fey Quickness can avoid melee or missile attacks on a roll of 6. If the Elf also has Step Aside or Dodge this will increase to a 4+ in the relevant area. For example, an Elf with Fey Quickness and Step Aside avoids melee attacks on a 4+ and missile attacks on a 6.

Infiltration
The Dark Elf can infiltrate. This skill is exactly the same as the Skaven skill.

Master of Poisons
The Druchii is proficient in concocting different poisons. If the Hero doesn’t search for rare items, he may make D3-1 doses of Dark Venom instead. There is a chance of getting none, as the hero doesn’t have access to a stable workplace. The poison cannot be sold or traded to other warbands as the Dark Elves guard their secrets very carefully.

SUN (Skill of Undecided Name) aka Stesso Tempo
An experienced fighter can anticipate move of enemy to avoid his attack while performing an attack of his own. If enemy model fails at least one to-hit roll in close combat, model gets one more attack. This attack is always performed, even if the model was struck down, stunned, or taken OOA.

Dark Magic
Like their hated Asur kin, the Dark Elves are accomplished practitioners of magic. However, whereas the High Elves essentially use magic defensively and for the power of good, the Dark Elves utilise the evil powers of Dark Magic - a very destructive force indeed.

D6 Result
1 Doombolt
Difficulty 8
Whispering an ancient incantation, the Sorceress conjures a bolt of pure dark energy and unleashes it from her outstretched hand.
The Doombolt may be targeted at any enemy model in line of sight. The bolt has an 18" range and causes a Strength 5 hit. If the target model is wounded, then the next closest model within 6" is also hit on a 4+, at -1 Strength than the previous hit. The bolt will keep leaping until there are no more targets within range or until its Strength drops to a one. Take armour saves as normal.

2 Word of Pain
Difficulty 8
The Sorceress calls down the wrath of Khaine upon her enemy, causing his resolve to disappear.
The spell may be cast at an enemy model within 12". The victim must re-roll all successful hand to hand or missile attacks and all to wound rolls. If the victim wishes to charge, he must pass a successful Leadership test first. Lasts until the beginning of the next Dark Elf turn.

3 Soul Stealer
Difficulty 9
At the Sorceress’s touch, the essence of life is drained from her enemy and absorbed into her body, giving her renewed strength and vigour.
Once successfully cast, the Sorceress has to make a to hit roll against a model in base contact. If the attack is successful and her opponent is struck, he suffers a wound with no armour save possible. The Sorceress feeds on this life-force and adds one wound to her current total.
Note: the Sorceress can never have more then one extra wound on her profile from the use of this spell(she may cast it as many times as she wishes to regain lost wounds) and the extra wound is lost once the battle is over.

4 Black Blade of Khaine
Difficulty 8
Summoning Dark Magic, the Sorceress engulfs a weapon in twisted black flames.
The Sorceress may choose the hand-to-hand combat weapon of a member of her warband within 6" to be engulfed in flames. A weapon with these flames acts as a normal weapon of its type, but adds a +2 bonus to the user’s Strength. Hits inflicted from the weapon ignore armour saves. Lasts until the Sorceress’ next shooting
phase.

5 Deathspasm
Difficulty 9
The Sorceress channels Dark Magic into her enemy, causing him to writhe in excruciating pain.
The Deathspasm has a range of 6" and must be cast on the closest enemy model. The affected model must roll on the injury chart. If successfully cast, the casting Sorceress is immediately knocked down. This cannot be prevented by using the Jump Up skill.

6 Witch Flight
Difficulty 7
The Sorceress bends the winds of magic to her will and flies through the air.
The Sorceress may immediately move anywhere within 12", and may count as charging. If she engages a fleeing enemy in the close combat phase, she will score 1 automatic hit and then the opponent will flee again.

Available Hired Swords
Pit Fighter,Ogre Bodyguard, Warlock, Dwarf Trollslayer (upkeep 20 gc),
Dwarf Treasure Hunter (upkeep 60 gc), Imperial Assassin, Tilean Marksman, Fallen Sister.
Edit: Dark Elf Assassin

[Hyetemplar]

no M6 assassins? *crys* *jumps off cliff*

the spells are a bit too difficult imo

as for the SUN how about calling it "whiff killer"

[Loflar]

no M6 assassins? *crys* *jumps off cliff*

You see? If I included him, he might kill some models. By not including him, I can make players to kill themselves. It is much more effective this way ;-)

OK, the true reason is, that he is not official according to Rules Review, and will need some work, after we finish the warband.

the spells are a bit too difficult imo

I don't think so. The difficulties are about the same as difficulties of similar spells from other spell lists. But magic is still waiting for a final review. Watch the A3 thread.

[Deathangel_321]

All you changes seem rational as we have decided. Yes, Feared and Respected is designed to have at the beginning [or that's what I think...]
Yes, the assassin will be worked on later.
I'm not sure about including dwarves at all, they aren't even that friendly with normal elves, let alone us. [Although as some have said, how would they know the difference? Let me think... ]
I think all the spells that hard is a bit too much, maybe another 7?

Fow now, I say we have the Imperial assassin rules but proxy-fy him as a dark elf.
Nice definition of SUN, i can't see any loops.

Still unsure about the PoisenUN, name wise.
Maybe lordlings should be 0-3, otherwise you have to take all the heroes for 5 heroes. And I like choice.
±

[Ansob.]

Good job compiling it - it's isn't quite what the Alpha 4 will look like, but it's on the way to it. I'd told you to wait for this weekend, by the way - I was planning to do it tomorrow.

I'd advise you to include the assassin in the HS list - we want to playtest him too and see if anything's wrong with him.

Spell values are as they were discussed by Arq, myself and someone else I can't remember a long time ago, when the revision had barely started. For now, they stay; extensive PTing will tell us if they need to change.

All's well, then. Feared and Respected is indeed meant to be had at the very beginning, and is a "character skill." I <3 Cenyu for finding that one.

[Loflar]

I'd advise you to include the assassin in the HS list - we want to playtest him too and see if anything's wrong with him.

OK, he is in. But I don't think that it will help. People are pretty conservative here and I will have a hard time to get the warband approved.
People somehow do not like elves here...

During first round of negotiations, I was told, that there is no elven warband which is not overpowered.
I was also told, that one of biggest elven annoyances is The Radar (i.e. Excelent Sight). This is the first thing people complain about, when they see Elf ranger.

[Ansob.]

Maybe lordlings should be 0-3, otherwise you have to take all the heroes for 5 heroes. And I like choice.

Who said you had to take five heroes, especially in an elven warband?

Oh, yes, a typo I just spotted. I believe you'll find that the range for the whip is whiplash, not whipcrack. I think.

[Deathangel_321]

I didn't say you had to, I just prefer the game centred around heroes, it is more RPish and fun IMO, henchmen just don't ever matter as much or get the amount of character/background...
±

[Loflar]

Oh, yes, a typo I just spotted. I believe you'll find that the range for the whip is whiplash, not whipcrack. I think.

It may be a matter of discussion, but I think that I have it right. Mordheim rules review changed description of Sigmarite's steel whip, because it could be aesily abused, replacing whipslash with whipcrack. It is now also in LRB - just check the Mordheim site.

We may discuss, if we want to keep the traditional Whipslash (reach 4" etc) or switch to Whipcrack, but for this list, I chose to stick to official rules.

[Cat-the-odd]

±Deathangel± is right. In campaings one tends to start with the maximum heros to get the max. dice for rolling on the exploration chart and for wyrdstone income! So first maximisation of hero choices, then adding some hencemen....

[Ansob.]

I didn't say you had to, I just prefer the game centred around heroes, it is more RPish and fun IMO, henchmen just don't ever matter as much or get the amount of character/background...
±

That's ultimately your choice. The last (and only, really) warband I composed had as much fluff for the characters as it had for each individual trooper.

We may discuss, if we want to keep the traditional Whipslash (reach 4" etc) or switch to Whipcrack, but for this list, I chose to stick to official rules.

There's a difference between whiplash and whipcrack? Okay, so I missed something. What's whipcrack? Whiplash is the new range, last I checked.

[Cenyu]

Tackle On the turn of a charge, a Warhound will automatically knock its foe down on a To Hit roll of a "6." In this case, the Hound may not attack this close combat phase.

I´d change this to may not further roll to wound this round. He has only one attack which he already made to tackle the enemy, didn´t he.


Apart from that I´d really like to sign up for the "No Bows"-petition.

Throwing Knives - yay, why not.
Ordinary Crossbows - yay.
Crossbow pistl - yay!
Bows - nay.

For me it is a matter of both "style" and "concealment". I just don´t expect a Shade to run around with a bow which can´t be fired very well from narrow spaces and cover. Plus it of course does not go well with the Druchii background.


The only further reason to rant would be the T4, but whatever. Except those two points I like the Alpha. Very much.

[Loflar]

I looked there again. Steelwhip is CC weapon, S as user. Spec. rules: Cannot be parried, Whipcrack. I am too lazy to repeat all the Whipcrack description here, but basically, 4" range is gone and you get +1A which strikes first.

Tackle On the turn of a charge, a Warhound will automatically knock its foe down on a To Hit roll of a "6." In this case, the Hound may not attack this close combat phase.

I´d change this to may not further roll to wound this round. He has only one attack which he already made to tackle the enemy, didn´t he.

Yes, this is better wording. Changed. ANSOB, please, put the change also to your Alpha.

For me it is a matter of both "style" and "concealment". I just don´t expect a Shade to run around with a bow which can´t be fired very well from narrow spaces and cover.

Yes, I can agree with that.

[Ansob.]

I hate to enforce my opinion, but this is one point on which I will not cede any ground. Bows are staying. They are an elven weapon, no harder to conceal than a bloody crossbow that needs to be oiled every few hours, kept dry, have its strings waxed, have clips carried around - in fact, it is much easier to conceal said bow than to conceal said repeater crossbow. Crossbows, on the other hand, are gross constructs, not even manufactured by elves. We have the repeater crossbow, which is far superior to it. I hate to be a prick, but bows are staying. Remember all the people who keep complaining about how they wouldn't be able to make a missile warband? Well, the bow solves this. Adding crossbows and ditchin the bow doesn't, and doesn't make any sense either.

About whipcrack: ah, cool, okay. Haven't checked the LRB since before the revision, so that explains it.

With regards to the warhounds - the new wording is he can't wound. What happens if for some reason or another he gets a second atack? He gets to roll a second attack but can't wound? Great. No, I think the old wording was fine as it was. Besides, the "not further roll to wound" makes no sense, since the warhound isn't rolling to wound in the first place.

One last change - swap "will automatically knock its foe down on a" for "may choose to knock its foe down on a." Leaving it as it is negates quite a bit of the punch, since you're incapable of doing any damage if you roll a six. Swapping means the player has to choose between autoknocking down the enemy model or attacking it. Mordheim doesn't have a "critical" system, so a six won't have any added effect normally.

[Angel of algebra]

typo in the witch elf entry:

Special Rules
Fervour The Hag Trainee follows the Frenzy special rule.

[Loflar]

Bows are staying. They are an elven weapon, no harder to conceal than a bloody crossbow that needs to be oiled every few hours, kept dry, have its strings waxed, have clips carried around - in fact, it is much easier to conceal said bow than to conceal said repeater crossbow. Crossbows, on the other hand, are gross constructs,

I think that the concealment was meant in somewhat different way here. Crossbow can be loaded, and then you can wait in ambush, and when your target appears, immediately shoot without giving away your position. With bow, especially long bow, you have to stand up, load it, aim, and then you can shoot. That's why, in medieval, crossbow was considered an insidous weapon. I believe that somewhere it was even forbidden, at least for non-military use.

With regards to the warhounds - the new wording is he can't wound. What happens if for some reason or another he gets a second atack? He gets to roll a second attack but can't wound? Great. No, I think the old wording was fine as it was. Besides, the "not further roll to wound" makes no sense, since the warhound isn't rolling to wound in the first place.

One last change - swap "will automatically knock its foe down on a" for "may choose to knock its foe down on a." Leaving it as it is negates quite a bit of the punch, since you're incapable of doing any damage if you roll a six. Swapping means the player has to choose between autoknocking down the enemy model or attacking it. Mordheim doesn't have a "critical" system, so a six won't have any added effect normally.

Then what about this way: Before charge, player states if the dog tries to tackle the charged model. If yes, then it only gets one attack (regardless all other modifiers) which will knock charged model down on a roll of 6. If no, dog attacks in a usual way.

About dogs rolling to wound, I can only say, that it is sad, that we could not have bloodthirsty giant hedgehogs instead ;-)

typo in the witch elf entry:

Yes.

However, I have already sent the list to other players, so I will not make any further changes here.

[Lord aldarith]

Hi lads,
nice work so far. I've been following most of the threads about Modrheim for DE since Druchii.net got gback online. I must say I'm quite pleased with the job done so far. So I figured I might throw in a few more ideas.

1- I am uncomfortable too with the fact that bow got in the equipment (sorry ANSOB !) However, I have a solution that (I hope) will make everyone happy and would be much more appealing fluffwise. This was inspired by Loflar whenhe said

"Crossbow can be loaded, and then you can wait in ambush, and when your target appears, immediately shoot without giving away your position. [...] That's why, in medieval, crossbow was considered an insidous weapon"

How about a weapon called "Light crossbow" then ? It would have the exact profile of a bow (Range: 24", S: 3) with only a special rule that says "does not reveal your position when shot" which would make it 50% or 100% more expensive than a normal bow (so that it costs 15 or 20 gc).
And this weapon can be "upgraded" to a "Repeater crossbow" for the difference in gc between this crossbow and the repeater one (10 or 15 gc depending on the basic price we choose) AND would then lose the capacity of leaving the shooter undetected (when multiple bolts are being shot, it is easier to spot the shooter).
This way we get the advantage of having a bow-like item in the Equipment list (although a bit more expensive than the real bow, which might be a bit of a concern). For matters of conversion, I think it might not be too difficult to take a plastic crossbow from the DE warriors boxed sets and NOT add the multiple bolts...

2- I just love the fact that witch elves got back here. Loved the Hag trainee too, but it's true it might not be accepted to have 5 types of heroes. Add to that the complications of an exclusive aspect for the sorceress... Anyhow, I had a thought about making "Sorceress or Hag trainee" appear as a single customisable character called "Cultist".
- A Slaanesh cultist would be the Sorceress and would have access to dark magic, whereas a Khaine cultist would be a Hag trainee, CC oriented.
- The Slaanesh cultist would limit the Witch elves to 0-2 and have the special described rule for Ld within 6 ft
- The Hag trainee on the other hand would allow a 0-3 choice for Witch elves, would be able to give them her leadership within 6 Ft (>Ld 9 for example) but when such a character is in the band, the Witch Elves would then not be entitled to use the Noble's leadership even when they are within 6 Ft of him (their allegiance goes to Khaine - and his Hag - first). This WE rule is the same as for Morathi in the normal DE army list, when she is not chosen as general.

This way people can choose their "allegiance". But it might be a wee complicated to get all that in a "simplest possible" band list. Anyway, thought it might be of interest, even if I know there is another thread about Witch Elves. The profile of the Hag trainee was already given and seemed fine to me.

Enough for now !

[Ansob.]

That's why, in medieval, crossbow was considered an insidous weapon. I believe that somewhere it was even forbidden, at least for non-military use.[/quote

Actually, no. The Church issued a world-wide ban on the usage of crossbows because with it, a simple peasant could shoot down one of the Church's elite soldiers, the knights.

Then what about this way: Before charge, player states if the dog tries to tackle the charged model. If yes, then it only gets one attack (regardless all other modifiers) which will knock charged model down on a roll of 6. If no, dog attacks in a usual way.

Actually, that's complicating things for no reason.
Tackle On the turn of the charge, a Warhound rolling a six on the To Hit roll may choose to automatically knock down one enemy model in base contact. If this option is chosen, then the Wrhound cannot attack at all this close combat phase.
Actually, you know, I think the Warhounds should be allowed to do that every round - after all, they're supposed to be big et al, and I've seen dogs keep a human down more than once. Besides, it doesn't change much.

About dogs rolling to wound, I can only say, that it is sad, that we could not have bloodthirsty giant hedgehogs instead ;-)

Well, you know, nothing's fixed yet. Care to whip up some rules?

As for typos, they don't much matter - this is only a "preview of the preview" list, so...

Aldartih: thanks for the praise. I like your idea of a light crossbow (but not it being upgradable - remember, this is kind of a commando op. I don't see the Druchii having a workshop et al to maintain their weapons, especially something like an rxb - imagine building an FN2000 assault rifle from scratch in the middle of a warzone...). The one problem is, we don't have the liberty to include more stuff. Unfortunately, the warband has to stay as close as possible to "canon" rules. One last point against these - the aim of the bow is to give us access to a cheap, mediocre ranged weapon which is still elven in essence. The aim of this isn't to make things more expensive in the missile fire domain, but to make it less expensive.

However, I have to contact Mr. Johnson about the list (basically to see if he hasn't forgotten) sometime soon, so I'll see if I can toss the idea of a "light crossbow" his way. Still, I'd be making it a name instead of a full-blown concept - i.e. we have access to light crossbows, S3, 24", 10GC, etc.

On the sects, I'll give you the answer I've been giving time and time again - Mordheim takes place some years ago. The Cult was still in hiding at that time, so no Slaaneshi in this warband.

[Cat-the-odd]

Again a word to the bow-or-not-bow question: Still I don't like it for our shades, but imagining the situation in a city where insanity is the only law... we have the rxb, and a bow is available at every 'shop' there... And the rules for another xbow is not really necessary. Hit me, if not.
Throwing knifes are cool! But the did not appear at the dark elves yet, so we should forget about this now, maybe.

[Loflar]

Actually, no. The Church issued a world-wide ban on the usage of crossbows because with it, a simple peasant could shoot down one of the Church's elite soldiers, the knights.

You are right.

Then what about this way: Before charge, player states if the dog tries to tackle the charged model. If yes, then it only gets one attack (regardless all other modifiers) which will knock charged model down on a roll of 6. If no, dog attacks in a usual way.

Actually, that's complicating things for no reason.
Tackle On the turn of the charge, a Warhound rolling a six on the To Hit roll may choose to automatically knock down one enemy model in base contact. If this option is chosen, then the Wrhound cannot attack at all this close combat phase.

The reason of forcing player to declare it before charge was, that if player first rolls and then chooses what to do, it might not be well accepted by others. And that is the only difference between our wordings I see.

Actually, you know, I think the Warhounds should be allowed to do that every round - after all, they're supposed to be big et al, and I've seen dogs keep a human down more than once. Besides, it doesn't change much.

I must admit that I never witnessed a man fighting a dog (or two or three). I have a dog and I know, that dog (of a reasonable size) which has some starting run and jumps at a man in a height of his chest can easily strike him down. When I came with this rule, I wanted to emphasize the pack mentality - one dog strikes a man down, the other finishes him.
About dog keeping a man down - I believe, that if the man was not hurted, then the dog did not take it seriously. Otherwise the man would be bitten to arm or leg (or elsewhere), which in Mordheim terms means, that he would be OOA.

About dogs rolling to wound, I can only say, that it is sad, that we could not have bloodthirsty giant hedgehogs instead ;-)

Well, you know, nothing's fixed yet. Care to whip up some rules?

No. When I suggested tigers, they were refused. And there are no giant hedgehogs in GW miniatures range. ;-)

Aldartih: thanks for the praise. I like your idea of a light crossbow (but not it

I like it as well.

I don't see the Druchii having a workshop et al to maintain their weapons, especially something like an rxb - imagine building an FN2000 assault rifle from scratch in the middle of a warzone...).

Have you seen "The Naked Gun"? I believe it was the second one, where the cop starts with a pistol and upgrades it into something like AA gun...

[Lord aldarith]

Few things sprung to my mind during my boring workday...

Fiirst concerning the idea of a light crossbow : I read you answer ansob and I understand it might be hard to get it in our band equipment. However, you could argue that it is not so different from a bow and that it fits the background of DE much much better than the bow.

Actually what I was thinking was that this could be a weapon used by more than a race : why would skaven or empire folk not use it ? Practical, cheap yet stealthy ? Perfect weapon for Mordheim in general ! But of course, it might not be our role to invent new rules or new equipment for the whole game... I somehow feel that you might answer this is not our job ! Whatever, forget about this idea if you think it is really not the place to do it.
Now if it is really impossible to add this new weapon, we could just imagine the light crossbow to have the same profile as a normal bow. It would just be for the fluff and for DE players to stop complaining (as I surely would) about having a bow in the equipment.

Then, completely unrelated business : must our dogs or beasts or whatever we call them, be on a 20x20mm base (like DE infantry) ? or should they be on a 25x50 (cavalry) base ? They are supposed to be smaller than cold ones which would make me think of a 20x20mm base, but being bigger than the witch hunter's dogs, I was sort of wondering. Would a 25x25mm base (like chaos infantry) be a good compromise then ? Or does it not matter at all - I somehow think it does ?

[Cenyu]

Cavalry bases are no good for Mordheim and too unwieldy - unless you actually play with cavalry. I´d say they occupy a large infantry base aka. 25*25mm.

[Loflar]

My dogs occupy basic infantry 20x20 mm base, the same as witch hunter dogs.

A question. What does the Dark Venom entry in a special equipment mean? Does it mean, that for Druchii, Dark Venom is cheaper and not rare?

[Ansob.]

A question. What does the Dark Venom entry in a special equipment mean? Does it mean, that for Druchii, Dark Venom is cheaper and not rare?

No - it's still home-made. You'll notice that both the sdc and darksteel items are also in there, yet Rare.

[Loflar]

So this is the poison, which Master of poisons can prepare? In that case, what does the price mean? I thought that master of poisons makes poisons for free.