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Druchii Warband Revision - Pre-Beta Release 
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Follower of Malal
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:37 pm
Posts: 2726
Location: Colchester, Essex (UK).
I decided we had too many stickies lying around the forum, so I figured it as time to summarise everything that was said (generally amounting to not a lot :P) and make a new Alpha. Here we go (as usual, proofread for any mistakes if you please, since I'm not a one-man-army):

Changelog:
  • SUN modified;
  • maximum attacks decreased, even though we should be A5 because we're better >.>;
  • A²/3.5 BM stats added;
  • Sorceress Sectarism text cleaned up;
  • SDC issue delt with;
  • Hounds issue solved! Yay! ^^
  • Maibd poison special rule added; price bumped up 5 gc;
  • MoP reverted to its A3 version (but d2 doses of d3-1);
  • Hired Swords added;
  • Lithe added. This is the last special rule we include;
  • SDC is armour;
  • Heroes and corsairs were overpriced according to the Lustria list: Lordlings were 40 gc so that's 45 now (can shoot); Sorceress got a major stat decrease and was 55, so she's 45; Beastmaster got a stat decrease and so loses 5 gc. The Noble pays 5 gc for Feared and Respected, which is now 1/3 casualties instead of 50%. Remember our special rules are compensating for some stuff;
  • A couple of minor changes to the equipment list;
  • Lithe made a run for it, since we don't have access to heavy/ithilmar armour anyway.


Loflar's changelog:
  • Added Frail but Fey as an alternative to Long-Lived
  • Moved Darksteel Waepon to Special Equipment
  • Reworded Slavehound rules as Ninale suggested.
  • Reworded rules for darksteel to make them more clear.




Mordheim : Druchii warband
Alpha 4!



There are none living who know the ways of the elves, save perhaps the mighty lizard-priests of the South whose knowledge and power is rumoured to grow far beyond that even of the High Mages of the College of Magic of Altdorf. Those few elves who roam the lands of the Empire are mysterious, their ways impenetrable to us.

There are those who, like Finubar the Proud, openly declare themselves Manfriend and help defend our glorious Empire from the encroaching forces of Chaos - too few of them, unfortunately. Of those, we know what they would have us know - their history and that of their families, and a little of the history of their land - the fabled island of Ulthuan. There are those who stalk the night, warriors who come cloaked in darkness and wielding bows, the death in their eyes revealed in their prey as their life is snuffed out like a candle atop Brass Keep by one, well-placed arrow shot - of those we know little, save that they name themselves "Shadow warriors of Nagarythe" and, as their kindred of Ulthuan reassure us, they seek to do us no harm.

There are those who protect the forests, defending them from touch of Chaos and Man alike. There are also rumours of a fourth breed of elves - a grim race, ruthless and sadistic. They come at night in their low ships with sails of midnight-black, craving the poison that lurks within the now-ruins of Mordheim, the Weyrdstone of which all those who go to the Cursed City and return speak. They leave no witnesses, taking prisoner those who are able-bodied enough to toil under them in slavery, murdering the others.

Of course, such nonsense is only that - rumours, and nonsense, the delusional affabulations of crazed minds that have seen the taint of Chaos from too close. It may be that some elves are more ruthless than others, but they are just that - elves, and their ways are closed to us.



Choice of Warriors

A Druchii warband must include a minimum of three models. You have 500 gold crowns to recruit your initial warband. The maximum number of warriors in a warband may never exceed 12.

  • Heroes
    Noble Each Druchii warband must have one Noble to lead it - no more, no less.
    Lordlings Your warband may include up to two Lordlings.
    Sorceress Your warband may include one Sorceress.
    Beastmaster Your warband may include one Beastmaster.
  • Henchmen
    Corsairs Your warband may include any number of corsairs.
    Shades Your warband may include up to five shades.
    Witch Elves Your warband may include up to three Witch Elves.
    Slavehounds Your warband may include up to three Slavehounds if it also includes a Beastmaster.


Starting Experience

A Noble starts with 20 experience.
Lordlings start with 12 experience.
A Sorceress starts with 12 experience.
A Beastmaster starts with 8 experience.
Henchmen start with 0 experience.

Maximum Characteristics

Characteristics for Druchii warriors may not be increased beyond the maximum limits shown here:

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  7  7 4 4 3 9 4 10


May Hire

A Dark Elf warband may employ the following Hired Swords: Pit Fighter, Ogre Bodyguard, Warlock, Imperial Assassin, Tilean Marksman and Dark Elf Assassin.

Special Rules

Kindred Hatred The Dark Elves have been fighting the High Elves for many centuries. The wars between these two races have been very long and bloody affairs. Dark Elves Hate any High Elf warriors including High Elf Hired Swords.

Excellent Sight There are numerous legends detailing the excellent eyesight of the Elves, both Druchii and Asur kin. Elves can spot Hidden enemies from twice as far away than normal warriors (i.e. twice their Initiative value in inches).

Disdain Dark Elves may never use black powder weapons, as they find them too crude, noisy and unreliable.

Long-Lived Elves, as a race, can live right through dozens of human generations, with a lifespan spanning centuries rather than decades. Due to this, they take longer to advance through the ranks, as they do not have the short human lifespan to push them to great deeds before they die. As such, the first time any Dark Elf henchman rolls "The Lad's Got Talent", you must re-roll the dice. The second roll stands (even if you roll "The Lad's Got Talent" again). This represents the fact that elves must do much more than a member of the "lesser" races to gain the respect of their commander and comrades. Any later results of "The Lad's Got Talent" count as normal; only the first result rolled for each henchmen group must be re-rolled.


Long-Lived could be replaced with:

Frail but Fey Elves have a sort of delicate, but magical constitution. Elves may never permanently increase their Toughness attribute beyond a value of 3 (treat their Toughness as having reached its maximum value). However, their Toughness can never be permanently lowered (treat any injuries that would result in such a decrease as a Full Recovery instead). Thus, their Toughness must always be equal to 3.


Druchii equipment lists

The following lists are used by Druchii warbands to pick their weapons and armour:

Druchii Heroes Equipment list
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Code:
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Sword  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Double-handed weapon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Halberd  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Spear  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Beastlash (Beastmaster only) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc


Missile Weapons
Code:
Repeater Crossbow* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Crossbow Pistol  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 gc


Armour
Code:
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Shield  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Buckler . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Sea Dragon Cloak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 gc


Special Equipment
Code:
Dark Venom  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Darksteel Weapon  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 x Price


Corsairs Equipment list
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Code:
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Sword  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Halberd  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Spear  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc


Missile Weapons
Code:
Repeater Crossbow* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc


Armour
Code:
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Shield  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Buckler . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Sea Dragon Cloak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 gc


Shades equipment list
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Code:
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Sword  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc


Missile Weapons
Code:
Repeater Crossbow* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Bow  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc


Armour
Code:
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc


* These special prices represent the lower rarity of these items in Naggaroth. When attempting to purchase these items in Mordheim, Dark Elf warbands pay the same prices as other warbands and must roll to find them as normal. No roll is necessary to find these items when first starting a Dark Elf warband.

Druchii skill table

Noble Combat - Shooting - Academic - Speed - Special
Lordling Combat - Shooting - Speed - Special
Sorceress Academic - Speed - Special
Beastmaster Combat - Speed – Special


Heroes

1 Noble
75 Gold Crowns to hire
Dark Elf leaders are typically drawn from the Dark Elf nobility and lead the warband in search of gold, slaves and arcane artifacts to bring home to Naggaroth. They are cold and ruthless killers and they command the respect of their troops through assassination and terror. They have attained their position of leadership by eliminating those rivals who stood in their way and through their remarkable cunning, they are dangerous foes who embody the merciless traits of the Druchii race.

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  5  4 3 3 1 6 1  9


Weapons/Armour A Noble may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Druchii Heroes Equipment list.

Special Rules
Leader Any models in the warband within 6" of the Noble may use his Leadership instead of their own.

Feared and Respected Dark Elf Nobles are known to their troops for their cruelty and ruthlessness. As long as the Noble is not Out Of Action, the Druchii warband will only have to test for routing if it suffered more than a third of casualties instead of the normal quarter.

0-2 Lordlings
45 Gold Crowns to hire
Lordlings are would-be commanders of the Druchii forces, and often serve under a Noble as page or lieutenant. Lordlings accompany raiding parties to the Old World to further their career, seeking to acquire fame, riches and status in the Witch King’s court.

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  4  4 3 3 1 6 1  8


Weapons/Armour Lordlings may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Druchii Heroes Equipment list.

0-1 Dark Elf Sorceress
45 Gold Crowns to hire
Dark Elves are strange in that apart from the fell Witch King there are no other male sorcerers - all the other practitioners of magic in the Dark Elf race are female. It is rumoured that any males who do develop an affinity for magic amongst the Dark Elves are immediately put to death to prevent the fulfilling of some dark prophecy.
Dark Elf Sorceresses are mysterious, raven-haired beauties who are grudgingly respected even by the powerful Nobles, and their services are high in demand.

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  3  3 3 3 1 5 1  8


Weapons/Armour A Sorceress may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Druchii Heroes Equipment list, but may not cast spells if wearing armour.

Special Rules
Wizard The Dark Elf Sorceress is a wizard and uses Dark Magic, detailed below.

Sectarism (Convents) A Sorceress and a Witch Elf do not count as friendly models for the purposes of an All Alone test taken by a warrior of the other sect.

0-1 Beastmaster
40 Gold Crowns to hire
Whereas the High Elves have a great affinity with Dragons and Griffons and other noble creatures their malevolent kin have infamous Beastmasters, Dark Elves of particularly cruel renown who breed many vicious beasts and lead them into combat. Unlike the High Elves who treat their beasts as companions, the Dark Elf Beastmasters are very spiteful masters.

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  4  3 3 3 1 5 1  8


Weapons/Armour A Beastmaster may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Druchii Heroes Equipment list.

Special Rules
Slavehounds The Beastmaster may be accompanied by up to three Slavehounds. These are bought as henchmen and follow all rules listed for them.

Henchmen
Bought in groups of 1-5.

Corsairs
35 Gold Crowns to hire
The Dark Elves are cruel and fierce fighters. This is especially true of the Corsairs - the Black Ark Raiders. They are skilled with sword and axe, as well as the repeater crossbow, the distinct missile weapon of the Dark Elves. Whenever Druchii ships reach foreign shores, the Corsairs are the first to launch raiding parties.

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  4  3 3 3 1 5 1  8


Weapons/Armour Corsairs may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Dark Elf Equipment list. In addition, they may wear Sea Dragon Cloaks even though they are not Heroes.

0-5 Shades

35 Gold Crowns to hire
The stealthy Dark Elf Shades rely on their repeater crossbows to harass and snipe at the enemy, rather than engaging them head on, as ambush is their preferred style of fighting. These Shades are young and inexperienced scouts that see the expeditions to the Old World as a valuable training opportunity.

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  3  4 3 3 1 5 1  8


Weapons/Armour Shades may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Shades Equipment list.

Natural Stealth The first thing that Dark Elf scouts master is the art of moving without being seen or heard. If a Shade is Hidden, enemy models suffer -1 to their Initiative value for determining if they can detect it or not.

0-3 Witch Elves
45 Gold Crowns to hire
Witch Elves are the lethally beautiful followers of Khaine, the Bloody-Handed god of murder, vengeance and war.Those amongst the devoted who seek to become full-fledged priestesses of Khaine and learn His holy canons are sent on missions for the Temple, to prove their worth in the eyes of their god, and also serve to spy upon those Nobles who are temporarily out of the King's grasp.

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  4  3 3 3 1 5 1  8


Weapons/Armour Witch Elves may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Druchii equipment list, barring all missile weapons.

Fervour Witch Elves, being intent on proving their battle prowess in Khaela Mensha Khaine's all-seeing gaze, follow the Frenzy special rule.

Sectarism (Temple) A Witch Elf and a Sorceress do not count as friendly models for the purposes of an All Alone test taken by a warrior of the other sect. Note that for a Witch Elf this will only apply should she lose her Frenzy.

Maibd poison Witch elves, in battle, carry sacred weapons anointed in holy poisons traditionally used to paralyse slaves before their sacrifice. As such, any model Stunned or Knocked Down will only recover on a roll of 4+. This effect lasts until the Dark Elf player's next turn.

0-3 Slavehounds
25 Gold Crowns to hire
The Dark Elves capture and breed many exotic creatures to fight for them, and fights between pets are often staged as a form of entertainment amongst the Dark Elves. Myriads of such animals can be discovered in the Chaos Wastes. Among them is the Slavehound, a fierce breed of wild hounds that resemble wolves more than dogs. The Dark Elves capture and train these creatures to fight in battles all over the Warhammer World.

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
7  4  0 4 3 1 4 1  5


Weapons/Armour Slavehounds are animals and do not need any weapons, save their claws and massive jaws.

Special Rules
Animals Slavehounds are animals, and all animal rules apply to them. They never gain experience.

Beastmaster Slavehounds are vicious creatures that are barely kept under control. If the Beastmaster dies the beasts will immediately escape from the warband - remove them from the warband roster. If the Beastmaster is unable to participate in a battle, then neither will the beasts.


Trained Slavehounds are wild creatures who have a ferocious fighting spirit, trained to take orders from the cruel Beastmasters. If within 6", the Slavehound may use Beastmaster's Leadership instead of its own for any Leadership tests. If the Beastmaster is in range of the Leader ability, the Slavehound can use the increased Leadership value.

Stupid Unless they are within 6" of a Beastmaster at the start of their turn, Slavehounds are subject to the rules for Stupidity. Until a Beastmaster comes into range, the Hounds are as likely to attack an enemy as stop to gnaw on a stray bone or wander off randomly.


Take down Slavehounds are trained to catch fleeing slaves and drag them to a halt as fast as possible. On the turn a Slavehound charges, any result of 6 on the To Hit roll will result in one model in base-to-base contact being immediately Knocked Down. Since the Slavehound forgoes a more damaging attack to bring its prey down, it does not roll to wound this close combat phase.


Special Equipment

Darksteel Weapon
(3 x Price/Rare 9)

Darksteel weapons are forged in the city of Hag Graef, the Dark Crag. They are fashioned from black steel, a rare form of steel found deep within the mountains around the city and are forged using an ancient technique known only to the Dark Elves. Darksteel weapons have wicked protrusions and serrated edges, which inflict serious damage on an opponent. Any Druchii hero can use a close-combat weapon made from Dark steel. Getting it, however, is not that easy, and it costs three times more that usual steel weapon of the same type. Weapons made from the Dark Steel have all abilities of their usual counterparts (i.e. swords can parry, double-handed weapons strike last).



Range Close Combat; Strength As user; Special Rules Critical Damage, Wicked Edge.

Special Rules
Critical Damage Darksteel weapons inflict serious damage on their opponents. When rolling on the critical hit chart, a Darksteel weapon will add +1 to the result.

Wicked Edge Darksteel weapons are set with sharp protrusions and serrated edges which inflict serious damage on an opponent. A roll of 2-4 on the injury table is a stunned result.

Beastlash (Beastmaster only)
(10+D6 Gold Crowns/Rare 8 )
The Beastmaster make good use of their whips to goad their hounds and creatures into combat.


Range Close combat; Strength As user -1; Special Rules Beastbane; Whipcrack; Cannot be parried.

Special Rules
Beastbane The Beastmaster wielding a Beastlash causes Fear in animals. Any animal charged by or wishing to charge a Beastmaster with one of these weapons must first take a fear test as mentioned in the psychology section of the Mordheim rules.

Whipcrack When the wielder charges they gain +1A for that turn. This bonus attack is added after any other modifications. When the wielder is charged they gain +1A that they may only use against the charger. This additional attack will ‘strike first’. If the wielder is simultaneously charged by two or more opponents they will still only receive a total of +1A. If the wielder is using two whips at the same time then they get +1A for the additional hand weapon, but only the first whip gets the whipcrack +1A.

Cannot be parried A Beastlash, being a very flexible weapon and used with great expertise by the Beastmaster wielding it, cannot be parried.

Sea Dragon Cloak
(35+2D6 Gold Crowns/Rare 10)
Dark Elf Corsairs use special cloaks fashioned from the skin and scales of the sea monsters that dwell deep in the oceans depths. These cloaks are tough and resilient, and offer Dark Elves a very good amount of protection.

Special Rules
Scales The wearer of the Sea Dragon receives a +2 bonus to his save against shooting (or in the event where he has none, a 5+ save) and a +1 bonus to his save in close combat (or, if he has none, a 6+ save). A Sea Dragon Cloak may be combined with other pieces of armour (shield, light armour) with no penalty.


Druchii Skill Table

Dark Elf Heroes may use the following Skill table instead of any of the standard skill tables available to them:

Fury of Khaine
The Dark Elf is infused with an intense raging thirst for blood and is a whirlwind in hand-to-hand combat, moving from opponent to opponent. The Druchii may make a 4" follow up move if he takes all of his opponents out of action. If he comes into contact with another enemy, this starts a new combat. This
new combat takes place in the following turn and the model counts as charging.

Fey Quickness
Few can ever hope to match an Elf ’s inhuman quickness and agility. An Elf with Fey Quickness can avoid melee or missile attacks on a roll of 6. If the Elf also has Step Aside or Dodge this will increase to a 4+ in the relevant area. For example, an Elf with Fey Quickness and Step Aside avoids melee attacks on a 4+ and missile attacks on a 6.

Infiltration
The Dark Elf can Infiltrate. This skill is exactly the same as the Skaven skill.

Master of Poisons
The Dark Elf is proficient in concocting different poisons. If the Hero doesn’t search for rare items, he may make D2 doses of Dark Venom instead. The poison must be used in the next battle and cannot be sold or traded to other warbands as the Dark Elves guard their secrets very carefully.

Counter Attack
An experienced fighter can anticipate the moves of his enemy to avoid his attack while performing an attack of his own. If any enemy model in base contact with the Hero fails at least one to-hit roll, the Hero gets an additional attack.


Dark Magic

Like their hated Asur kin, the Dark Elves are accomplished practitioners of magic. However, whereas the High Elves essentially use magic defensively and for the power of good, the Dark Elves utilise the evil powers of Dark Magic - a very destructive force indeed.

D6 Result
1 Doombolt
Difficulty 8
Whispering an ancient incantation, the Sorceress conjures a bolt of pure dark energy and unleashes it from her outstretched hand.
The Doombolt may be targeted at any enemy model in line of sight. The bolt has an 18" range and causes a Strength 5 hit. If the target model is wounded, then the next closest model within 6" is also hit on a 4+, at -1 Strength than the previous hit. The bolt will keep leaping until there are no more targets within range or until its Strength drops to a one. Take armour saves as normal.

2 Word of Pain
Difficulty 8
The Sorceress calls down the wrath of Khaine upon her enemy, causing his resolve to disappear.
The spell may be cast at an enemy model within 12". The victim must re-roll all successful hand to hand or missile attacks and all to wound rolls. If the victim wishes to charge, he must pass a successful Leadership test first. Lasts until the beginning of the next Dark Elf turn.

3 Soul Stealer
Difficulty 9
At the Sorceress’s touch, the essence of life is drained from her enemy and absorbed into her body, giving her renewed strength and vigour.
Once successfully cast, the Sorceress has to make a to hit roll against a model in base contact. If the attack is successful and her opponent is struck, he suffers a wound with no armour save possible. The Sorceress feeds on this life-force and adds one wound to her current total.
Note: the Sorceress can never have more then one extra wound on her profile from the use of this spell (she may cast it as many times as she wishes to regain lost wounds) and the extra wound is lost once the battle is over.

4 Black Blade of Khaine
Difficulty 8
Summoning Dark Magic, the Sorceress engulfs a weapon in twisted black flames.
The Sorceress may choose the hand-to-hand combat weapon of a member of her warband within 6" to be engulfed in flames. A weapon with these flames acts as a normal weapon of its type, but adds a +2 bonus to the user’s Strength. Hits inflicted from the weapon ignore armour saves. Lasts until the Sorceress’ next shooting phase.

5 Deathspasm
Difficulty 9
The Sorceress channels Dark Magic into her enemy, causing him to writhe in excruciating pain.
The Deathspasm has a range of 6" and must be cast on the closest enemy model. The affected model must roll on the injury chart. If successfully cast, the casting Sorceress is immediately knocked down. This cannot be prevented by using the Jump Up skill.

6 Witch Flight
Difficulty 7
The Sorceress bends the winds of magic to her will and flies through the air.
The Sorceress may immediately move anywhere within 12", and may count as charging. If she engages a fleeing enemy in the close combat phase, she will score 1 automatic hit and then the opponent will flee again.

Stuff we import from Lustria. Possibly things I forgot.

_________________
General Kala wrote:
Cenyu wrote:
Hail to the King, baby.
All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.


Last edited by Ansob. on Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:23 pm, edited 47 times in total.



Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:03 pm
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:37 pm
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Location: Colchester, Essex (UK).
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An important issue has just come to my attention (thanks Cenyu). Warhounds of Chaos (which are WFB models) are already Beastmen hecnhmen and not the same rules, whilst Warhounds are Witch Hunter henchmen and not the same rules. That means we can't have the BM's pets under any of those names. Besides, none of those a DE models.

What does this mean? It means that unless we can find a suitable model that's a part of the current WFB range and use that to replace our doggies (but same stats and same rules), then the hounds have to go. And the only possible replacement would be harpies, thus introducing flying into Mordheim - a bad idea. If neither of those two is possible, the BM and dogs would have to go.

That leaves us a hero and a henchman choice short. Whilst we could probably live with three henchmen (I could), and the extra hero can always be the assassin HS (dwarfs got the trollslayer, who is also a HS), I know a lot of people would like the BM to stay (and so would I, since he was in the original list).

_________________
General Kala wrote:
Cenyu wrote:
Hail to the King, baby.
All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.


Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:45 pm
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Shadowdancer
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:16 pm
Posts: 4987
Location: The deepest pits in a hell of my own making
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Quote:
If neither of those two is possible, the BM and dogs would have to go.

*cough*

What? I haven't been advocating their removal from the very begining or anything...

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Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:59 pm
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Sure; but a lot of people still like them (and I'm particularly fond of the warhounds' knockdown rule). :P

_________________
General Kala wrote:
Cenyu wrote:
Hail to the King, baby.
All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.


Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:24 pm
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Khaindar
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1) Witch Elves: After clearing up the misunderstanding about Witches and Poison in WHFB ;) I think poison for the henchwomen is fluffy and justifiable.

Maibd poison: While this poison is not as potent as many other toxins known to the followers of the Temple of Khaine it is easily accessible by Witch Elves even far away from Naggaroth. Even smallest amounts are sufficient to paralyze an individual.

Models wounded by a Witch Elf do not recover automatically at the start of their next round but only on the roll of a 4+.

[Optional addition: If a Witch Elf uses weapons coated with a conventional poison like Dark Venom the bonus from the Maibd Poison is lost (since only one poison can be applied at a time.]

2) If the BM & Entourage really should go:

Assassin Adept: 70 gc to hire

M5 WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I7 A1 Ld8

Rules: Immune to all-alone-tests, Sectarian, Natural Stealth (-2 I perhaps?), May never be leader, Concealed deployment.

Concealed deployment: Instead of deploying the Assassin normally you can choose to deploy him in a special way:

1) As described in the special rule: "Infiltration"

2) Hidden in a suitable terrain feature (e.g. a building)

3) Disguised as a henchman - until revealed the Assassin is represented by a normal henchman model.

If way 2) or 3) are used, the exact location /representing model must be noted down before the game to ensure that no cheating occurs. ;)

At the start of any phase the Dark Elf player may decide to reveal the Assassin allowing him to act normally the rest of the turn (i.e. shoot, fight, move).

Way 1) & 2) should of course be disallowed on inappropriate scenarios.


These are raw rules I thought off during chatting tonight. Feel freee to comment on their (un)viability.

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Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:08 pm
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A neutral shade of black. wrote:
Alpha 4!

4! = 24 ;-)

Quote:
Characteristics for Druchii warriors may not be increased beyond the maximum limits shown here:

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5  7  7 4 4 3 9 5 10


Maximum A should be 4, as in maximum elf stats in rulebook.

Quote:
Missile Weapons
Repeater Crossbow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 gc
Crossbow Pistol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 gc

I like the idea of throwing knives. Why not to include them?

Quote:
Sectarism (Convents) Witch Elves and Sorceress do not count as a friendly model for the purposes of an All Alone test for a warrior of the other sect. Note that for a Witch Elf this will only apply should she lose her Frenzy.

I think that the last sentence should be left out here.

Quote:
0-1 Beastmaster
Still needs a background and some stats.

What about background and stats from A2? At least this is what I used for A35.

Quote:
Poison rule left out because it needs a name and makes them a tad overpowered, if you ask me.

It probably is a bit overpowered (I did not yet have a chance to try it, though). But without the poison, WE will become worse then corsair for more money. Frenzy is IMHO very mixed blessing...

Quote:
Ferocious Charge

This is also name of Trollslayers special rule (or skill?). Cannot it pose a problem?

Quote:
Scales 6+ armour save in close combat, 5+ armour save against missiles; may be combined with other pieces of armour (light armour, shield, etc.) with no penalties.

According to this wording, SDC is a piece of armour.

Quote:
Master of Poisons
So which part of the requirements are we cutting out of this? What's below is a temporary reword; feel free to comment.
The Druchii is proficient in concocting different harmful poisons from every day materials. At the end of a game, the Hero with this skill may “make” a maximum of D3 Dark Venom doses at the price of 15gc per dose. These doses cannot be sold or traded, as the Dark Elves guard their secrets very closely.
If you ask me, this is a step in the right direction. It removes the Rare roll that people kept complaining about, makes it cheaper to buy (15 gc as opposed to, IIRC, 15+d6 gc) yet still keeps it limited.

Yes, it looks better.

Quote:
SUN (Skill of Undecided Name) I swear, this name is going to stick. Someone is going to try to get a name the acronym of which remains SUN, I can feel it. >.>

Stab Under Nose?

Quote:
Roll to resolve immediately; this attack may take out the enemy model before he has made all of his attacks.

If you wish... I see no reason for this.

Quote:
Still to be added: list of Hired Swords, other things we import from Lustria. There were a couple of extras, but I forget what now - I'm sure someone else'll remember.

Hired Swords (from A35): Pit Fighter,Ogre Bodyguard, Warlock, Imperial Assassin, Tilean Marksman, Fallen Sister.

Those HS are oficial according to rules review or new after it and are not explicitly reserved for other warbands or somehow disallowed for DE (like "this one will not work for evil warbands").


Quote:
Warhounds of Chaos (which are WFB models) are already Beastmen hecnhmen and not the same rules, whilst Warhounds are Witch Hunter henchmen and not the same rules. That means we can't have the BM's pets under any of those names. Besides, none of those a DE models.

What does this mean? It means that unless we can find a suitable model that's a part of the current WFB range and use that to replace our doggies (but same stats and same rules), then the hounds have to go. And the only possible replacement would be harpies, thus introducing flying into Mordheim - a bad idea. If neither of those two is possible, the BM and dogs would have to go.

I thought that we have to choose an animal, for which a model exists. I don't understand, why we cannot use a model already used by other warband. So IMHO it is just a naming issue. If we really cannot use those models, could we at least resort to dogs of farmer Maggot? (It might boost LOTR sales, you know ;-)

If we have to drop BM, then I want the Bloodshade back ;-)

Edit: I have just reread (<- is it English?) the reply of Jervis Johnson. It says:
JJ wrote:
In a nutshell, if you can come up with
a Dark Elf warband that works well for Mordheim, and which uses the
*Warhammer* miniatures range to represent the members of the Warband, then
I'll be happy to consider making it an official addition to the game.
...
if the warband is going to work as an official
addition to the game it needs to draw on the currently available Dark Elf
range

The contradiction is probably result of his unability to concentrate as he was overloaded. Therefore I think that we can interpret it loosely. As being in Warhammer range is emphasized, my interpretation is that WH dogs (and dogs of farmer Maggot) are out of question. If we cannot use Chaos warhounds (why?) then there are still wolves of O&G.

About the name: When I read Harry Potter, I noticed that Hagrid has boarhound. What about slavehounds?


Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:40 am
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ANSOB wrote:
SUN (Skill of Undecided Name)
An experienced fighter can anticipate the moves of his enemy to avoid his attack while performing an attack of his own. If any enemy model in base contact with the Hero fails at least one to-hit roll, the Hero gets an additional attack. Roll to resolve immediately; this attack may take out the enemy model before he has made all of his attacks.


I won't do it that way. The other attacks schould apply since everyone rolls multiple attacks with one cup (e.g. to see, if the enemy still can parry).


I still don't understand our problems with the dogs. Why can't we just copy&paste from existing dogs?
Really fearsome models, for which a beastmaster is needed, are the Khorne blood-whatever-dogs. They even can be made really fearsome in their stats!


Wichelves (only available for them) poison is fine with the "4+ in next recophase & no other poison" of Loflar.

Will there be any poison for shooting weapons?

Trowing Knifes: maybe allow the poisons for them?

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Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:30 am
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Cat-the-Odd wrote:
I still don't understand our problems with the dogs. Why can't we just copy&paste from existing dogs?
Really fearsome models, for which a beastmaster is needed, are the Khorne blood-whatever-dogs. They even can be made really fearsome in their stats!


Because we can either have the same dogs (worse stats, none of the special rules so no reason for the BM, and less originality), or we can have entirely different creatures. Currently, we have creatures with the same name as existing ones, but that are a different unit/model/henchman type/whatever.


Cat-the-Odd wrote:
Wichelves (only available for them) poison is fine with the "4+ in next recophase & no other poison" of Loflar.


It would require a 5-10gc price hike is the problem, and it's already close enough to the Lordlings' price as it is.

Cat-the-Odd wrote:
Will there be any poison for shooting weapons?

Trowing Knifes: maybe allow the poisons for them?


Dark Venom can be applied to shooting weapons.

I'm not sure we'd want throwing knives in. Do Shadow Warriors have access to them? Which warbands, other than Skaven, have access to them? Do we really need them since we already have bows and repeater crossbows?

Cat-the-Odd wrote:
I won't do it that way. The other attacks schould apply since everyone rolls multiple attacks with one cup (e.g. to see, if the enemy still can parry).


What?
Oh, right, I see what you mean.
Well, it can go if you want, but the point of having the attack made immediately is to prevent the noble from being put OOA when "realistically" he should have killed/maimed/wounded his opponent before he could retaliate. Yeah, I see everybody's point; I'll change it.

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Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:41 pm
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To the Beastmaster: I would give him in addition to ws4 an ini of 6, because he is a corsair with 8 exp already spent (I know, he is an animal handler). The 2nd Attack would make him quite strong in the 1st game (even our noble has only one)
I like the idea of capturing enemy animals very much! We, however, should allow henchmen dogs (which ever we choose), because we maybe will face no dog at all in 1 year mordheim playing against gobbos, undead, shadowelves and so on... :roll:

The last version with the Ld roll (+1 for the beastlash) and the serious injury roll after the game is the best in my mind: we cannot capture every single filthy doggy that passes our way...

For the henchdogs themselves I'll only repeat myself saying to keep the rules as we have them already (Stats and Skill) and use the models we want to (I would like to have a reason to paint some of the lion-headed khorne dogs)
If we want an even harder monster we can also apply a rare roll for the henchdogs, but this would blow up the rules, I think.

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Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:03 pm
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I think shades should not have access to helmets, usually scouts don't wear them as it obstructs vision and hearing.

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Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:14 pm
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Okay, something that arised in convo between myself and Arq.

We agreed that we were generally unsatisfied with MoP, as it didn't make much sense. It especially didn't because it now involves money. Anyway, we found a solution to that: Skaven get Black Lotus at -2 Rarity on the trading chart. We figured the same thing could apply to Druchii, so here's what's happening.

From now on, Master of Poison goes (unless somebody has a really strong reason to keep it). Instead of that, a note will be added at the end of the list that states that we may search for DV at -2 Rarity (6 instead of 8).

Another possibility that just cropped up: Master of Poisons stays, but instead of what it currently does, it allows the Hero with it to find anything under the "drugs and poisons" heading of the equipment section at -2 Rarity on account of how he knows enough to brew poisons from/enhance the drugs' effects with more common ingredients rather than buy it ready-made.

So yeah, you pick. I kind of like DV at -2 Rarity, and I kind of like the new new MoP - do people want MoP out (despite the fact that it was there before and somewhat more powerful) and the new Executioner skill, or should we stick to something (albeit modified) that was already in the Lustria rules?

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Last edited by Ansob. on Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:28 pm
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Under the name Knows the right people..... maybe.

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Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:36 pm
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NBA - Natural Born Alchemist?

So I don't one-line - yeah, that's the idea. (Ansob.)

Damn you to the nine hells with your "one lining" (Arq.)

I can see why you would say that, given that you do a lot of it. >.> (Ansob.)

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Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:38 pm
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A neutral shade of black. wrote:
Cat-the-Odd wrote:
I still don't understand our problems with the dogs. Why can't we just copy&paste from existing dogs?

Because we can either have the same dogs (worse stats, none of the special rules so no reason for the BM, and less originality), or we can have entirely different creatures. Currently, we have creatures with the same name as existing ones, but that are a different unit/model/henchman type/whatever.

I repeat my question. Why not to use, say, O&G wolves (if we cannot stick with Chaos or Witch hunter hounds) and call them "slavehounds"?

Quote:
Cat-the-Odd wrote:
Wichelves (only available for them) poison is fine with the "4+ in next recophase & no other poison" of Loflar.


It would require a 5-10gc price hike is the problem, and it's already close enough to the Lordlings' price as it is.

Then why not to "tax" the poison? WE could have it for about 5 gc per battle and dose...

Quote:
Well, it can go if you want, but the point of having the attack made immediately is to prevent the noble from being put OOA when "realistically" he should have killed/maimed/wounded his opponent before he could retaliate.

Actually, this is an intended feature. It can happen in a real fight as well ;-)

If we decide that we can not keep the dogs (and I think that we can and should) we should IMHO think about another animal. And if we will not find it, then I see no reason for beastmaster.

Arquinsiel wrote:
shades should not have access to helmets, usually scouts don't wear them as it obstructs vision and hearing

It is also matter of which helmet to choose. But such helmet would not be similar to those worn by models of corsairs and DEW. BTW, Skaven (Eshin, stealthy, etc...) have helmets as well.

A neutral shade of black wrote:
From now on, Master of Poison goes (unless somebody has a really strong reason to keep it). Instead of that, a note will be added at the end of the list that states that we may search for DV at -2 Rarity (6 instead of 8).

Another possibility that just cropped up: Master of Poisons stays, but instead of what it currently does, it allows the Hero with it to find anything under the "drugs and poisons" heading of the equipment section at -2 Rarity on account of how he knows enough to brew poisons from/enhance the drugs' effects with more common ingredients rather than buy it ready-made.

Both are reduced versions of Streetwise academic skill.

ANSOB wrote:
Beastmastery Cue fluff; rules: if the BM OOAs an enemy animal, opponent/whoever does not roll for recovery at end of the fight (yes, this also works for stuff like the Thing in the Woods, since that's an animal I think). Instead, BM takes a Ld roll; if successful, then animal becomes part of Druchii warband if enough space left. Possible alternative: Ld match between BM and highest Ld value in enemy warband/animal's value if wild; whoever wins keeps the animal (if the animal is wild, it basically manages to escape). In both cases, if the enemy warband keeps the animal it still has to roll for serious injury. Other possibility: apply possibility one (only BM Ld test) but Druchii have to roll on serious injury to see if animal recovers.

I believe that we have already discussed something similar. In A2? And we decided against it, IIRC to save us from angry looks of Kislev player suddenly deprived of his lovely bear.


Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:54 pm
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We didn't rule against the "capture beasts" rule, we simply put it aside until later on (because it was replaced by hounds).

Making witch elves rebuy poison every game is not an option.

Slavehounds sound fine with me - any other warband have that name? I mean, if not, then that's our problem solved.

SUN got changed, by the way.

I'm also thinking shades shouldn't get access to helmets.

Streetwise: okay, so bye-bye MoP. We still get -2 Rarity on DV, and now we need to work on the Executioner skill.

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Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:16 pm
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A neutral shade of black. wrote:
Making witch elves rebuy poison every game is not an option.

Why? They don't have to buy it. Player could decide if investment in poisons for next battle is a good idea. Same like with other poisons, garlic etc. It would give WE something corsairs don't have, but it would not rise their price, because it would be just ability to buy something.

Quote:
SUN got changed, by the way.

Yes, I noticed it. It was just explanation.

Quote:
I'm also thinking shades shouldn't get access to helmets.

OK

Quote:
Streetwise: okay, so bye-bye MoP. We still get -2 Rarity on DV, and now we need to work on the Executioner skill.

But, while current MoP may not be the best, it still gives DE somewhat better access to poisons then to other warbands. Do we really want to lose it?


Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:51 am
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Loflar wrote:
But, while current MoP may not be the best, it still gives DE somewhat better access to poisons then to other warbands. Do we really want to lose it?


If we ditch MoP we still keep the -2 Rarity to DV search rolls as a racial bonus (like Skaven with Black Lotus). I'm still putting that on account of how we know DV better than most races.

Anyway, would you mind clarifying your WE poison rule (not the effect, the 5 gc thing)? It's not making sense right now.

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Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:22 am
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A neutral shade of black. wrote:
Anyway, would you mind clarifying your WE poison rule (not the effect, the 5 gc thing)? It's not making sense right now.


What about this rule for WE instead of PUN:

Maibd posion
Witch elves are experts in combat use of poison, and as such, can even prepare some simple poisons from innocuous-looking ingredients. During buying common items phase of post-battle sequence, witch elf can[1] buy those ingredients.
For every 5 gc she spends on ingredients she can make one dose of mild paralyzing posion, which can be used next battle to poison one weapon. Witch elf will not give the poison to anyone outside the Temple. Models wounded by a weapon poisoned by this poison only recover on D6 roll of 4+.

Needs rewording, restructuring and reformating, but this is the idea.

[1]: This means, that you need to have WE before you try to get the poison, i.e. your first WE will go to her first battle without poison.

ANSOB wrote:
I'm not sure we'd want throwing knives in. Do Shadow Warriors have access to them? Which warbands, other than Skaven, have access to them? Do we really need them since we already have bows and repeater crossbows?

Kislevites use them as well. I don't think that we actually need them, I see them more as a nice addition. Why not to take them? IMHO DE would not shy from using them.


Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:04 am
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Quote:
Models wounded by a weapon poisoned by this poison only recover on D6 roll of 4+.

There's your problem, you could theoretically have a model spend the entire battle down just waiting to be taken OOA by a passing piece of fodder. For 5gc that's a hell of a lot of pain.

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Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:29 pm
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Arquinsiel wrote:
Quote:
Models wounded by a weapon poisoned by this poison only recover on D6 roll of 4+.

There's your problem, you could theoretically have a model spend the entire battle down just waiting to be taken OOA by a passing piece of fodder. For 5gc that's a hell of a lot of pain.

For what price would it be acceptable? Or, alternatively, we could change the roll to 5+ or 6+. And it would probably not be more then two turns, after which the model would be either saved or dead.

I am planning to get a WE for my A35 band, so let's wait for the results ;-)


Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:17 pm
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Probably in the 20 - 30 gc range, this kind of thing is hard to price.

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Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:39 pm
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I still don't like the prospect of paying each game if you want to use the poison. It just doesn't seem right (I understood perfectly well that there was no compulsion to do so, by the way).

Arquinsiel wrote:
There's your problem, you could theoretically have a model spend the entire battle down just waiting to be taken OOA by a passing piece of fodder. For 5gc that's a hell of a lot of pain.


My version of the rule doesn't allow for this - the poison would not be paid for, but would only make it that the next recovery phase a model stunned/knocked down by a WE has to roll 4+ or not be allowed to recover. Basically, it puts the model out of the circuit for an additional one turn maximum.

That would still imply a price bump. The only reason why I didn't want to do this is that it would be too close to the BM in price, but actually having reread the LRB, I noticed the merc champ is the same as a Swordsman.

Would WE with my version of the poison sound too cheap at 45 gc?

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Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:40 pm
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Hrm.... I think it might work if there's only one potential extra turn. 45 seems okay but it might still be underpriced.

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Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:46 pm
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Arquinsiel wrote:
45 seems okay but it might still be underpriced.


Aye. My problem is that a henchman more pricey than a Hero just doesn't sound right. It can easily be done in the case of Youngbloods/Dregs/whatever, but this is an elf.

A potential solution, since it's the 5 gc difference that annoys me: BM price goes down 5 gc, WEs at 50 gc. That way, there's a clear difference between both.

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Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:25 pm
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A neutral shade of black. wrote:
My version of the rule doesn't allow for this - the poison would not be paid for, but would only make it that the next recovery phase a model stunned/knocked down by a WE has to roll 4+ or not be allowed to recover. Basically, it puts the model out of the circuit for an additional one turn maximum.

That's even better. I like it.

Quote:
Would WE with my version of the poison sound too cheap at 45 gc?

IMHO no. When I think about it, it seems that this rule is just a weaker version of +2 on injury roll. Is there any analogy which we could look at?


Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:43 pm
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