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Druchii Warband Revision - Pre-Beta Release 
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Cat-the-Odd wrote:
It is a weapon that shoots quite far and twice!


Its a bow that shoots twice at -1 to hit and is incompatbile with shooting skills. That's why.

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Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:34 am
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Just to clear it up:

LRB wrote:
RXB: 40 gc, range 24", S 3, may fire twice at -1 to hit
Crossbow: 25 gc, range 30", S 4, Move or fire
Bow: 10 gc, range 24", S 3

So RXB is like two bows, i.e. price should be higher then 20. Comparing it with Crossbow would be more difficult, but IMHO it has some advantages, so I think that its price should be in range of 25 - 35. 40 is really too much.

But I like the idea of replacing Quickshot with skill (Machinegunner?), which would eliminate the -1 to hit.


Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:55 pm
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I still think that the number of attacks (be it ranged or in cc) is very important in Mortheim. Even if the statistical wounds you deal with it is the same, it is better to use as much as possible attacks, bacause you can even wound two times! With the RXB nearly every hero (with us also hencemen) can achieve 2 shots per turn without having to spend xp on the quickshot skill (if they could).

Anyway there are these experimental armour/2nd-weapon rules going into a kind of stage we are with our Druchii. If there is any serious sign for having an rules update for mortheim, we could/should compete in the discussion as well. ANSOB did already some thinkings about the experimental rules. So if there is an Update we should have two Druchii warbands (new + exp) ready to be 'released' together with the update. (Hopefully we can manage to use only one list, with the only global rules changing)


... and try the notpron riddles! It's fun, you learn something and you are able to waste your woking time in the most effective way... ;)

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Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:14 pm
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Cat-the-Odd wrote:
So if there is an Update we should have two Druchii warbands (new + exp) ready to be 'released' together with the update.


The only thing that would change is the price of armour, and that's already been sorted out (price of the sdc in the Gold thread). :)

Anyway, a simple way of balancing the RXB would be to make it 25gc and usable with quickshot/any other skill with which you can use a crossbow. The player then has the choice between two S3 shots at a shorter range with -1 to hit or a single S4 shot at a longer range with no penalty (barring the usual range and co.). But this isn't a thread about the RXB rules. ;)

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Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:29 pm
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I think that rXb should be 20gc, you do get -1 to hit with it


Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:20 am
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After playtesting... I think that the Long-Lived rule should be removed... It puts the druchii warband at an disadvantage in long campaigns. Especially since our heroes are quite expensive. Of course we can buy new heroes but if our noble dies then we are basically stuck with 4 heroes for the whole campaign. The chance of getting a new hero under the current rules are irrelevant. After a 34-game campaign I got no new heroes so... During the later period of the campaign my Undead opponent had 3 ghoul heroes! They were quite nasty I can tell you! While my druchii had four heroes because of the death of the Highborn... It is no advantage to drop the rule, really because all other warbands get the promotion, we are just equal with the others...

Then the low cost in the RxB should be increased. Our high BS combined with the RxB two shots is worth more then 20 points. It is like 5 shades with RxB becomes mandatory. It should be kept at the price of 35 points. To encourage some up and close nastiness... Sure it is fun to unleash 16 bolts a turn, for you but not your opponent. Especially against dwarfs. You can simply back away 5 while they try and catch you with their 6 move. They will be so much pin-cushion when they finally reach you. (and dead)

So I say bump up the cost of the crossbow and ditch the Long-Lived rule... Some say we are getting a bit overpowered and the RxB should probably fix that to some fair extent...


Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:26 pm
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Loflar wrote:
Comparing it with Crossbow would be more difficult,

OK, I made it. A small statistical analysis.

Let's have a target of T3, AS 5+. Let's also have 60 crossbowmen and 60 rxb-men, all with BS 4. Let's put a pair of crossbowmen and pair of rxb-men 1" from target, next two pairs 2" for target etc., up to 30" from target. Let's assume, that in every pair, one person moved this turn, while the other not.

For crossbowmen it means, that 30 of them cannot shoot (moved), 15 will shoot at long distance (4+ to hit), 15 at short (3+ to hit). For rxb-men it means, that 12 of them cannot shoot (too far), 12 need 6+ to hit (moved, long distance, two shots), 24 need 5+ to hit (either moved or long distance, two shots), 12 need 4+ to hit (two shots), all shooting twice.

Crossbowmen hit with S4, reducing AS to 6+ and wounding on 3+. RXB-men with S3 don't reduce AS and wound on 4+.

Results:
60 crossbowmen will cause 8 + 11/18 wounds
60 rxb-men firing twice will cause 10 + 2/3 wounds
I also computed result for RXB on one-shot: 6 wounds

Which means that RXB is more dangerous weapon than crossbow and therefore shoud be more expensive. As 40 is clearly too much, I suggest 30.
(Anyone wants to make comparison with blunderbuss? ;-)

Osmiusvorn wrote:
Sure it is fun to unleash 16 bolts a turn, for you but not your opponent. Especially against dwarfs. You can simply back away 5 while they try and catch you with their 6 move. They will be so much pin-cushion when they finally reach you

I usually meet different kind of dwarves. 13 dwarves, halfcook and warlock. Most of dwarves equipped with crossbows with range 36. Heroes have Quickshot skill. Shoot at them. You will get one or two - at most. Next turn you will lose one or two. They outnumber, they win. They have longer range, so they don't need to come closer.


Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:04 pm
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Well the dwarfs I meet usually also look like that but it was just an example. It is something that could be done...

One of my friends actually tries over and over again to build a up close and personal dwarf warband. With some sucess actually but usually alot of dead stunties :twisted:


Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:19 pm
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I think that I have found a solution to RXB rarity.

Don't you find it strange, that it is so easy to find an inexperienced shade or witch elf inside the Empire? How is it possible? Let's suppose, that there is some secret base nearby. Then the base should also carry weapons, right?

So, what I suggest is:
1) Raise RXB price during warband creation to 30 gc.
2) Standard way to get RXB will stay at 40 gc rare 8
3) But, add an option to get an RXB as an equipment of a new warband member (if this member can use it) for price of 30 gc.

This allows for acceptable replacement of equipment lost with lost members, while not making it easily available if you want it for someone who did not have it before (or was robbed, etc.)


Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:26 am
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Loflar wrote:
3) But, add an option to get an RXB as an equipment of a new warband member (if this member can use it) for price of 30 gc.

This allows for acceptable replacement of equipment lost with lost members, while not making it easily available if you want it for someone who did not have it before (or was robbed, etc.)


The problem is that it breaks the rules on the lists being used at creation only. The solution is to make the RXB cheaper for us all the time (and keep the cost at 30gc), but I don't like that idea. Yours is okay, but won't work due to rules.

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Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:54 am
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A neutral shade of black. wrote:
The problem is that it breaks the rules on the lists being used at creation only.

Yes, it does. Special rules are often exceptions from standard rules. For example, dwarven "Hard to kill" rule breaks standard injury roll.


Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:29 pm
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hi there guys, not been on this site for quite some time, how is everyone?? I got a little invite from Neutral to come join the party ;)

Why not keep their price at 45gc, but lessen the effects of the poison to something like "Whilst under the effects of the 'knocked down' position a model may not recover to standing on a roll of a 4+"

or words to that effect...

That way it allows an opponent that was stunned (and under the old wording, suffering a 50% chance of remaining stunned) has an opputunity to survive slightly better.

In terms of fluff it effectively paralyses movement. So a warrior hit by a witch elf and is stunned cannot mentally think through his situation, then recovers to becoming consious of his surroundings (knocked down), then either finds he cannot move his body easily (poison takes effect) or with some effort, manages to get back up despite the toxins...

something like that anyway...

peace to y'all


-Beanz

Don't double-post; use the edit button. (Ansob.)

Edit: *ahem* I've just come back and realised that I posted in reponse to the 1st page on this topic - oops!! :oops: Looks like I have some reading to do!!

-Beanz

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Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:15 am
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As it stands, the witch elves' poison prevents recovery of a downed model for a single turn. I don't quite get your proposition, but I'll put that on account of you having not seen the three pages of posts... :lol:

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Hail to the King, baby.
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Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:22 pm
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hehe, thanks ansob, sorry about the double post, like I mentioned in the PM I sent you I've not been on these forums for over a year now.

Quote:
3) But, add an option to get an RXB as an equipment of a new warband member (if this member can use it) for price of 30 gc.

This allows for acceptable replacement of equipment lost with lost members, while not making it easily available if you want it for someone who did not have it before (or was robbed, etc.)


Nice idea, I kinda like it Loflar, but another reason for not including this 'step 3)' is that any warband could claim to have a base near to mordheim that would mean new recruits get cheaper equipment when they're bought in mid-campaign. I think the cost of 30gc at the start but then 40gc after the 1st game is fine. Using the crossbow as a comparison, it is still cheaper at the start (25gc for Xbow, 30gc for RxB) and remains at this cost throughout the campaign - people cannot complain about this price for DEs - sisters of sigmar get certain rare items cheaper at the start - holy water, holy tomes and holy relics cheaper - holy stuff is in their background and RxBs are in ours.

Anyway, my point about the Witchelf poison (id only been reading the 1st page when I posted

I'll try and explain my proposition for the witch elf poison :oops: by comparing the two:

Quote:
the poison would not be paid for, but would only make it that the next recovery phase a model stunned/knocked down by a WE has to roll 4+ or not be allowed to recover. Basically, it puts the model out of the circuit for an additional one turn maximum.

replace to:
Quote:
the poison would not be paid for, but would only make it that the next recovery phase a model knocked down by a WE has to roll 4+ or not be allowed to recover. Basically, it puts the model out of the circuit for an additional one turn maximum.

my 'background reasoning' was that, if an enemy was stunned they'd be unable to move anything - so a paralysing poison has little effect on their condition at this moment. However, when they try to stand up - the poisons' paralysing effect would mean that they find it very difficult to move the muscles that are requirement for this motion, and hence there is a chance that they'll remain on the floor. This make a little more sense? ;)

This is somewhat less powerful than the current poison rules for witch elves and would mean that their price tag remained at 45gc.

whats the opinion???


-Beanz

oh ps. Im all for having throwing weapons - I think theyre ace and very stealthy/ninja esq :twisted:

PS. what happened to using the skill that allowed 2 elves to use Strength skills - the Shadow Warriors have it. this is probably written elsewhere but I havent found it yet.

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Last edited by Dangerous Beans on Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:01 pm
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Dangerous Beans wrote:
Quote:
3) But, add an option to get an RXB as an equipment of a new warband member (if this member can use it) for price of 30 gc.

This allows for acceptable replacement of equipment lost with lost members, while not making it easily available if you want it for someone who did not have it before (or was robbed, etc.)


Nice idea, I kinda like it Loflar, but another reason for not including this 'step 3)' is that any warband could claim to have a base near to mordheim that would mean new recruits get cheaper equipment when they're bought in mid-campaign.

The problem is that any other warband (with exception of lizardmen and may be few others...) actually does have base (of sorts) near Mordheim. Druchii need to have it as well, otherwise there is no explanation for readily available member replacements.

Rarity usually describes the fact, that this thing is hard to get in a common shop. You need luck, contacts, etc. This explains rarity of blunderbuss, halfling cookbook etc. Even the rarity of RXB. However, Druchii IMHO have the contacts. They know where to get it.

Quote:
I think the cost of 30gc at the start but then 40gc after the 1st game is fine. Using the crossbow as a comparison, it is still cheaper at the start (25gc for Xbow, 30gc for RxB) and remains at this cost throughout the campaign - people cannot complain about this price for DEs - sisters of sigmar get certain rare items cheaper at the start - holy water, holy tomes and holy relics cheaper - holy stuff is in their background and RxBs are in ours.

The difference is, that sisters without their rare items are not left without firepower.

Quote:
oh ps. Im all for having throwing weapons - I think theyre ace and very stealthy/ninja esq :twisted:

Welcome to the club ;-)


Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:33 pm
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The background for us is this: the cells operating in this case are private, and essentially severed from the main fleet (who couldn't be around without being noticed). We get supplied every now and then, but nothing constant. Meaning we have no major contact with our forces, so no justifying buying cheaper stuff during the campaign. In addition to that, it goes completely against the established system (that the starting equipment lists are just that, starting equipment lists). The solution would be to say that the cost to Druchii for RXBs is always 30gc for some reason or another.

Also, we have fire power. The only models who would really use the RXBs - if you intended to go for a balanced force - are the heroes. Shades would be better off with the way cheaper bow and Quickshot as soon as they can.

And no, throwing knives are not going in. :P

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Hail to the King, baby.
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Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:57 pm
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A neutral shade of black. wrote:
Shades would be better off with the way cheaper bow and Quickshot as soon as they can.

I.e. as soon as they become heroes ;-)


Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:15 pm
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Quote:
And no, throwing knives are not going in.

:cry:

did the idea for witch elf poison make more sense Ansob :?:

-Beanz

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Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:29 am
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Yeah, it did. Except what you're proposing to do is what, nerf them and keep the price as it is? That thing at the beginning of the Alpha is a changelog. That means everything in there has already been changed. That means the WE are already 45gc for the current maibd poison. There's no discussion about this right now; it was done some time ago. That any clearer?

Anyway, I'd rather the warband got playtested before we did any more changes. We're going to end up never actually sending the thing off if we keep changing details on a whim.

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Cenyu wrote:
Hail to the King, baby.
All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.


Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:02 pm
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Well, the throwing knives idea is not "on a whim". It is result of realization, that the warband has just one ranged weapon, which is expensive and rare. OK, shades can have bows. This means that player has two options:

1) Get maximum of henchshades
2) Forget about fire support


Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:24 pm
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Yep, that's the intended idea. Shooting was never meant to be the be-all end-all of Mordheim, and we're not wood elves. Druchii are supposed to be a CC warband with elven shooting miced in. Just take six shades if you want massive fire support. And as I said, there's a precise reason that we don't get throwing knives. :)

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Cenyu wrote:
Hail to the King, baby.
All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.


Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:39 pm
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And you can even give this funny-useless skill to one hero that allows you to use all missile weapons (except of blackpowder stuff). I thik this will do for your warband fluff and everybody else who wants to have bows, xbows knifes and huntig arrows.


By the way: I did a starting warband game against a starting orc. I had only 2rxb but the sorc got the doombolt. This thing turned the game to my favour (S5 is awful against orcs, the strongest weapon I have...)!

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.|ô/ô 9..Real sportsmen hunt with arrows and fish with flies.
.~~ /|...Real gentlemen play games which require skill, not tools.
.|__/\...Extraordinary gentlemen even win with them.
.[>o<]...Welcome to the League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen


Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:29 am
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Yeah, our spells are indeed leet. Out of the six in the list, only one isn't practically always useful (I mean, Black Blade of Khaine? Doombolt? Word of Pain?).

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General Kala wrote:
Cenyu wrote:
Hail to the King, baby.
All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.


Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:40 pm
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ANSOB in another thread wrote:
As it is, I can turn the current warband roster into a .pdf as soon as I get home and get Internet access (by next week).

Just a quick question before you will do it. Do you actually plan to delete the Long-Lived rule?


Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:05 am
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Yes, as well as the Lithe rule (stupid thing - no heavy armour in the equipment list, no skill to use exotic armour, no way we can wear any armour other than light armour and SDCs - that ought to keep those people whining we get gromril for a third of the price quite :roll:). Unless you're thoroughly opposed to that? We'd agreed to rule it out on the basis of the fact that it made the roster too complicated.

As a sidenote, I can only access Internet about once every three-four days unless really urgent until next weekend. Still no DSL, stuck on a limited 56k pay-as-you-go dialup.

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General Kala wrote:
Cenyu wrote:
Hail to the King, baby.
All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.


Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:42 pm
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