Status of the SDC

[Ansob.]

I've been browsing the Mordheim forums at specialist-games.com, and from what the official rules people say, the sdc's status is a tad special.

First, it isn't stackable. An sdc counts as a "base save," i.e. you can't combine an sdc and light armour (they argue that this effectively gives you gromril armour for half the price). You could of course stack the sdc and a shield, but no sdc + light armour + shield.

Secondly, they say that it counts as a piece of "esuipment armour." This means that rather than being just equipment (wearable by all, does not prevent spellcasting), it's equipment that is wearable only by those who can wear armour (i.e. a sorceress couldn't wear it).

Since this is going to be official, we need to conform to one view. That's for the current shoddy Lustria DE list. We're reforming it, so we could reform the way the sdc works. What I'd like is for our playtesters (and anyone else who can play) to run about ten "stand alone" games with a noble with light armour (under the new armour rules found here and under the current LRB ones), sdc, sword and shield, and no skills (just create a warband that would be a "starting warband," and will only get used for a few test games).

This exercise will allow us to test the sdc's current efficiency somewhat, and the feedback will hopefully help us decide what to do: reform or conform. This is just Alpha testing, don't worry - the testing of this in campaign setting will be done when we go Beta.

(Which, might I add, is when we're sufficiently satisfied with the Alpha and have solved all our problems. I'll ask Nag to stick the Beta list in the monthly and get as many people as possible to playtest it and email me their results.)

[Loflar]

We already play with the proposed change iii (shield gives AS 5+ instead of 6+). It helps, but not much. IMHO the main reason, why armour does not pay in Mordheim is, that critical hits (which often happen) often ignore it.

[Arquinsiel]

Erm... the "new" rules are just somebody's house rules, they're in no way official. To be honest, his rules are starting to make it look like WHFRP instead of Mordheim. I'm not fond of major changes to the system when it works perfectly well as it is. Bear in mind, fluff wise these are private citizens, not professional military units. They don't have the raw finance to be able to afford more than token armour for themselves.

Why isn't the SDC stackable? There's not fluff reason for it, and as people have said, even gromril armour isn't worth much.

[Ansob.]

Why isn't the SDC stackable? There's not fluff reason for it, and as people have said, even gromril armour isn't worth much.

For the same reason that an inch of steel doesn't protect you from a dagger with the current armour rules, i.e. bullshit?

The new armour rules aren't somebody's house rules right now; they're something being envisaged for the next versions of the LRB. Yes, it's a fundamental change, but it at least makes all the "don't get armour, it sucks" comments we kept having.

It also allows people to use the Mordheim models that have armour on them. And it allows me to use the Reiklander captain on foot that I just love so much. >.>

(As well as actually make my warband theme work, i.e. military unit.)

[Arquinsiel]

For the same reason that an inch of steel doesn't protect you from a dagger with the current armour rules, i.e. bullshit?

Erm..... what? A dagger on a model with light armour usually ends up giving that model a 5+ save.

Yes, which isn't much in my humble opinion, but anyway. (Ansob.)

That's plenty, someon's gotten a pointy thing and stuck it in your un-armoured eye and you get a 6+ save againt it. I know I'd be happy with that in real life. (Arq.)

[Loflar]

Erm..... what? A dagger on a model with light armour usually ends up giving that model a 5+ save.

The problem is, that in about 1/3 of cases (assuming attacker strikes on 4+) the dagger will bypass the AS (criticals) and S4 attackers, who don't have to care about light armour, do exist.

[Arquinsiel]

S4 with a dagger still gives you an unmodified save. 1/3 of hits are critical hits it seems but still, it's not necessary to use the piercing weapon chart for a dagger. I mean, how often have you skewared someone with a dagger in mordheim?

[Ansob.]

...right.

So, squabbles aside, might we focus on this thread's point, i.e. should SDCs be stackable?

I vote yes.

[Arquinsiel]

Same here.

[Pale warrior]

I vote yes, too. It makes logical sense that another layer of protection (in this case scales) would offer a better save.

[Ansob.]

Right, issue solved, thread destickied, the sdc is stackable. Alpha text amended to make it clear.

[Cat-the-odd]

But the SDC schould still count as an equipment-armour, so that the Sorc cannot use it! We have to get the warrior wizard skill for her to wear Armour as any other warband, too!

[Ansob.]

But the SDC schould still count as an equipment-armour, so that the Sorc cannot use it! We have to get the warrior wizard skill for her to wear Armour as any other warband, too!

Does being a spellcaster prevent you from wearing clothes?
I don't see why the sdc should be equipment that only characters who can wear armour can wear. I mean, how often are you going to spend 30 gc on a light armour with an extra save point against missile weapons for your spellcaster, especially given the price of everything else in the warband (you saw the All My Gold thread)?

[Loflar]

This can be argued. If SDC gives AS, yet does not count as armour, then it will be the only think which works like this. Even toughened leathers' description says that it work exactly like LA, which IMHO means that spellcasters cannot take it.

When I think about it, I would rather follow a simple rule:
If it gives AS, then it is armour.

Now for some squabble ;-)

I mean, how often have you skewared someone with a dagger in mordheim?

No, I don't do such things ;-) However, I remember my swordsman charging Kislevite Jesaul, failing to hit, failing to parry (with sword & buckler) his dagger, and being sliced...

About stackability: If it means ability to combine SDC with other pieces of armour, then I am for it. However, after reading ANSOB's analysis in the monetary thread, I got an idea which you will not like ;-)

Should not SDC have rule that it cannot be used in combination with shield?

Instead of comparing maximum AS available, I would compare maximum AS with no M penalty available. This gives following results (with the Lithe rule):

Old rules
======
Non-elf: HA: AS 5+, 50 gc, 2 attacks
Non-elf: Gromril: AS 4+, 150 gc, 2 attacks
Anyone: LA + shield: 5+/6+, 25 gc, 1 attack (one lost because of shield in the other hand)
Elf: LA + SDC: 6+/5+, 55gc, 2 attacks
Elf: LA + SDC + shield: 4+, 60 GC, 1 attack

New rules
=======
Non-elf: HA: 5+, 20 gc, 2 attacks
Non-elf: Gromril: AS 4+, 100 gc, 2 attacks
Anyone: LA + shield: 5+/6+, 15 gc, 1 attack
Elf: LA + SDC: 6+/5+, 45 gc, 2 attacks
Elf: LA + SDC + shield: 4+, 50 gc, 1 attack

With SDC + shield, we get effectively gromril AS, which costs 1 attack but we save 90 gc with old and 50 gc with new rules. In both cases it is enough money to get a new henchman or two which is IMHO enough compensation for one lost attack. To me, this looks too strong.

[Ansob.]

Should not SDC have rule that it cannot be used in combination with shield?

You're right; I don't like it.

There's no reason whatsoever to do that. Why would wearing a cloak wrapped around your body prevent you from holding a shield, but not from holding a sword?

I don't mind if SDC becomes equipment-armour and the sorceress can't wear it (tough; I wasn't counting on getting her light armour unless she gets warrior-mage, so I guess it'll just be light armour and an sdc), but it's kind of stupid - I mean, this allows us to protect the weakest (statswise) member of our warband just a little bit and for rather a lot of gold (plus there's no reasoning whatsoever behind saying that characters who can't wear armour can't wear an sdc; it's a damn cloak, not some pavise or another).

Anyway, it looks like Lithe is going to go in, so stackable sdc at 30-40 gc is justified. Actually, 35 gc should probably be the right price given what disadvantages Lithe gives us, but it can't be divided by two, which is why I'd rather stick to 30 or 40 gc. Anyway, I figure the sdc will stay at 35 gc (that's 60 total for a better-against-shooting save and no movement penalty than the 55 gc human equivalent, but we can't wear more armour).

I'll continue this short spell of extra maths in All My Gold.

[Loflar]

Why would wearing a cloak wrapped around your body prevent you from holding a shield, but not from holding a sword?

Because it is large, heavy, and can catch edges of your shield, which is held close to the body, unlike sword.

[Ansob.]

Because it is large, heavy, and can catch edges of your shield, which is held close to the body, unlike sword.

Why would it be heavy? These are just scales. They may be extremely resilient because of what they're made of, or because they're imbued with some form of magic, for all we know. And the shield, being held close to the body and requiring very little movement (you move your body to block attacks with the shield, not the shield itself) has a lot less chances of being impeded by the cloak. I also don't think you realise how the sdc is supposed to be worn: it's like the corsair champion with his sdc entirely wrapped around him. If you don't wear it like that, your back is the only thing protected; not very useful for a piece of life-saving armour.

[Loflar]

Scales of sea dragon, IIRC. I suppose, that the scales are still fixed on the original hide, which should be pretty thick. If they were sewn to silk, the cloak would not stay long in one piece. Especially in fight.

Shield: OK, it depends somewhat on a shield used. But in a fight, both body and shield move. It applies even for the early medieval almond-like shield (DEW shields somewhat resemble it - they are quite big). It usually covers your left side, but can be moved to right side or up to protect head. Or, in case of smaller shields (e.g. 14th century, Bretonnia, Empire), down to protect legs. I have some experience with this smaller shield, and I know, that while basic position is by the left side of the body (or above head), once the fight begins, the shield moves.

How to wear SDC: OK, if the cloak is tightly wrapped around the body, that the shield might be over it. But I always wondered, how does that champion walk...

[Ansob.]

But I always wondered, how does that champion walk...

Well, women in general seem to do okay... >.>

[Loflar]

But he looks so manly... Anyway, this does not change anything on fact, that LA+SDC+shield is AS of gromril for half the price.

[Ansob.]

But he looks so manly... Anyway, this does not change anything on fact, that LA+SDC+shield is AS of gromril for half the price.

Well, PTing is where it gets decided I suppose. We don't have enough material to continue this. Don't make me lock the thread.

[Geophrim]

I think we have to keep in mind that we want to give few reasons for other people to complain our list is "broken" in order for the list to be made official. I've always had gripes about Chaos sorcerers and chaos armor, so as much as I'd love to have our sorceresses armored in SDC, I vote against it (unless they take warrior wizard skill).

SDC gives an armor bonus, so it should either be stackable armor, or equipment-armor. Preferably stackable armor. I don't see why it wouldn't stack. Doesn't make logical sense. Just one extra vote to increase the sample size.

[Arquinsiel]

No, I don't do such things ;-) However, I remember my swordsman charging Kislevite Jesaul, failing to hit, failing to parry (with sword & buckler) his dagger, and being sliced...

Thing is, the daggers technically use the same critical chart as spears and the following can apparently happen:

The
victim is knocked backwards D6" and the
attacker follows, staying in base contact ......
If the target collides with
another model, the other model is hit once
at S3.

Can you see this being possible with a dagger? I certainly can't.

[EDIT] Oh yeah, it's also only one in 36 attacks that results in a critical hit so that's not a bad chance of getting a save at all.

[Ansob.]

SDC gives an armor bonus, so it should either be stackable armor, or equipment-armor. Preferably stackable armor. I don't see why it wouldn't stack. Doesn't make logical sense. Just one extra vote to increase the sample size.

The logic behind sdc being armour is dodgy at best - would you consider heavy clothing armour? By most standards it counts as the equivalent of "light armour," though.

Anyone else think that the sdc should be stackable armour armour (as opposed to equipmen-armour)? I don't really have much against that except that it doesn't seem to make much sense fluff-wise (though I suppose we could claim that the sdc is heavy).

[Geophrim]

Yeah, I suspect it actually would be a VERY heavy cloak, which is why I thought of it as armor. Looking at the models, it looks like our corsairs are wearing alligator skins on their backs. The cloaks on the models even have CLAWS and TEETH still attached! I really think it's like wearing a really heavy leather "rug" on your back, so I suspect casting spells in such would be difficult at best--thus implying armor in my view. Just my 10 cents for game balance.