The Mordheim Overhaul - Let Us Begin!!!

Discuss and participate in the development of the Mordheim Druchii warband here.

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Kitrik
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The Mordheim Overhaul - Let Us Begin!!!

Post by Kitrik »

So I emailed Jervis Johnson, Head Fanatic of Mordheim, with the following:

Dear Jervis Johnson,
My name is Joel Stewart and I am the webmaster of Druchii.net - the
home of the Dark Elf Online Community. I am a huge Mordheim fan, more
so than Warhammer actually, and I am a little disappointed that the
Dark Elves (and Sharow Warriors) did not make the cut with the latest
version of the rules. Granted they can still be used as 'unofficial'
but that means that they can't be played with in tournaments. It was
mentioned that the elves would be redone and released in the future
and I am curious if Druchii.net can help at all in this process. As a
community we were instrumental in organizing the revision for the
Warhammer Dark Elf list and I believe that we can be of great value
for playtesting new 'versions' of Elves for Mordheim.

Although I cannot guarantee the sheer number of playtesters for this
possible revision as we had for the Warhammer revision (popularity -
you understand), I can guarantee that Druchii.net would take it upon
itself to see that a fair, balanced warband list would be evolved.

Please let me know if there is anything that Druchii.net could do to
assist in the development of the Dark Elves!

Sincerely,
Joel Stewart
Kitrik :: Webmaster of Druchii.net


He replied with :

Dear Kitrik,

Thanks for the email. Unfortunately I will have to keep this reply short, as
I'm swamped with stuff at the moment. In a nutshell, if you can come up with
a Dark Elf warband that works well for Mordheim, and which uses the
*Warhammer* miniatures range to represent the members of the Warband, then
I'll be happy to consider making it an official addition to the game.
Unfortunately I won't be able to make any new miniatures for the warband -
no, not even one! - so if the warband is going to work as an official
addition to the game it needs to draw on the currently available Dark Elf
range (and preferably without drawing on any of the old 'back catalogue'
range of DE miniatures for previous editions of the DE army list).

Hope that helps. Sorry that the reply has to be so brief!

Best regards,

Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic


So now we have a go-ahead on a full-fledged Dark Elf revision for Mordheim. We need new fluff, and new rules, while keeping everything within the current model-range.

Shall we elect leaders? Who wants to take charge of this?

For the record - I don't want to take charge of this - I have too many other things on my plate right now to dedicate more time to this. However I will definitely playtest my arse off for it!!!

Kitrik
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Well done Kitrik!!!

Post by Geophrim »

Kitrik very, VERY well done! This is great news! Although as a novice to Mordheim you don't want me organizing this forum, I am very willing to help with any play testing. I have a few ideas to start with though, since I just finished reading through the whole Mordheim rule book:

1. Since the community is evenly split between COP and TOK armies, why not do something similar to the Middenheim/Reikland split. So our 3 henchmen choices could be: (A) Witchelves/Devoted (WE's get frenzy, Devoted get something similar to Flagellent's Fanatical)--> same stats and value as corsair, but cannot use SDC)
(B) Corsairs as is (since you can already equip them as DE warriors if you really wish)
(C) Beasthounds as is (our expendible part of the list)

2. Heroes: If HE heroes can all use RxB, we should as well. Afterall, in the Lord Yreul fluff in our armybook, we see a CO mounted noble gun down a slave with an RxB. So, Fellblades should lose the Melee specialist rule, and cost 5pts more. That way, you could equip them as Execs, Witchelf heroes, BG, or a Lordlings for character.

3. I don't mind the inability to take blackpowder (since I agree it's pretty fluffy), but I don't think we should receive no corresponding benefit to offset the loss (since BP weapons ARE really powerful, especially with all the skill sets). I propose in return we get a reduced cost for poison. All poison types would only cost 1/2 the normal price.

Anyway, these are just some ideas I threw out. Let's hear what ideas everyone else has! Thanks again Kitrik!
Geophrim Auvryndar, Dark Warden to the Temple of Khaine in Ghrond, Captain of the "Returners". "BLOOD FOR KHAINE'S CUP!!!"
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Post by Mr_somebody »

I would love to help in some way but I am busy right now, so I will respond with more details later.
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Post by Vorchild »

I think that we shoudl stay in theme with the current warband as much as possible, and any variants should be thought of thinking of a raider themed army, where corsairs feature most prominantly as do units like shades.
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Post by Anaryin »

I'm willing to help in whatever I can. As for what we should or should not do, I believe we should keep a raider theme. Currently there are 2 DE Mordheim lists: WE cult and DE list. I say we only review one of them, the true DE. And we should keep, as I said and Vorch also, the raider theme. In order to do this we need to update the units we already have. I believe we don't need to get new units or new stuff...
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Post by Draenor »

I agree with Anaryin, the list should be an update or "revision" to the current list.

My Opinion:
Looking at the current DE list, it seems as though the DE have more "disadvantage" special rules than they have "advantageous" special rules. Thats fine, but I think the DE will need to be given a strength in some area to be able to justify this. This amplified by a high equipment cost and low equipment choice range makes list selections obvious and flat.

* What about allowing shades to infiltrate?
* What about the cold-one hounds becoming just cold-ones?
* Should our Highborn have the option to be mounted on a cold-one?
* What about Beastmasters being able to choose between a (small) variety of beasts?
* Would some sort of ambush rule/skill be appropriate (they are raiders after all)?

I don't have the mordhiem experience to be delagated the task, but I would love to help play test the list/s. I'm apart of a gaming group who are into mordhiem in a big way....
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Post by Anaryin »

* What about allowing shades to infiltrate ?
* What about the cold-one hounds becoming just cold-ones?
* Should our Highborn have the option to be mounted on a cold-one?
* What about Beastmasters being able to choose between a (small) variety of beasts?
* Would some sort of ambush rule/skill be appropriate (they are raiders after all)?


1 - What do you mean by Infiltrate? (I play Mordheim but I don't know all the rules.. is it something like scout?) If so, I think not. Mordheim is a city, not an open field where shades can easily scout. Also, their "natural terrain" is the field, not a city. I think they should have more option than that of hiding, probably even changing their name to Temple Adepts or something.

2- Yeah, just a name change :D

3- I don't think so. The Cold one must be expensive though, if we go for it. But I don't think so. Nor I think that making the Cold Ones more "available" to a druchii warband would be nice. I believe they are rare and expensive and the way they are now, is the best way to reflect it.

4- Hmm.. What beasts then? I think that they could use some other beasts and probably have an effect on beasts, probably cause fear on animals. Mostly like the rules for Rakarth in WFB.

5- As for raiders, I have a couple of ideas. But I'll only put them through once we really really get into this ;)

As Draenor, I don't have the experience needed to be an "insider" of the game. However, I'm used to make rules and to adapt new situations and fluff to model rules. It's my job here ;) So, all in all, count me in for whatever you want. I cna also playtest the rules once per week.

Shall we go with this?
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Post by Geophrim »

Anaryin do you have a link to that WE cult list? It would be interesting to see what kind of ideas where generated from that too...
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Post by Draenor »

1) Infiltrate is the same as scouting, the chamelion (spelling?) skink "hired sword" has that ability (see: Lustria part3).

Good point about the shades... I suppose it doesn't really suit them as much, but I was just trying to come up with ideas to justiy their points cost. At this stage they seemed overpriced (to me anyway) for what they're worth.

I'm not too sure about changing their name though, "Shades" works for me.

2) That was easy... :D

3) What about Dark Steeds? The rules for mounts are pretty good, and I as far as I know, quite a few war bands can take mounts. I'm not saying that we should therefore get mounts but it could be an option.

Since we are going for a "raider" feel, having a focus upon speed could be a defining characteristic for the list.

4) I'm not sure what beasts... I haven't really looked into the bestiary of Mordhiem... Anyway, the beastmaster (with a beastwhip) already causes fear in animals.

5) I've got a few suggestions as well... What happens now, will this be discussed in this topic or in anoher? or another forum? :?:

Maybe it would be a good idea to get feedback from veteran players as well...

btw: what is the 7th Convent?
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Post by Orteo »

Rather than coming up with special rules first, I think it is a good idea to fully develop the fluff. Making the fluff fit the rules is a very bad idea. Also, keep in mind Mordheim is set something like 500 years before the present date in the WH world. Meaning the CoS isn't near as large and almost entirely hidden.

The raider theme has promise, but it also has some major issues that need to be addressed. The main one being why is a Druchii raiding party in Mordheim? Not only is it landlocked, it is not an easy place to raid. Why search for slaves in the most dangerous city in the world where everyone goes fully armed and ready for battle at all times? A nice defenseless coastal village is much more appealing raiding site.

The only reason for the druchii to be in Mordheim is the same reason everyone else is there: wyrdstone. So why do they want wyrdstone? Is it the Sorceress Convent that wants it? Individual noble families? Malekith himself? Or maybe Morathi who wants to use it to strengthen the Cult of Slaanesh.

If it is that valuable, why doesn't a highborn march an entire army there to sieze the city? Most likely it is something akin to the skaven, where only a few know of the importance of Mordheim and the missions are clandistine. That would rule out Malekith, but would make a lot of sense for Morathi.

Once we figure out who is funding the expeditions to Mordheim we have to decide exactly what they want the Wyrdstone for. Is Morathi using it to increase her deamon summoning capablilities? The Convent crafting potent magical artifacts? Nobles using it to fuel their fleets to previously unheard of speeds?

Once we decide all this, we can start to write more specific fluff. Only then should we really start to look at the game mechanics. We have a long time, so lets take it slow and do it right.

For my actual involvement with the project, I will contribute any ideas I have for both the fluff and rules, and may write some fluff if something strikes me. Unfortunately, I have had very little playtime with Mordheim (only a coulple of hours really) and probably won't be able to playtest.

The reply from Jervis seems really promising. Since Mordheim's community is so much smaller than WHFB we have a real chance to make a difference. Not just a couple of things GW decides to take like the DE revision, but them using the majority of our ideas. Now who wants to be in charge?

@Draenor The 7th Convent is the iniative here that makes the rules for the special characters and such that appear in the monthly.
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Post by Mime »

I agree with Orteo on the point of leaving spiecal rules to last, remember we have a clean slate here, the cost of figures will be to our choosing.

As for fluff, first we'll need to work out why we're hear. Should we start a new thread for ideas, then collectivally choose? Most democratic, but after certain election results my faith in democracy is a little tainted.

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Post by Anaryin »

Oh my.. Then I wonder why I can't find members... ;)

btw: what is the 7th Convent?[/url]

[url=http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=22049]7th Convent Initiative Thread


I really hope this changes when we have our ini page :)

--------

As for the rules, yeah, it's not the best to discuss this in a single thread.. or at least, without everybody knowing that and participating. So, how is this going to be made?

1) A Forum with a couple of threads?

2) A Closed Forum with a couple of threads?

3) Here and in this thread?
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Post by Anaryin »

I only read Orteo reply now. Well, I would like to be in the group and if I'm the only one that really wants to be within it, I can lead the team. Not that I have THAT experience in leading groups (the Convent is a very small group) but at least I can give it a try. I have plenty of time until december/january to playtest and help with the rules. However, in those two months I'll come here like.. once per day and won't play a single time - Universitary Exams

So, to conclude, we need a group. We need people to write fluff, others to work out the game mechanics and a third group just to playtest. I find it essential to have 3 distinct groups and not only one that does all the work. The reason is that this way, if something happens to one person it will only affect ONE part of the development.

Opinions everybody?

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Post by Orteo »

Given that the Mordheim forum isn't that busy, I would recommend each aspect of the revision (and sub-aspect if necessary) be given its own thread in the Mordheim forum with the heading "Mordheim Revision:<subject>"

There is no reason to make them closed, since there are so few people that seem to be interested in Mordheim. Besides, we are basically brainstorming at this point, so the more ideas the merrier. We can always change the format latter if it becomes necessary.

I've gone ahead and followed my own advice and made such a thread.
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Post by Draenor »

Sounds like a plan Anaryin...

I don't think anyone is suggesting any special rules yet and I imagine that the fluff and rules will have to be created at the same time. Having lists with super-cool fluff but poor "playability" is just as bad as having a list that are awesome to play with but seem random, shallow and 1-dimensional.

I wouldn't mind being apart of a playtesting team or the mechanics team. I don't have a huge depth of experience with Mordhiem, but can play games fairly regularly (at least until Feb next year).
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Post by Anaryin »

Ok, I think Kitrik doesn't mind if we do it this way :)
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Post by Draenor »

@ Anaryin
So what happens now, are you going to put foward a structure to work off or do should we brainstorm ideas before hand?
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Post by Thee forsaken one »

I think the DE warband only need revised to bring it in line with the newer DE models, rules etc.
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Post by Anaryin »

Orteo has already put a thread for the fluff. Let us discuss that part first. However, keep your ideas for the mechanics alive and in a Word Document. When they are needed, you only have to copy.
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Post by Mielkith »

What?? I go to sleep for a few hours and I find all this when I wake up? Good lord.
I will happily assist in anyway I can.
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Post by Ansob. »

Okay, a couple ideas/reactions (this'll probably be out of synch, as I haven't the time to read any more than the half of the topic I just read).

I think the fellblade should really disappear. Instead, as it's an HB commanding the gang, replace with a Noble: it sticks with our army list, and gives you a reason to allow FBs to take RxBs (they're no longer FBs). We can't have a change in fluff concerning the FBs, so unless they disappear and reappear as something different, you can't change that "no ranged" rule.
Cold one hounds should not have a change in names. The cold one is a mount, and the hound is an interesting fluffy bit.
The DE already have horses - the "elven steed" entry in the mounted rules is both for DE and HE. We even get two mounts, that elven steed and ye old unreliable cold one.
Why are the corsairs BS4, and the shades BS3? No, I propose it be inversed, and costs be equalised (both at 30 or both at 35, more likely to be 35). That way, the corsair becomes a melee specialist and the shade a shooter (BS4 WS3/BS3 WS4).
I believe I've heard people complain that the BM's Ld value is too low, or something. Nothing precise on my behalf here, perhaps there should be a slight change in rules - i.e., allow the hounds to use the BM's modified Ld when the BM is within range of the leader. Making the BM Ld9 does not make sense (though it would be better for us, it isn't fluffy - contesting command, ASFASO).
A personal opinion: how about an assassin as hero? Just a thought, kind of pointless since the DE assassin is already a Sword. No, wait, scrap that. Raiding party theme, makes no sense.
Last point, I think: concerning the black powder/poison at half cost thingy, I agree. Fluffy and good, rulewise.
Oh, another thing - let's make these official in the Mordheim setting! I want to play them, and not have to bother setting it in a Lustrian setting. :)

As for tasks, well, I'm a T7C member and a CoP member. Which means I'm offering my services as both rulemaker and fluff-man if tasks eventually end up being split between people.

And to Kitrik - w00t! All hail Kitrik! :)

Edit: posted in the fluff thread:
Thinking on the money issue in Mordheim, two possible sources of income: case A (Ark): DE refuse to handle human money, it's crude, blah blah, Ark gives them funds (see Sisters of Sigmar); case B (hired): actually use money, we're Druchii after all, money's money...
And captured warband members:
I propose that we get both skaven and possessed ways of disposal (in addition to ransoming): either sold to the captain of the infiltrator for Xd6 gc (i.e. skaven), or sacrificed to Khaine for 1XP (i.e. possessed).


By the way, I propose we make this thread the rules one when we're done with fluff, to prevent cluttering of the forum.
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Post by Arquinsiel »

Have we decided yet on who is to be the chairperson of this effort? I have a few fluff and mechanics ideas that might be interesting but I think it would be best if we co-ordinated things somewhat.
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Post by Mime »

Looks like Anaryin has said he wouldn't mind leading.

I'll be happy to help out in any way I can, if you want to PM me on anything feel free to do so.

I think we should start with a very rough layout of the warband as a whole, i.e. rough fluff idea, warband feel (small elite being the most likely), ideas for skills being some of the things I believe we'll need to sort out.

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Post by Jhaelrnya »

Whoah, Im gone for a few days...

I am more than willing to help playtest this, and to give my 2 cents. No go on leadership, as I have the WoC forum almost to myself at the moment, plus school...but certainly willing to pitch in as much as I can.

Suggestions: Get the basic idea down first. What type fo warband? Keep it as close to the old one as possible, and fix only what needs fixing. Ie Shades.
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Post by Arquinsiel »

Fair enough. Count me in anyway. Fluff and rules most likely since I have little playing time these days.
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