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some negative feedback on Beta version Druchii Warband... 
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The Guiding Eye
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Location: Sat drinking 'soul stealer' cocktails in the city of Vilebrier with Morathi...
Hiya guys, just a brief post really - I guess I could maybe go into a lot of depth but I don't think thats really needed in this initial post.

Basically I've been having a couple of games using the druchii.net version of the dark elf warband to test it out and compare it to the 'official' gamesworkshop list - one of which I will be using in an upcoming campaign (which will now start next week).

Essentially gamers have found that the warband I'd decided to take - based on the druchii.net version was 'broken' for a few reasons:

1) the potential for uber cheese gaming was open due to the extremely cheap cost of the Repeater Crossbows being 20gc - even though it only applies to the starting warband and not once in a campaign...

2) people were startled and confused by the concept that sea dragon cloaks were a) 'very VERY cheap' for what they do. and b) they stack with other forms of armour. Of course, I've tried to point out that this is a standard function of the sea dragon cloak and that the cost again is only used for starting warbands, but nobody seemed to see my point :(

3) the last point made was a rather pointless one (IMHO anyway!) about the starting statline for elven henchmen and heroes across the elven warbands. What he was trying to say was that even for 35gc the statline of an elf was far far FAR superior to that of a human for a pretty small price difference. He basically pointed out that the difference of 10gc between the two races didnt accomodate the +1 LD, +2 I, +1 WS/BS and +1 M. Even though, in both the druchii.net and the GW version of the dark elf warband the elven statline has remained similar (although notably lowered in the druchii.net version). This guy is now attempting to rewrite the dark elf list based on his own ideas/version whereby the basic statline of a dark elf will be:

M: 5
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 3
T: 3
W: 1
I: 4
A: 1
Ld: 8

for 30gc.

Basically a skaven who has a very decent leadership... :roll:

Now I personally have tried to defend against all of these points - people are criticising our list because they are scared by the potential of our warband being able to field a VAST amout of firepower potential - coupled with extremely good/cheap melee warriors.

The point that got the most flak was the cheapness of our repeater crossbows in starting warbands - 20gc sadly seemed ludicrous to many people and there were a lot of complaints/arguments against their use/potential for abuse in our warbands (noted/argued mostly by Skaven players - whom I attempted to retaliate against by noting the cost of a sling offers NEARLY the same ability for being 18gc cheaper).

I feel that I'm a one man force against a tide of opposition who are really seeing rules abuse instead of sense and I could perhaps do with a little more constructive reasoning to make them realise that the druchii.net list IS'NT unbalanced and that in fact the GW is!

Anyway, I hope someone reads this soon/in time as the campaign begins very soon and time is against me to argue the idea of me using the druchii.net version rather than the frankly appalling GW version :(

Many thanks in advance

- a rather melancholic Beanz :(

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Death of a Thousand Cuts armylist + batreps TLOEDG (The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen)


Sun May 06, 2007 11:38 pm
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Warband Noble
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Now, that is surprising for me, because their points are actually points I see as weaknesses....

Quote:
1) the potential for uber cheese gaming was open due to the extremely cheap cost of the Repeater Crossbows being 20gc - even though it only applies to the starting warband and not once in a campaign...

So, let's say that you purchase 5 of them for 100 gc. Then you have Noble, two lordlings, beastmaster and sorceress for 250 gc, together 350 gc. Two shades for 70, together 420 gc. Axe for everyone - 35 gc., together 455 gc. One dog for 25 gc, and possibly one more RXB for the rest of money. You have a warband of 8 members, with possibility of 12 shots and one spell per turn.

Now, let's look at, say, Middenheimers. Captain, two champions and two youngbloods cost 160 gc. 7 Marksmen cost 175 gc. , together 335 gc. Bow for everyone except youngbloods is 100 gc, together 435 gc. Swordsman with sword - 45 gc, together 480 gc. Maces for heroes - 15 gc. Together 495 gc. 13 members, 10 shots, one rerollable CC attack and six S4 attacks. These Middenheimers are slightly weaker in shooting, but will beat the elves in CC.

I don't have the computation with me now, But it can be shown that if you compare price with ability to cause damage, RXB is actually one of worst weapons available.

Quote:
2) people were startled and confused by the concept that sea dragon cloaks were a) 'very VERY cheap' for what they do. and b) they stack with other forms of armour. Of course, I've tried to point out that this is a standard function of the sea dragon cloak and that the cost again is only used for starting warbands, but nobody seemed to see my point

Price of SDC is between prices of HA and LA. Since it works as LA in CC and as HA against shooting, I think that this part is OK.

Yes, it stacks. It is special equipment of DE, and it is very rare. Don't they complain against weeping blades of sigmarite hammers?

Further, it costs 35 gc or more, i.e. at least as much as a new henchman. So, before you max your warband, you will probably not buy it. And there are more urgent things to buy even afterwards, like, say new RXB for 40 gc, as you lose one almost each time one of your models die (which will happen).

OK, you can get AS 3+. This AS will come into question when your opponent rolls to-wound hit, which will generally happen on 4+ or 3+. 1/3 of 1/4 of such hits will be 6, i.e. criticals, which will ignore the AS anyway...

Quote:
3) the last point made was a rather pointless one (IMHO anyway!) about the starting statline for elven henchmen and heroes across the elven warbands. What he was trying to say was that even for 35gc the statline of an elf was far far FAR superior to that of a human for a pretty small price difference. He basically pointed out that the difference of 10gc between the two races didnt accomodate the +1 LD, +2 I, +1 WS/BS and +1 M.

However, in Mordheim, Ld is not that much used - attacking a fear causing enemy is generally not that good idea for an elf anyway. +2I is good, especially with some skills and radar. But does not help you in fight or shooting. +1BS is good, but only Lordlings have it. +1WS means, that your enemy will still hit on 4+. +1M is not as good as in Warhammer, because in Mordheim you cannot flee a charge. But it helps, a bit.

But. Human warbands have more members (and numbers count more then stats), and always have some cheap fodder.
For DE, the cheapest model is dog, which has impressive stats, before you find that:
- you must be careful not to charge out of reach of beastmaster
- if he does not hit enemy, he will face two attacks back..
- ... and some more in next turn, as enemy will countercharge

Human fodder henchman (warrior with club) will cost you 28 gc, will have two attacks hitting on 4+ and wounding on 4+ (against T3) which gives roughly 37% to wound T3 opponent. With ability to gain experience and possibility of a critical hit which takes a multiwound opponent OOA.

Slavehound will hit on 3+ or 4+ and wound on 3+ (against T3) which gives roughly 33% - 44%. No experience.

You can alternatively get corsair with axe for 40 gc, who will hit on 3+ or 4+ and wound on 4+ which gives 37% - 44%, i.e. is slightly better then humen warrior, but dies as easily.

The most usual income after battle is 60 - 65 gc, which allows you to replace one lost elf or buy a new one if you had no losses. And when you lose a model with RXB, that means that in nex battle, you will not have the RXB back. So your numbers grow very slowly, especially if you use the long-lived rule, which can make you go through the campaign with five heroes (or four if your Noble dies). Meanwhile, your shooting might slowly disappear.


Mon May 07, 2007 7:03 am
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The Guiding Eye
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Thanks Loflar - thats exactly what I was looking for to contradict their claims - I wrote a post on our gaming groups forum noting the fact that slings are a far more hideous weapon considering their extremely cheap cost and that they can be brutally utilised by one of mordheims most dangerous and nasty warbands: the Skaven.

Is it alright to link them to your arguments here on druchii.net? It could prove to be very useful in the debate we're having: which in many ways I find a shame as gaming shouldnt really be about what warbands can be cheese gamed and abused but rather about having a laugh with mates albeit perhaps in a slightly competitive manner ;)

anyway cheers again dude - there is light at the end of the tunnel! :D

- Beanz

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The Black Treasures of Naggaroth
The Cult of the Vile Rose History
Death of a Thousand Cuts armylist + batreps TLOEDG (The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen)


Mon May 07, 2007 11:50 am
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Trainee Warrior
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Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:31 pm
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I am the warband playing just now. Loflar completely answered your question and I'll try to point to some facts he omitted. I am used to play human mercenaries, but I tried many warbands. From the first I considered the Druchii warand extremly weak or at least fragile. This may partially be because I am not used to playing expensive warbands, but I suppose I am able to see the weakness. I use the version with frail but fey. I think that the long lived rule makes the warband nearly unplayable.
There are several main weaknesses. First is the limited number of members. There are several other warbands with that maximum but they have some advantages the druchii have not. At least all have fodder level warriors.
The high cost is another Druchii weakness. I would gladly change higher stats higher cost Corsairs for regular 25 points human hechmen. We have only the slavehounds, which are extremely weak for their cost. Their stupidity makes them dependent on the bestmaster and so you at once need to save your beastmaster to quell stupidity and in the same moment you nead to have your beasmaste near the main battle to quell stupidity. And the stupidity rule makes the beastmaster target number one. I know this from playing Kislev where the bear depends on bear tamer, but here with lower Ld of slavehounds the importance is even bigger. And moreover there is the takedown rule which is more weakness than advantage. And last but not least the rule which says the dogs leave when beastmaster dies. That means that one death leads to lost of perhaps four models.
Frenzy for witch elves is also not a big advantage. Frenzying model can easily be tricked and as Druchii have nearly always less models than their enemies, this leads to short death.
So back to the high cost, it is much harder to fill in the loses and loses will inevitably come.

So no according to my experience, Druchii may have some impakt but really are not very strong.

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Mon May 07, 2007 1:06 pm
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Warband Noble
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Dangerous Beans wrote:

Is it alright to link them to your arguments here on druchii.net? It could prove to be very useful in the debate we're having:


Of course.

Quote:
which in many ways I find a shame as gaming shouldnt really be about what warbands can be cheese gamed and abused but rather about having a laugh with mates albeit perhaps in a slightly competitive manner ;)

You are right, but when the game is competitive, not everyone can bear it ;-)

Malman wrote:
Frenzy for witch elves is also not a big advantage. Frenzying model can easily be tricked

Yes. But you can choose corsairs instead. So using WE is IMHO just matter of preference.

About the ranged weapons comparison. I have assumed that there is 72 models shooting on the same target, equipped by the same weapon. First 2 are 1" from target, second 2 2" ... last pair 36" (range of elf bow) from target.
I have also assumed that from the pair, one stays and the other just moved.

Then I computed mean value of wounds caused by all those models. I did it for BS 3 - 5, T 3 and 4 models without armour and with AS 5+. Results varied a bit, but generally, if we only take the damage caused into consideration, tthen the best weapon is generally elf bow, in some cases RXB on multishot and in some cases crossbow. Second place is occupied by elf bow, long bow, crossbow and RXB.

Then I took into account price of the weapon. I divided the price of the weapon by the above results, essentially getting how many gp you pay per wound caused. These results are uniform. Sling is the best and short bow comes second.

Of course, this is a very simple model, which omits any tactics, omits advantage given by long range, and omits such facts like that RXB with QuickShot is exactly as good as bow with QuickShot, but four times more expensive...


Mon May 07, 2007 6:28 pm
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Trainee Warrior
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Quote:
Malman said:

Frenzy for witch elves is also not a big advantage. Frenzying model can easily be tricked



Loflar said
Yes. But you can choose corsairs instead. So using WE is IMHO just matter of preference.


I know, WE can be strong because of other things and I can use corsairs which are in the important parameters same as Averland mountaiguards but 5 points more expensive which I pay for M, I and Ld. These are all useable, but I would sometimes gladly change them for human prize and parameters.

But I do not complain on WE. I protest agaist thesis about ├╝bergang. I suppose that the warband needs only one change and this is slavehounds. Leave stupidity and/or leaving with dead bm and I think the warband is better in concurency level.

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Mon May 07, 2007 7:04 pm
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