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Druchii warband, beta 2 
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Beastmaster
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Hi all.

Does anyone need an ArmyBuilder 2 file for the beta2? I wonder if some work on this will be welcomed or ignored...

CAT

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Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:36 pm
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I would have no problem with one once an official list is made, as if you make one now and some big change happens it would mean more work for you.

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Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:22 am
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Cat-the-Odd wrote:
Does anyone need an ArmyBuilder 2 file for the beta2? I wonder if some work on this will be welcomed or ignored...

I think that it is too early for that. Beta 2, as posted, was not meant as playable list, but rather as a list of issues to be resolved (see my notes in the second post of this thread). To get a playable list, there are still questions to be answered:

1. Should the starting experience of lordlings and beastmaster be lowered?

2. Shall we agree on changed list of available Hired Swords?

3. What do you think about throwing knives?

4. Should the price of SDC be lowered?

5. Should Witch Elves sacrifice captives?

6. How should Slavehounds work? There are following options to choose from:
a) as in beta, i.e. Take Down rule
b) frenzied on a leash, i.e. Release them! rule
c) capturing enemies, i.e. Guard the Quarry rule
d) Take Down + Guard the Quarry

7. Darksteel vs. Dark Blade ... OK?

8. Should Beastlash come at 5 gc and hit with S of user and +1 to AS?

9. Sacrificing or selling prisoners is OK?

10. Frail but Fey: OK?

11. What shall we do with the Combat Movement? Early in the morning?

12. What about the new shooting skill?

13. Natural Stealth halves enemy I instead of subtracting 1: OK?

14. Slavehounds do not leave when beastmaster dies: OK?


Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:34 am
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As far as I know my file is the beta version of the Herald release. I just asked if such a work is welcomed. If so I thought about a developing file with the current version for all the legions of playtesters and a final file in the end. I think I will make just two file versions. The official beta and a testing one for us. The point is if anyone really uses the AB2 for Mortheim. Maybe even the AB3, but my work here is more or les nothing yet.


Quote:
1. Should the starting experience of lordlings and beastmaster be lowered?

Yes, let's look on the Campaign impact of this.
Quote:
2. Shall we agree on changed list of available Hired Swords?

Not my field... never used any HS.
Quote:
3. What do you think about throwing knives?

Keep them. T3 is hard and it forces the player to think a bit.
Quote:
4. Should the price of SDC be lowered?

Yes, but just a bit. So a "real" Corsair with sword, dagger, LA, SDC would be achieveable...
Quote:
5. Should Witch Elves sacrifice captives?

Yes, but then maybe force the player to do that instead of selling the guy. (maybe not, because the Leader shall have the last word on that) Captuering someone happens not too often, so it's more fluff thann a boost.
Quote:
6. How should Slavehounds work? There are following options to choose from:
a) as in beta, i.e. Take Down rule
b) frenzied on a leash, i.e. Release them! rule
c) capturing enemies, i.e. Guard the Quarry rule
d) Take Down + Guard the Quarry

I like b) together with the doggies running away if the BM is not in the warband after the game (dead, captured, sold to pit...)
I like d) as well together with de doggies staying at the BM. Since a dog does no damage if he takes dow and holds a guy it shall be ok. I like the Ld test for the victim to recover, but maybe we make it a S, I or Ws test... let's see
Quote:
7. Darksteel vs. Dark Blade ... OK?

I think Darsteel is better, since a Darkblade is some flawed thing according to the Malus DB novels.
Quote:
8. Should Beastlash come at 5 gc and hit with S of user and +1 to AS?

Leave it at 10gc. but make it like the dagger (better than in beta anyway) or even without the AS. But leave it at 10gc. The extra attack is very strong since it doubles the chances!
Quote:
9. Sacrificing or selling prisoners is OK?

Yes. As above maybe force the player for one Option when using Witchelves.
Quote:
10. Frail but Fey: OK?

Overtotalcompletely yes.
Quote:
11. What shall we do with the Combat Movement? Early in the morning?

Give it a try! it uses one advance with skill roll for one hero... Give it a try!
Quote:
12. What about the new shooting skill?

We have Rxb,xBowPistol, Bows for shades and throwing knifes. I think that the common shooting skills cover enough! Maybe drop the pistol, but using it with the Mengil model could be cool.
Quote:
13. Natural Stealth halves enemy I instead of subtracting 1: OK?

(round up) Yes!
Quote:
14. Slavehounds do not leave when beastmaster dies: OK?

considered above together with the BM

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Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:21 am
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The pistol is seriously awesome in play whenever anyone at all can get it. There's nothing like the look of horror on your opponant's face when you knock down or stun a model before combat even starts.

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Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:30 pm
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1. Should the starting experience of lordlings and beastmaster be lowered?
I think it is good as is.

2. Shall we agree on changed list of available Hired Swords?
I don't have the information to help here sorry :(

3. What do you think about throwing knives?
Love them, have yet to buy them as I lack money.

4. Should the price of SDC be lowered?
If it must be only slightly.

5. Should Witch Elves sacrifice captives?
Major yes.

6. How should Slavehounds work? There are following options to choose from:
a) as in beta, i.e. Take Down rule
b) frenzied on a leash, i.e. Release them! rule
c) capturing enemies, i.e. Guard the Quarry rule
d) Take Down + Guard the Quarry
I cannot answer until I gat some and test them but I also like b and d

7. Darksteel vs. Dark Blade ... OK?
I think darksteel but I don't use it much.

8. Should Beastlash come at 5 gc and hit with S of user and +1 to AS?
Maybe we should have two? regular and spiked, the spiked is more expensive but doesn't have the +1 to AS?

9. Sacrificing or selling prisoners is OK?
Yes.

10. Frail but Fey: OK?
Love it.

11. What shall we do with the Combat Movement? Early in the morning?
Can't put up an opion yet, as I want to test some things.

12. What about the new shooting skill?
Can't put up an opion yet, as I want to test some things.

13. Natural Stealth halves enemy I instead of subtracting 1: OK?
Yes.

14. Slavehounds do not leave when beastmaster dies: OK
I like it.

Hope this is helpful, I also am not sure there is much more that can bedone to the dark elves as the one thing I really am missing is an executioner character(strength above 3 ;) ). Other than that i am not sure if there is anything else major that could be done and still be a balanced list.

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Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:40 pm
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Cat-the-Odd wrote:
Quote:
6. How should Slavehounds work? There are following options to choose from:
a) as in beta, i.e. Take Down rule
b) frenzied on a leash, i.e. Release them! rule
c) capturing enemies, i.e. Guard the Quarry rule
d) Take Down + Guard the Quarry

I like b) together with the doggies running away if the BM is not in the warband after the game (dead, captured, sold to pit...)
I like d) as well together with de doggies staying at the BM. Since a dog does no damage if he takes dow and holds a guy it shall be ok. I like the Ld test for the victim to recover, but maybe we make it a S, I or Ws test... let's see

If they're cowed, Ld makes sense, but it makes even more sense if the dog is standing on them. If it's Ld based I'd say that when they get up the dog gets the first attack again, as it's ready for this. But otherwise maybe an opposed strength check? D6+dog's strength vs D6+ user's strength, and I don't know how to resolve attack order if they get up.
I know this gets complicated, but what about a Ld test at a modifier (can only be negative) of victim's strength - dog's strength? Best of both worlds or terrible idea?

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Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:15 pm
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Arquinsiel wrote:
The pistol is seriously awesome in play whenever anyone at all can get it. There's nothing like the look of horror on your opponant's face when you knock down or stun a model before combat even starts.

Lightning reflexes will do that for you as well ;-) I remember two examples:

1. My Witch Elf hero with 2A and lightning reflexes. Charged by two ghouls and a dreg. IIRC two of them were stunned and the remaining one missed...

2. My frenzied bret knight, 2A, Strongman, two-handed sword, I6, lightning reflexes. Charged by a saurus and two skinks, none of them got to attack.

crazyhorse wrote:
8. Should Beastlash come at 5 gc and hit with S of user and +1 to AS?
Maybe we should have two? regular and spiked, the spiked is more expensive but doesn't have the +1 to AS?

I don't know. The second one would effectively be a sigmarite steelwhip... Any opinions on this?

crazyhorse wrote:
one thing I really am missing is an executioner character(strength above 3 ).

You can still get S4 and complement it with halberd and Strike to Injure ;-) But yes, there is a problem with two-handed weapons - completely unusable without Strongman, or several other skills to raise probablility that your model will get a chance to attack. But this one we cannot correct here, it is responsibility of SG.

dggrj wrote:
But otherwise maybe an opposed strength check? D6+dog's strength vs D6+ user's strength, and I don't know how to resolve attack order if they get up.
I know this gets complicated, but what about a Ld test at a modifier (can only be negative) of victim's strength - dog's strength? Best of both worlds or terrible idea?

Sorry, but I think that it would overcomplicate things. There should be one, simple and standard roll. I chose Ld test because I expect anyone, who finds himself under such a beast, to be frightened.

So far it seems we are continuing well. The list of remaining issues is shorter now.

Starting experience of lordlings and beastmaster
My opinion is, that unless someone has a strong reason against, we should leave it to playtest.

Price of SDC
I changed it to 30 gc. OK?

Sacrifices
What to do with them? They come into play when an enemy hero is captured, when a straggler is found (44 on exploration) and when prisoners are found (333). From economical point of view, I consider sacrifices more of a hindrance then a boost (you kill a potential free experienced henchman), but I understand the fluff reasons. So, should there be a choice for the player, or should presence of Witch Elf automatically mean, that such new acquaintances will be killed?

Slavehounds
So far, the preferred options are Release them! or Take Down + Guard the Quarry

Beastlash
I changed the price to 10 gc. OK?

Shooting skill
I think that there is a place for a skill, which would justify usage of such an overexpensive piece of equipment RXB is. The problem is, that with standard shooting skills RXB can become as good as a standard bow...


Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:28 am
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Loflar wrote:

1. Should the starting experience of lordlings and beastmaster be lowered?


I vote for "8 for all secondary heroes"

Loflar wrote:
2. Shall we agree on changed list of available Hired Swords?


I like playing HS, so yes.

Loflar wrote:
3. What do you think about throwing knives?


Let them in the list. Do not look for my personal distaste for this weapon. I just do not know how to use them well.

Loflar wrote:
4. Should the price of SDC be lowered?


Yes. Every piece of armor in Mordheim is overpriced.

Loflar wrote:
5. Should Witch Elves sacrifice captives?


Fluffwise yes, strategywise let it be an option, but not a rule.

Loflar wrote:
6. How should Slavehounds work? There are following options to choose from:
a) as in beta, i.e. Take Down rule
b) frenzied on a leash, i.e. Release them! rule
c) capturing enemies, i.e. Guard the Quarry rule
d) Take Down + Guard the Quarry


b) and they mustn´t leave when beastmaster dies and mustn´t be stupid!

Loflar wrote:
7. Darksteel vs. Dark Blade ... OK?


If darkblade is mixed with malus, darksteel is technical nonsence, dark elven blade is too long, the solution is hard to find. But what about wicked blade or painblade.

Loflar wrote:
8. Should Beastlash come at 5 gc and hit with S of user and +1 to AS?


As dagger, the price 5 GC is economic price, 10 GC is Mordheim price.

Loflar wrote:
9. Sacrificing or selling prisoners is OK?


See my answer to question 5. I long for classical options, but fluffwise it is OK.

Loflar wrote:
10. Frail but Fey: OK?


Yes.

Loflar wrote:
11. What shall we do with the Combat Movement? Early in the morning?


I do not play early in the morning. And do not use this skill. But let it another testing. May be once ....

Loflar wrote:
12. What about the new shooting skill?


It is necessary to justify the price of RXB.

Loflar wrote:
13. Natural Stealth halves enemy I instead of subtracting 1: OK?


Yes

Loflar wrote:
14. Slavehounds do not leave when beastmaster dies: OK?


Necessary to make the dogs (and the beastmaster) working.

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Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:30 am
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I know I have been inactive lately(darn classes) but hopefully I shall be able to play this weekend. However, my real question is when are we going to be talking about/working on the assassin? I hope to test the warhounds this weekend.

-Crazyhorse

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Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:10 pm
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Well, I was abroad now and I also waited if someone comments on the remaining issues. Since no one did, I assume that reduced starting XP of heroes is OK for playtesting purposes and SDC and beastlash will for now stay as I have changed them.

crazyhorse wrote:
However, my real question is when are we going to be talking about/working on the assassin? I hope to test the warhounds this weekend.

My plans are:
1) to make this warband playtest-ready by resolving remaining issues (see detail in my post above):
- Sacrifices
- Slavehounds
- Shooting skill
I will post my ideas later, when I will have time to think a bit ;-)

2) choose from following: Shade warband, Cult of Pleasure warband, Assassin
3, 4) the rest of 2)


Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:06 am
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OK I shall try to test slave hounds in the next week, again mad at classes, if by sacrifices you mean having witch elves forces you to sacrifice I would say no problem it is a price you have to pay for having a good unit.

Shooting skill I feel out of league on this one so sorry but I can offer opions not ideas at the moment.

Next must be the assassin and if you have a witch elf in the party he will work for less money...please :( .

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Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:46 pm
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Sacrifices - I would prefer not to be it forced, only a possibility. The witch elves are not so good models and they are expensive so having them can increase thenumber of posibilities, not force one.

I do not understand why is shooting skill out of issue. Druchii warband will never have much chance in close combat against close combat oriented warbands not matter what you do. At least unless you significantly increase the numbers and nobody really wants to do this. So we have to cover behind enough shooting power. And RXB is much more expensive than common bow but with one skill, the bow is better. Because quickshot basically doesn´t apply to RXB. So we can either add explanation to the quickshot skill: "it allows shoot twice without penalty and thrice with penalty" (this makes RXB with quickshot slightly better than common bow) or create our own skill as I wrote before.

Slavehounds - My opinion is still the same Take down and guard the quarry

As for the next issue: I agree with the assassin, the other warband will change automatically after we change this warband and moreover I do not even know whether there is anybody who wants to play them. But yes, they are interesting and sould be revised.

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Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:11 am
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I say just two shots with no penalty no 3 shots that almost crosses the cheese line in my mind.

I am fine with the slave hounds idea.

*waves hand* You wish to work on the assassin.

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Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:19 am
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The problem is, that you can have two shots with no penalty with a common bow and QuickShot for 10 gc. With RXB and QuickShot, you pay 30 gc more to get the same results.


Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:24 am
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crazyhorse wrote:
I say just two shots with no penalty no 3 shots that almost crosses the cheese line in my mind.


I do not see anything cheesy in the idea. You pay for it. IE Reikland shooter with longbow cost the same 40GC as RXB without anyone to operate it. Better druchii in this warband have the same BS4 as the mentioned reiklander. So when reiklander gets 2 exp he may roll LGT and skill and everybody will give him quickshot. And now he has better range and the same number of missiles without any penalty for multiple shooting for the sole cost of the weapon.
The lordling gets his first advancement after 3 exp and when he takes quickshot he will only remove the penalty and so have only expensive boww fot four times his price. (OK, with initial discount for two times the price, but nonetheless the same)
When you at least add the possibility to shoot twice without the penalty or thrice WITH the multishot penalty you will not near to be rewarded for the price but at least it won't be so ridiculous.

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Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:21 am
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You make some very good points, so I will back you on this. The dark elves do need somthing to help them at the moment and with the info on the other races and weapons I have yet to face it does not look so bad.

-crazyhorse

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Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:38 pm
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Malman wrote:
new skill: ?sharpshooter? - sharpshooter using RXB is able to shoot twice in the shooting faze without -1 to hit penalty for multiple shooting or 3 times with the -1 to hit penalty, unless he moved. Moreover his eyes are so keen and hands so steady that using with crossbow type weapon he can completely omit the penalty for long range, this can be used even after he moved if other rules permit to shoot after move.


After some thinking, this rule seems to me generally OK. Three shots per turn are a lot, but can not be used if the model moved. Ignorance of long distances fits nicely with the elven radar and offers some compensation of RXB short range. Essentially, f you give a hero this skill, Eagle Eyes, Trick Shooter and poison, he will shoot like a Tilean Marksman with the Nimble and QuickShot skills. Actually slightly better because of his sharp senses.

IMO only some rewording is in order:

Quote:
Uraithen Master: Eyes of this hero are so keen and hands so steady that he can completely omit the penalty for long range if using a crossbow type weapon. Further, if he did not move this turn, he can shoot from repeater crossbow twice per turn without penalty or three times per turn with -1 penalty to hit.


My name is not perfect either, but it is more Druchii ;-) There is still a question if the rule is not too complicated, though. Opinions?


Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:24 am
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OK, since no one posted any further opinions, I hereby declare Beta 2 complete and playtest-ready. Sacrificing is voluntary, shooting skill is in, dogs have Take Down + Guard the Quarry.

I also went through all at least partially official hired swords and extended the list by those, which according to their descriptions, are available. With exception of Beggar and Slaver, which seem to be somewhat problematic.


Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:42 am
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Well it's been a while again.

I obey to the now fixed version for testing but have yet a remark on the shooting skill. I think two shooting attacks from one usual model is enough! Giving a bonus though is nice, e.g. when steady give flat +1 to hit, resulting in no penalty for double shooting or for one precise shot... keeping the shooter more steady ;-)

lets see the outcome

cat

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Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:16 pm
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I really like the Beta list; it seems a far and above improvement over the list found in the Lustria expansion. However, I really do feel that there are a number of needless complications/out-of-character rules built into the current version of the list:

1) Corsairs: Why do they have the Pit Fighter rules? Their stats alone (plus their ability to take Sea Dragon Cloaks) makes their price of 35 GC totally acceptable. I would rather have them reduced to 30 GC than give them the Pit Fighter skill, as, regardless of the fluff about "fighting under the deck" and "pillaging", they really don't have the same kind of experience as an actual pit fighter, and so should probably not have this special rule to begin with.

2) Slavehounds: Why in Khaine's name are these guys so complicated? Why so many rules? While I think it essential that they be dependent on the inclusion of a Beastmaster, and I like their stats (only slightly faster than a Witch Hunter Warhound) why do they have such silly rules about taking down and holding down enemy models? Why not simply reduce them in price, and make them more similar to the Warhounds used by the Witch Hunters (after all, it's highly unlikely that the training of these two kinds of hounds would be that disparate). I do, however, like the fact that you can only take three of them; why not keep their stats and reduce them to 15 GC (the same price as the 5 hounds you can buy in a Witch Hunters warband)?

3) Combat Movement seems to be overly complicated and I can tell you right now that I for one would never take it. If one of the skills is to be dropped, I would vote for Combat Movement.


Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:41 pm
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1. After trying them, I have mixed feelings about the Pit Fighter rule myself. Now I am also inclined to believe, that they do not need any further boost. I would not like to reduce them to 30 gc, though, since that would make them compete with Slavehounds for the status of Fodder.

2. It's historical reasons, I would say. In the beginning, there were 2 CO hounds. There are no models for them, so we sought an alternative. We decided that slave hunting dogs could be acceptable, but since they are weaker, 3 would be better then 2. There are many dog races in the world. The Slavehound was based on Chaos Hounds, but it is trained - it has higher WS and has some skills. We felt that that dogs used by what is considered an elite race (high WS, Ld and price, low numberes) should also be better and more expensive then standard dogs used by lesser races. So that's why the price and skills. Regarding the skills, there was a long debate about them, and many other ideas (A2, frenzy, etc...). As they are here, they work, but with an unwanted side effect - the dogs are now independent on Beastmaster. So some change would probably be in order.

3. I agree.

What do you think about this experimental version?


Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:04 am
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EDIT

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Ragian Cain wrote:
EDIT

You edited what exactly?


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