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New ideas to consider 
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Warband Noble
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While the beta 2 seems to be working OK (I was actually able to win with that! ;-) ) with the only exception of dogs maybe too independent on beastmaster, there are some things which are IMHO worthy of testing.

1. Lustria is going through redesign. While I don't agree with every change implemented there, it is probably as close to official as elves can get and we should IMHO consider some changes to get closer to new Dark Elves of Lustria.
They are:

a) Replacing Frail but Fey with racial maximum T3
b) Replacing Excelent Sight with:
Quote:
Fey Acuity
An Elf's senses are far beyond those of other races. During the Exploration phase when checking for artifacts or wyrdstone at the end of the game, add +1 to the number of pieces found for a Dark Elf warband.


2. The warband as it is seems to be overloaded with special rules. I would like to see what happens when playing without them. The rules, remaining after changes in 1., are:
a) Noble's Feared and Respected
b) The whole load of rules brought in by Witch Elves

3. Witch Elves. While they add a certain flavour to the warband, they also bring a lot of special rules. Are they worth it?

4. Dogs. So far there is an error that they do not use Beastmasters Ld - this will be corrected. However, they now work very independently. Is it OK? Shouldn't they be forced to work more closely with the Beastmaster?
I was thinking about replacing their two skills (Take Down and Guard the Quarry) with a single skill like this:
Quote:
Setter
Slavehounds are trained to detect hiding slaves and show them to their masters. If a slavehound knows about enemy model (has a line of sight, has unhided it etc.), Beastmaster can declare charge on this model even if Beastmaster does not see it and is further from it that 4", without having to roll for Initiative.


5. Skills. Combat Movement skill was originally included to have 6th skill. AFAIK it was never used by anyone. Further, I have two new skills to consider. Of course, they should be tested first:
Quote:
Swift Figter

This elf manoeuvres through combat, as a fine ship manoeuvres through a storm, by evading and withdrawing. The elf may make a leadership test at -1 at the end of his hand-to-hand combat phase if he is still in base contact with any enemy models. If he passes he may make a normal movement away from the enemy (he may not run or charge), without the enemy striking any blows at him. If he fails he remains in combat and must fight as normal in the following turn.

Survival of the Fittest

Naggaroth is a harsh land with harsh inhabitants and weaklings are shown no mercy. This elf is able to survive by pure strength of will. If the model gets out of action and result of the Serious Injuries roll is death, make a Leadership test against unmodified Ld of the model (no holy relics etc.). If you succeed, the model will survive but will miss D3 battles instead.


So, any opinions?


Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:35 am
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Loflar wrote:
While the beta 2 seems to be working OK (I was actually able to win with that! ;-) ) with the only exception of dogs maybe too independent on beastmaster, there are some things which are IMHO worthy of testing.

1. Lustria is going through redesign. While I don't agree with every change implemented there, it is probably as close to official as elves can get and we should IMHO consider some changes to get closer to new Dark Elves of Lustria.
They are:

a) Replacing Frail but Fey with racial maximum T3

May be. The elves will be slightly weaker, but it is not a big change.

Loflar wrote:
b) Replacing Excelent Sight with:
Quote:
Fey Acuity
An Elf's senses are far beyond those of other races. During the Exploration phase when checking for artifacts or wyrdstone at the end of the game, add +1 to the number of pieces found for a Dark Elf warband.

No. This is one of the keys to dwarven superiority. I hate elven Excelent Sight, but this will not be so irritating i battle but as I see it much stronger.

Loflar wrote:
2. The warband as it is seems to be overloaded with special rules. I would like to see what happens when playing without them. The rules, remaining after changes in 1., are:
a) Noble's Feared and Respected

Away with that. It is good and helped me to win sometimes, but hard to remember and it doesn't apply to the Nobles eventually successor.

Loflar wrote:
b) The whole load of rules brought in by Witch Elves

Yes, the rules can be reduced.

Loflar wrote:
3. Witch Elves. While they add a certain flavour to the warband, they also bring a lot of special rules. Are they worth it?

They were. I do not know how it is with present reruling for corsairs. (and I think, the corsairs should instead be reduced to 30GC and left without a special rule. You are against many special rules, aren't you?)
I would let Witches live but reduce their special rules.
Frenzy - not a special rule in fact, leave it.
Sect Enmity - the result is so rarely used, that it should be omited. I know, it is stylish, but not necessary. Let's see it perhaps that in the small group amidst enemies the enmity has lesser impact than the common goal to survive against odds and against common enemies.
Maibd poison - I said it unnecessary special rule which is not so easy to implement. I see two chances. a) omit it completely (and reduce witches to 40GC) b) replace by standard poison (ie black lotus)
Offering and rules for postbattle - thes are implemented in between battles so do not influence the game itself, but I would omit it completely - and I see this rule as contradicting (or repeating?) the ruling for post-battel. In post battle I would not tie the special rules to the Witches but let them be all times the same.

Loflar wrote:
4. Dogs. So far there is an error that they do not use Beastmasters Ld - this will be corrected. However, they now work very independently. Is it OK? Shouldn't they be forced to work more closely with the Beastmaster?
I was thinking about replacing their two skills (Take Down and Guard the Quarry) with a single skill like this:
Quote:
Setter
Slavehounds are trained to detect hiding slaves and show them to their masters. If a slavehound knows about enemy model (has a line of sight, has unhided it etc.), Beastmaster can declare charge on this model even if Beastmaster does not see it and is further from it that 4", without having to roll for Initiative.

This is a new special rule. But yes, the dogs should have some special rules. May be it can work. I would reword it sllightly because I do not see why the beastmistress has to roll against I if she is nearer than 4" and not if she is further. Or the wording led to this mistake.


Loflar wrote:
5. Skills. Combat Movement skill was originally included to have 6th skill. AFAIK it was never used by anyone. Further, I have two new skills to consider. Of course, they should be tested first:
Quote:
Swift Figter

This elf manoeuvres through combat, as a fine ship manoeuvres through a storm, by evading and withdrawing. The elf may make a leadership test at -1 at the end of his hand-to-hand combat phase if he is still in base contact with any enemy models. If he passes he may make a normal movement away from the enemy (he may not run or charge), without the enemy striking any blows at him. If he fails he remains in combat and must fight as normal in the following turn.

Survival of the Fittest

Naggaroth is a harsh land with harsh inhabitants and weaklings are shown no mercy. This elf is able to survive by pure strength of will. If the model gets out of action and result of the Serious Injuries roll is death, make a Leadership test against unmodified Ld of the model (no holy relics etc.). If you succeed, the model will survive but will miss D3 battles instead.



Both may work, but I do not like the idea of swift fighter as this is I do not see many cases when I would use it. If it allows you to charge somebody else, then it would be interesting.

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Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:54 am
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Hi Mortheimers,

Well, after abunch of time I'm back...

Coming to the topic:

I really appreciate Loflars attack on special rules. While they might sound convienient or even logic the confusion during the battle isn't payed off.


1.
a)
T3 istead of FbF is OK. Makes it less complicated.

b)
I think it is totally worth to look at this! Well Dwarfs stand out on this, but on campaign play it might bakance some weakness. Taest it, I say!

2.
a) Well.... It puts a lot of weight into losing the noble...

b) & 3.
I'd say a cleanup is good. I like Malmans approach quite much.

4.
I never used dogs since I have no models, but here shall be special rules. For my taste it shall be sht like "stay close to BM" and "do sth" like takdown... I liked the idea to drop down an enemy an d steal him a CC phase...

5.
Survival is great - this might be a REAL option. Then maybe the
Fey Acuity is not needed since the important heros don't die...

The movement skill shall be discussed further...


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Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:09 pm
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Warband Noble
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I answer with delay - I am in Rome and can not access internet every day.

1a - We seem to agree on that.

1b - Yes, someone, please, test it. I will not be able to do that before September (probably). I do not say that we WILL head this way, but it would be interesting to know how it works. It can probably be expected to allow for a smoother play, if elves can be there without the annoying radar. Although I was told as well, that they should have a way to get it. (Other warbands can hire the elf ranger to get it.) Which would mean either a special rule for one hero or a skill. Any opinions?

2a - I agree with Malman here. It may help, but overall, it is just a complication.

3. So, what to do with WE? Frenzy is their attribute, so it has to stay. I have no problem with dropping Sect Enmity and sacrificing, I just wonder what would fluff defenders say.
Now about the poison. What to do? Drop it completely and make WE just a frenzied model for 40? Or replace? By Black Lotus? Myself, I am for using poisons. To make them just a frenzied model seem a bit plain to me. But with Black Lotus, this could make them real killers against Posessed and Beastmen - do we want that?

About the corsairs. I don't want them to be for 30 gc, because they would start to compete with dogs for job of cannonfodder. Giving them skill was a way to make them better and comparable with WE. The WE can still be better for some purposes, though - say against fear causers.

4. Dogs. The point of the Setter rule is to tie dogs more to BM. The problem is, that if you tie them to BM by restraining their movement (maximum distance etc.) you also severely limit their tactical usage as marchblockers, canine shields, long range threat etc. The confusing wording is there because I tried to describe two distinct situations - charging unseen enemy within 4" and charging unseen enemy somewhere in charge range. BM simply would not have to test I.

Currently, when dog can knock enemy model down, it is OK, but very BM independent. So the change we are considering is more matter of feel then actual need.

5. Swift Fighter I copied from a homegrown skills thread on SG forum. Surely we can debate how it should work and if we need it at all. Survival is based on a skill from new Druchii of Lustria, which was almost exact copy of the dwarven skill, but I have changed it, so instead of a sure reroll it gives a chance of survival. I don't think that it will make Fey Acquity redundant - it is there to compensate high model prices. However, if there is an Excelent Sight skill, we might be already at 10 skills or so, which might be too much.


Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:52 am
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Loflar wrote:

a) Replacing Frail but Fey with racial maximum T3
b) Replacing Excelent Sight with:
Quote:
Fey Acuity
An Elf's senses are far beyond those of other races. During the Exploration phase when checking for artifacts or wyrdstone at the end of the game, add +1 to the number of pieces found for a Dark Elf warband.


I like these ideas, makes it simple without loosing the feel or weakening the army.

2. The warband as it is seems to be overloaded with special rules. I would like to see what happens when playing without them. The rules, remaining after changes in 1., are:
a) Noble's Feared and Respected
b) The whole load of rules brought in by Witch Elves

Must keep feared and respected, look at how Rork keeps his power ;).
Keep frenzy, duh, and IMHO sect enmity. The others are up for debate.


3. Witch Elves. While they add a certain flavour to the warband, they also bring a lot of special rules. Are they worth it?

Yes.

4. Dogs. So far there is an error that they do not use Beastmasters Ld - this will be corrected. However, they now work very independently. Is it OK? Shouldn't they be forced to work more closely with the Beastmaster?
I was thinking about replacing their two skills (Take Down and Guard the Quarry) with a single skill like this:
Quote:
Setter
Slavehounds are trained to detect hiding slaves and show them to their masters. If a slavehound knows about enemy model (has a line of sight, has unhided it etc.), Beastmaster can declare charge on this model even if Beastmaster does not see it and is further from it that 4", without having to roll for Initiative.


As long as they can "fetch", aka charge ahead of the beastmaster then return.

5. Skills. Combat Movement skill was originally included to have 6th skill. AFAIK it was never used by anyone. Further, I have two new skills to consider. Of course, they should be tested first:
Quote:
Swift Figter

This elf manoeuvres through combat, as a fine ship manoeuvres through a storm, by evading and withdrawing. The elf may make a leadership test at -1 at the end of his hand-to-hand combat phase if he is still in base contact with any enemy models. If he passes he may make a normal movement away from the enemy (he may not run or charge), without the enemy striking any blows at him. If he fails he remains in combat and must fight as normal in the following turn.

It almost sounds like the dark eldar rule hit and run. I like the idea.

Survival of the Fittest

Naggaroth is a harsh land with harsh inhabitants and weaklings are shown no mercy. This elf is able to survive by pure strength of will. If the model gets out of action and result of the Serious Injuries roll is death, make a Leadership test against unmodified Ld of the model (no holy relics etc.). If you succeed, the model will survive but will miss D3 battles instead.


I love this one, it feels so fluffy, and keeps me from loosing so many people on a bad game. I just wonder if it is fair.

-crazyhorse

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Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:55 pm
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Warband Noble
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So far we seem to agree on replacing Frail but Fey with maximum T3 and replacing Excellent Sight with Fey Acquity - well, at least to test it. We also agree on frenzy of Witch Elves.

OK, I will not press dropping of the frenzied girls ;-)

We disagree on Feared and Respected and Sect Enmity.

crazyhorse wrote:
As long as they can "fetch", aka charge ahead of the beastmaster then return.

You mean something like the skill of Veteran Hydra?


Quote:
Quote:
Survival of the Fittest

Naggaroth is a harsh land with harsh inhabitants and weaklings are shown no mercy. This elf is able to survive by pure strength of will. If the model gets out of action and result of the Serious Injuries roll is death, make a Leadership test against unmodified Ld of the model (no holy relics etc.). If you succeed, the model will survive but will miss D3 battles instead.


I love this one, it feels so fluffy, and keeps me from loosing so many people on a bad game. I just wonder if it is fair.


I don't know. Do you think that Dwarven Extra Tough rule is fair? Hard to say. It costs a skill and it can save the model from death. And in a way, my sugested skill is weaker.

Anyway, skills currently considered are:
1. Fury of Khaine
2. Fey Quickness
3. Infiltration
4. Master of Poisons
5. Counter Attack
6. Uraithen Master
7. Swift Fighter
8. Survival of the Fittest
9. Excelent Sight

This is probably too many. About three of them should probably be dropped.


Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:51 pm
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