Khaine, Jealous brother or Khorne aspect

Eternis · Post by **Eternis** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:51 pm

In Warhammer fantasy roleplay Realms of sorcery there was an interesting arguement over whether Khaine is the jealous brother of Morr who steals his souls or an aspect of the Blood god Khorne for the particularly violent way in which offerings and worship is offered.
What do you think?

Asperon thorn · Post by **Asperon thorn** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:57 pm

Oi. I don't know the fluff around Morr. But the Korne is Khaine thing comes up all too frequently.

Khaine is NOT khorne. As far as I can tell he is an ancient elven god, from before the Chaos incursions. To put it mildly:

NOT EVERY GOD IS AN ASPECT OF CHAOS.

There is a war god for every race, and they are not all Khorne.

Asperon Thorn

Ansob. · Post by **Ansob.** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:14 pm

I think whichever one of my collegues mods DD will forgive me for this, but...

KHAINE IS NOT KHORNE.

For the record.

This has been discussed more than once, and the answer is no. Khaine and Khorne are two very distinct gods. Use the search function.

Asperon thorn · Post by **Asperon thorn** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:16 pm

I honestly think there should be a banner running across the top of the sight that says that.

Asperon Thorn

Alcing ragaholic · Post by **Alcing ragaholic** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:17 pm

Khaine is Khorne! I know it! I saw it on the Intarnets! It must be true! LOLCSXXLSKDFJSDFJHSOUDFROZXXORDS!

Z

Cal · Post by **Cal** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:19 pm

LOL, great post Z. Personally I think they're both tzeentch's control as GW said Tzeentch manipulates everyone so he controls both of them........

Arquinsiel · Post by **Arquinsiel** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:19 pm

NOT EVERY GOD IS AN ASPECT OF CHAOS

Actually they are. Law, good, evil and neutrality being potential permutations of infinite probabilities.

To re-iterate though:

KHAINE != KHORNE

Post by **General kala** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:23 pm

Oh good lord, not this again. I suppose every n00b has to ask themselves this at one time or another.

Arquinsiel wrote:To re-iterate though:

KHAINE != KHORNE

For those of you who are not code literate != means "Is Not Equal To"

A neutral shade of black. wrote:I think whichever one of my collegues mods DD will forgive me for this, but...

Forgiven.

GW is pretty lazy when it comes to fluff development (just look at the Warhammer world map). So it isn't unrealistic to think that they originally duplicated the gods and switched two letters in the names. But if you look at the fluff and the style associated with the two and their worshippers and minions as they develop over time, you will see an increasing dichotomy in their ways. Khaine is a god of infinite subtlety and forethought. Khorne is anything but. Khorne is a god of second degree murder - killing in the heat of passion. Khaine is murder one - premeditated and cold.

Zavval · Post by **Zavval** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:27 pm

I don't think that Khaine is Khorne Though the symbol of Khaine IS disturbingly similar to the mark of Khorne.

Also, if Khaine would be Khorne, why would he give Druchii something like cauldron of blood. Wouldn't it be more Khorne-like to give them some huge axe to chop off some heads for him.

In the WFRP rulebook is a theory of most human and elven gods being same beings just worshipped with different names, but the Morr's jealous brother-theory sounds just too far-fetched

Iandaredh kythorion · Post by **Iandaredh kythorion** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:51 pm

"In the wider world beyond the chaos wastes, some worship Khaine, Lord of Murder, though whether the Elven god Khaine is Khorne by another name or a less power in his own right is debated..."

Page 19, Hordes of Chaos

Meaning GW has not jet decided about it but it is definitely not only a coincidence or error, they are supporting those speculations by the fluff.

Shinobi · Post by **Shinobi** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:07 pm

A neutral shade of black. wrote:KHAINE IS NOT KHORNE.

I agree, can I put that on my signature?

Iandaredh Kythorion wrote:Meaning GW has not jet decided about it but it is definitely not only a coincidence or error, they are supporting those speculations by the fluff.

I don't believe so. As mentioned earlier, elves had gods before chaos. Altought GW might have wanted to leave it undecided to make fluff more interesting.

Zakath the slaughterer · Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:32 pm

Shinobi wrote:Altought GW might have wanted to leave it undecided to make fluff more interesting.

Um, wot? Like... You mean that... GW has actually planned something or paid attention to a detail???

You know, that is bordering blasphemy!!! OMG!!! (;))

Methinks Khaine isn't Khorne, they are two different gods. I think. Yeah.

EDIT: 1000th post, huzzah!

Devoured_mazarine · Post by **Devoured_mazarine** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:42 pm

haine is a god of infinite subtlety and forethought. Khorne is anything but. Khorne is a god of second degree murder - killing in the heat of passion. Khaine is murder one - premeditated and cold.

i dont totally agree... witch elves hardly kill premeditated and cold... they kill with a pleased smile on their lips, and i think black guard might be like that to.. though i dont think all khainites are as "devoted" to killing as the witches

Zakath the slaughterer · Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:49 pm

@Devoured_Mazarine: Witch Elves are quite an extreme case, don't you think

And BG... I don't find them too religious, they're just mean and nasty

I like General Kala's definition - it makes Lord of Murder even cooler!

Thanatos · Post by **Thanatos** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:59 pm

You guys should read liber chaotica, it opens the eyes of the nonbelievers, especially the whole stuff with the "age of chaos relative to the age of elves". Slaanesh is the youngest god, birthed of the eldar, but khorne is the first god, and has been around since the first infint races breeded the ideals of war and bloodshed. Since then khorne has become more of an ancestor god to the younger races' dietes, one of which being khaine. In actuallity khaine is not khorne but rather a descendant and refinement of the rough essence of slaughter and battle, a form much alikened to a more powerful deamon prince, a being coalesced from the will power of an elder god but still given a mind and direction all its own.

Chaos still makes everything along the lines of gods and deamons, but sometimes chaos, especially khornate chaos, loses control of its minions. Hence be'lakor, but he got dealt with. Khaine on the other hand is totally secluded from the greater deities, probably walled off by his own antimagic that keeps the aethyr at bay. Without the control of khorne, khaine seeks to do as he sees fit, slaying in the myriad forms that he indulges in.

but yeah Khaine is still still not khorne

Lethalis · Post by **Lethalis** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:04 pm

Devoured_Mazarine wrote:
haine is a god of infinite subtlety and forethought. Khorne is anything but. Khorne is a god of second degree murder - killing in the heat of passion. Khaine is murder one - premeditated and cold.

i dont totally agree... witch elves hardly kill premeditated and cold... they kill with a pleased smile on their lips, and i think black guard might be like that to.. though i dont think all khainites are as "devoted" to killing as the witches

Unlike Khorne's followers, Witch Elves go in battle drugged and that is why they are such freakshows

Black Guard have nothing to do with Khaine though, their god is Malekith as far as they have a god. That's enough politics and religion for them.

If you want the real face of Khaine (the most common amongst all 1001

) then that is the Assassin; incredibly fast, raised without parents, able to wield most weapons with extreme skill, and subtle, premeditated and cold. As opposed to Witches who get drugged and act worse than Orcs

Defender of the gate · Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:34 pm

I've recently answered a similiar topic in the GW forum.
Khaine isn't Khorne; he's an aspect.
They are empowered by similiar thoughts, so you can say that he's an aspect.

Nagathi · Post by **Nagathi** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:46 pm

There is no need to shout, Alex.
This has indeed be discussed many times before, but why should we lock it down? I want this site to be alive and vivid. I don't want it to be an archive of already discussed issues.

My take on the matter:
Gods are the mind creating embodiments for strong animalistic drives, such as killing death and murder. People in the north named this embodiment of such drives to "Khorne" while the Elves called him "Khaine". They are from the same elemental source of power, but they are not the same. Khorne has eveloped since his "creation" and Khaine too. They have grown apart. Live with it

Nagathi
The Sacred Sentinel

Devoured_mazarine · Post by **Devoured_mazarine** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:23 pm

Unlike Khorne's followers, Witch Elves go in battle drugged and that is why they are such freakshows Black Guard have nothing to do with Khaine though, their god is Malekith as far as they have a god. That's enough politics and religion for them.

If you want the real face of Khaine (the most common amongst all 1001 ) then that is the Assassin; incredibly fast, raised without parents, able to wield most weapons with extreme skill, and subtle, premeditated and cold. As opposed to Witches who get drugged and act worse than Orcs

dont all darkelves officialy worship khaine? i believe even the black guard worship khaine but havent found any fluff that proves/destroys my theory... never thought about the fact that the witches are drugged, too bad kind of spoiled my idea of them.. perverse battle slut with a taste for cutting captives

Asperon thorn · Post by **Asperon thorn** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:25 pm

perverse battle slut with a taste for cutting captives

Yeah, that's incorrect. They are Junkie perverse battle sluts with a taste for cutting captives.

Asperon Thorn

Lust · Post by **Lust** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:29 pm

i say the jelosu brother of morr the god of death for all who dont know him he is the god of death when you die you go to his relm he hates necromancers and hes is worshgiped by empire

Defender of the gate · Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:30 pm

Nagathi wrote:My take on the matter:
Gods are the mind creating embodiments for strong animalistic drives, such as killing death and murder. People in the north named this embodiment of such drives to "Khorne" while the Elves called him "Khaine". They are from the same elemental source of power, but they are not the same. Khorne has eveloped since his "creation" and Khaine too. They have grown apart. Live with it

Nagathi
The Sacred Sentinel

Good point Nagathi, altough gods are concentrations of thoughts,
it's quite logic: The warp is a dimension where all mortals are connected through their thoughts and emotions, some with larger warp presence (soul) some with smaller. The more thought/emotion the larger presence

The larger presence, the more does the mortal affect the warp.
As every thought becomes part of the warp.

Now, if numerous thoughts are alike, that thought will get a greater presence in the Aethyr. Thus a greater 'entity' is formed.
And in the case of the Chaos gods, they are each 'merely'
concentrations of thoughts.

Khorne is the god of Anger, and all emotions related to wars, he is because
so many belive he is.

Khaine is the god of Murderous thoughts; but, is it not so that
those thoughts involve anger? Or similiar thoughts and emotions as those
empowering Khorne?

If the both gods are empowered by so similiar thoughts, even empower each another so often, could then not Khaine be called a part of Khorne?

That's my reason to see Khaine as an aspect of Khorne.

i say the jelosu brother of morr the god of death for all who dont know him he is the god of death when you die you go to his relm he hates necromancers and hes is worshgiped by empire

The soul go to whichever god you worshipped in life, of course
the gods of death takes the souls of respective race would they bellive that
their souls goes there.

All chaos gods takes their follower's souls,
and Gork or Mork would take the souls of O&G
Elven souls goes to Morai (that's the right name, right?), rather than say Khaine, because they believe
Morai takes souls; not Khaine

DotG
"Tchar has learned me much of the ways of the Aethyr" :twisted:

Darmort · Post by **Darmort** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:30 pm

Thanatos wrote:You guys should read liber chaotica, it opens the eyes of the nonbelievers, especially the whole stuff with the "age of chaos relative to the age of elves". Slaanesh is the youngest god, birthed of the eldar, but khorne is the first god, and has been around since the first infint races breeded the ideals of war and bloodshed. Since then khorne has become more of an ancestor god to the younger races' dietes, one of which being khaine. In actuallity khaine is not khorne but rather a descendant and refinement of the rough essence of slaughter and battle, a form much alikened to a more powerful deamon prince, a being coalesced from the will power of an elder god but still given a mind and direction all its own.

Chaos still makes everything along the lines of gods and deamons, but sometimes chaos, especially khornate chaos, loses control of its minions. Hence be'lakor, but he got dealt with. Khaine on the other hand is totally secluded from the greater deities, probably walled off by his own antimagic that keeps the aethyr at bay. Without the control of khorne, khaine seeks to do as he sees fit, slaying in the myriad forms that he indulges in.

but yeah Khaine is still still not khorne

Meh, I don't think Khaine is Khorne either. Khaine's too subtle to be, and his only sacrifices are those killed on the alters, while Khorne's are one the battle field. You could also argue that Khorne isn't Khaine, and vice verca, because Khaine has a lot of temples, while Khorne has very few actual temples, again, Khorne's being the battle field.
While it is rumoured amoung the Empire and the rest of the Old World that Khorne and Khaine are the same, that's just them not actually understanding the differences between murder and butchery.

Also, as Nagathi just stated, Gods are also a state of mind, and if you need further convincing on that, see the Order of the Stick and Elan's Puppet God when he's trying to zap Roy with a thunder bolt,

Ansob. · Post by **Ansob.** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:50 pm

http://www.imperial-literature.net/forum/about2329.html

A useful link, but one that Nag especially might find interesting. Yes, it talks about 40k history; so what? You are aware that in previous editions the WW is a planet in the 40k universe?

Khaine isn't Khorne, though they both draw their powers from similar sources. As Nag says, gods are created by their worshippers; there's no way an elven god could be a human one. Their psyches are too different.

Defender of the gate · Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:56 pm

A neutral shade of black. wrote:Khaine isn't Khorne, though they both draw their powers from similar sources. As Nag says, gods are created by their worshippers; there's no way an elven god could be a human one. Their psyches are too different.

Not only by the thoughts of their worshppers, by all thoughts and emotions from all mortals.

Khaine, Jealous brother or Khorne aspect

Jealous Brother or Khorne aspect

Khaine, Jealous brother or Khorne aspect