Sexist Assassin Cult

[Harnethflayskin]

I was just wondering if anyone could give me a reference to where it says in any GW lore that assassins are a male only sect?

I have yet to see any such fact in my meanderings through GW novela and mags, but have seen people mentioning it through these forums.

I mean, if there is nothing to say that its a male only sect, potentially a female could become an assassin right...?

[Overmind]

On death night only boys are thrown in the Cauldron. That would make the survivors also all male.
Hence assasins as male.

Girls captured on Death Night become witch elves.

[Harnethflayskin]

Ah, true!

Thanks! So obvious...

[Lazarus]

As written, "newborn babes captured during death night are thrown into the cauldron, most perish, but those who are blessed by khaine emerge and are trained as assassins". Thus assassins may be either male or female. Sounds like a reason for some conversion work to me.

[Jayferd22]

As written before that line (or possibly in another piece) it states that witch elves throw male babies capture on death night into the cauldron. As overmind mentioned female babies captured become witch elves

[Jadin]

just female babies become Witch Elves? That would mess with my House.

[Lazarus]

There may be another piece written, but within the notes in the 5th and 6th ed books as well as on critical hit, there is no mention of witch candidates coming from the cauldron, only assassins. And there is no mention made of the sex of those babies thrown into the cauldron either. Please point out the alternate source, I would like to read it.

[Drainial]

I have certainly never heard that whitch elves are from the couldron, certainly it makes not mention of such in their unit entery the way it does for assasins. Besides if that many babies came out of the couldren unscythed Khaine wouldn't have a whole lot of sacrifices that actualy died.

Likewise I cannot think of a single mention in official fluff that only male babies are put in the couldren and become assasins. Of course I could be wrong.

[Saint of m]

In otherwords, the new book needs to clarifie this, or we'll be bring this up in another three mounths.

[Sedro]

your all right saint of m there is no need to argue about that now

[Overmind]

Well all Witch Elves are girls. That one is answered in the book.

As for the assasin question, the answer is on wikipedia. However I have become increasingly annoyed in my inability to find the source.

[Belial]

Female babies thrown into the cauldron are not witch elves. Not AFAIK. If they are thrown in at all, they become assasins as well, but my guess is that the Witch Elves catch a lot of babies, and then the boys gets a nice hot bath.
Pretty much what overmind wrote in his first post.

[Linda lobsta defenda]

just female babies become Witch Elves? That would mess with my House.

They are also called the Brides of Khaine, not the Brides and grooms of khaine. Also the page 10 clearly spell out that they are all girls.

[Prince daerlythe]

IMO it works a little like this:

Witch Elves have two sources: those of age who willingly (or not) join the Cult of Khaine, and the (few) strong female babes who manage to survive the cauldron.

Assassins, by contrast, only come from those male babes who survive the cauldron. This ensures that they are strong, and raised to be heartless.

Even though the druchii are a heartless race, I think it logical that elven women (thanks to their link to Isha) have a slightly greater connection with life, and as such are generally a fraction behind the men when it comes to cruelty. Thus Assassins are always male so as that the greatest amount of commitment to murder can be made.

All this is speculation, of course.

[Drainial]

Isha hasent been worshiped in Naggroth for over 4000 years, I doubt that any such conection exists.

[Lazarus]

For my part, I'll take it as read as written, babes that survive the cauldron become assassins, whether they are male or female, just another opportunity for conversion ideas. Similarly, our noble and highborn choices have been biased towards males as well, while females of equivalent social strata are thought to be sorceresses. Yet again, this provides good opportunity for conversion, not that we're overburdened with any kind of noble models.

[Dalamar]

Thing is, I don't believe female babies are thrown into the cauldron... they are introduced to wonderful life of being a witch elf (and that doesn't involve cauldron bathing until adulthood )

[Anglakhel]

In the 4th/5th Edition there is no mention of babies being thrown into the Cauldron.

We're told that on Death Night, the Witch Elves deliberately kidnap young male druchii that they will take back to the Temple to train as Assassins.

So the precedent was set for male only Assassins in contrast to the female only Witch Elves.

However, in the 6th Edition Army Book, we are given the expansion of the Cauldron of Blood story. Now we are told that any newborn babes or infants that are kidnapped by the Witch Elves on Death Night are thrown into the Cauldrons. Those infants that survive are considered chosen or marked by Khaine and will be trained as Assassins.

There is absolutely no mention in the 6th Edition of Assassins being restricted to male only. This certainly leaves open the possibility that female infants are thrown into the Cauldron and that they can become trained as Assassins.

Personally, I prefer the idea that Assassins can be either male or female. I see the Brides of Khaine as being given a chance to give birth to Khaine's Children through the magic of the Cauldron of Blood. The Cauldron becomes a surrogate womb through which Khaine's Children enter the world.

This version gains further support if you look to the Lore additions from WAR. In WAR, the newly created Disciple of Khaine, is also a survivor on the Cauldron ritual on Death Night. However, we know for certain that the Disciples of Khaine can be male or female. So, we know that female babes were thrown into the Cauldron. It makes sense then to assume that not all female survivors on the Cauldron emerge with eyes of molten brass, so those female babes that survive would be trained as Assassins.

Either way, I prefer to think of the Witch Elves as having an alternate path for initiation into the Temple of Khaine. I would think the Witches are selected for their virtues (beauty, grace, cruelty, malice, etc) rather than be the product of the Cauldrons of Blood. In fact, we're told in the 4th Edition that Witches are chosen for these traits and that only the strongest possible candidates become Brides of Khaine. This is all kept quite separate from the details of Death Night. It makes more sense to me that Witches are chosen as they progress through adolescence and these traits become manifest, rather then chosen as infants before these traits have had a chance to develop.

[Prince daerlythe]

So it's fair conclusion that females become witch elves and males become assassins when they're inducted into the Temple.

[Monkeylord]

Well, it has always been the case that Witch Elves are exclusively female.

p.36, Dark Elves, 5th Edition

"Amongst the Dark Elves she-Elves are just as deadly as their menfolk, and are equally adept warriors, fighting alongside the males in battle. The wildest of all are the Witch Elves, the brides of Khaine, Lord of Murder."

As far as assassins go, it has generally always been implied that they were males, and explicitly stated as such in the 5th edition book.

p.40, Dark Elves, 5th Edition

"During the insane revelies of Death Night the Witch Elves steal away young male children who they raise in the temples of Khaine. As they grow, they learn the dark secrets of Khaine: the deadly martial arts, the power of poisons, how to move without a sound and how to slip through the night unseen. They are murderers supreme, and most deadly agents of the Witch King."

I think the fact that the 6th edition book simply says "babes" instead of "male children" is most likely an oversight by Gav Thorpe when writing the entry. While there's certainly nothing to stop one from fielding a female assassin, it does run contrary to accepted Druchii canon. Much like a male sorcerer would be now... But you can always come up with some fluff of your own to explain away the discrepency.

However, one's creative powers would be stretched pretty thin to explain a male witch elf...

[Loki]

Please don't ever quote WAR as a legitimate source of fluff again. Its just silly, like believing the Black Library stuff.

[Dalamar]

No one quoted WAR. Sorcerers were quite common in 5th edition (having more models than sorceresses as well at the time)

[Khel]

No one quoted WAR.

This version gains further support if you look to the Lore additions from WAR. In WAR, the newly created Disciple of Khaine, is also a survivor on the Cauldron ritual on Death Night. However, we know for certain that the Disciples of Khaine can be male or female. So, we know that female babes were thrown into the Cauldron. It makes sense then to assume that not all female survivors on the Cauldron emerge with eyes of molten brass, so those female babes that survive would be trained as Assassins.

***

I'll be back to edit this once I have something worth contributing.

[Arcturus]

I wouldn't call assassins cult sexist, it's the same cult, temple of khaine, they just have different roles for the sexes. Offcourse, the mortality rate when joining is kinda high for males(only floating babies come through).

Cheers

[Harnethflayskin]

However, one's creative powers would be stretched pretty thin to explain a male witch elf...

And what a sight THAT would be...

Potentially the most disturbing model ever...