Anaerion, Dark elf or High elf?

[Red...]

No Asur would bow down to darkness no matter who represented it.

All elves have the potential to succumb to darkness. How else do dark elves exist?

[Giladis]

I agree what you say. All elves can succumb to darkness but Asur would not bow before darkness.

Cheers

[Red...]

Right, but Caledor was prior to the civil war: how do you know for sure that, had Aenarion and he both survived, that he would not have turned to the dark side? Even if he himself had been against such things, it's possible that he would have put the cause of a united Ulthuan and/or his friendship with Aenarion above his own distaste towards Aenarion's barbaric ways. Alternatively, he himself might have been lured away later by the subtler temptations of Slannesh, which did not really exist at the time of his departure from Aenarion's side...

[Drainial]

I agree what you say. All elves can succumb to darkness but Asur would not bow before darkness.

Cheers

Dachela and her family spring to mind, as do the numerous Asur who spy for the Druchii (probably only in the hundreds but still), and are you seriously saying that there are no circumstances under which a peasant farmer would do as he was told by a daemon or Druchii lord? The Asur as a whole probably wouldn't willingly give way to anything perceived as evil, but that doesn't stop individuals from doing so and besides which 'darkness' can worm it's way into the normal infrastructure of society.

[Playa23]

@Giladis
yeah... you going to have to clarify that for me because if all elves can "succumb to darkness" (as in give up or give in) then I'm pretty sure that the Asur can bow to darkness...they're elves... I mean that's pretty much how we became a faction... we were a Asur... kind of... at some point. Anyway if you meant that 'all' the Asur would not bow...well its only a matter of time because those that don't eventually... will probably be killed by us mwahaha! Praise Khaine!... wow got pretty carried away... my bad. Thanks everyone and remember to try not to digress from the main topic too much (just trying to stop it before it possibly happens)

[Fingol23]

Gilidas is probably using the (in character definition) that any elf who has succumbed to darkness could not therefore have been a real Asur.

[Red...]

Gilidas is probably using the (in character definition) that any elf who has succumbed to darkness could not therefore have been a real Asur.

That's moving a bit into dubious territory.

You're allowing a flexible, moving definition of whether someone belongs to a race or not, based on a subjective criteria.

Imagine how you would view the following conversation:

"No American would ever question the president".
"But that guy who was born and bred in Maryland USA, with American parents and ancestors, just did."
"Well, he wasn't a real American then, because no real American would ever question the president".

The bottom line is that dark elves, high elves and wood elves are all elf stock. Over the years, many high elves have succumbed to the temptations of Slannesh and gone over to the darker side. Those elves who have done so and live in Naggaroth have taken on the group name of "druchii", whereas those who have resisted the temptations and stayed in Ulthuan have taken on the group name of "asur". But Asur do become druchii, we know that. To suggest that these people were never real asur because of their later actions is just silly and dubious really.

[Playa23]

Well thanks to Fingol I might be able to sway back to the original topic. I think that all of us would agree that Aenarion was in fact the epitome of what a High Elf or Asur is. I would consider that his drawing of the Sword of Khaine was him succumbing to darkness. Now one might say that without the drawing of the sword the whole world would have fell into Oblivion. However His primary desire for the drawing of the sword seemed to be for revenge... therefore succumbing to darkness... To make it worse it seemed that the drawing of the sword was a worst case scenario...its an evil little sword... that taints you with 'darkness'. I might be wrong but was it not also mentioned in a prophecy that the drawing of the sword would damn the elven race. If there was such a prophecy then he was fully aware of the consequences (I might be wrong about the prophecy don't have the book nearby). In either case he knew the drawing of the sword was a big no,no. If he could succumb to darkness then surely its possible (for any reason) that any other Asur could succumb to darkness too. Thanks

[Drainial]

Of course it should be rememberd that he did put the sword aside after the task was done and he was dying, it seems to me that he didn't want to damn elvin society, he wanted to save it.

[Playa23]

If the prophecy was right the way I stated it above; that in drawing the sword he damned elven society then its irrelevant that he wanted to throw the sword aside after his task. I just need clarification on that prophecy though. Either way he was submitting to the darkness. There is something else I should clarify too, that giving into revenge does not make him a Dark Elf. I'm sure that revenge is normal for any race in the Warhammer world but drawing the sword was definitely a big no no (and I'm sure he knew it)... thanks

[Fingol23]

However possibly damning elven society on the basis of some prophecy seems a better option than seeing it drown under an unending tide of Daemons.

[Drainial]

Fingol23 makes a reasonable point, Aenarion (alongside every other elf on Ulthuan) was stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea, and he chose the lesser of two evils. Were his motives entirely pure? No, but just because one of his motives was revenge doesn't necessarily mean that it was his only motivation or that he succumbed to darkness.

Khaine is the thousand faced god, i.e. there are many facets to his character. I don't think that simply labelling the elven god of war as evil is particularly fair. Khaine is a reflection of the warlike instincts of elves, just as Ulric is a reflection of the warlike instincts of men, anyone think Ar Ulric is the prince of darkness? Was Valten one step short of being a daemon prince? Sigmar is a war god too.

Maybe the ends don't justify the means, but personally I think that in this case they did, and labelling Khaine as dark is (while not entirely unfair) simplistic.

[Maldor]

Khaine is the thousand faced god, i.e. there are many facets to his character. I don't think that simply labelling the elven god of war as evil is particularly fair. Khaine is a reflection of the warlike instincts of elves, just as Ulric is a reflection of the warlike instincts of men, anyone think Ar Ulric is the prince of darkness? Was Valten one step short of being a daemon prince? Sigmar is a war god too.

Maybe the ends don't justify the means, but personally I think that in this case they did, and labelling Khaine as dark is (while not entirely unfair) simplistic.

Interesting point, though Khaine is the god of murder, not war. War is included under the umbrella of murder according to WHFB lore, as is execution, predation, and revenge. Given the emphasis in the fluff on the elves that they put on light and dark being two necessary sides of the same coin, it's interesting to see how the elven god of vengeance also embodies a certain view of justice.

[Drainial]

The name god of murder is essentialy to do what I have said, to make Khaine more 'evil', because Dark elves are an 'evil' army and therefore have to have a dark god; god of violence or aggression would probobly be closer to what he/it is but that doesn't sound so catchy.

[Maldor]

From a fluff standpoint, the Druchii relish murder, while the Asur don't seem to much differentiate between violence and murder.

[Drainial]

The Asur also relish violence, the difference is that they try to avoid it in spite of that fact and only turn to it as a last resort while the Druchii embrace it.

P.S 3000th post

[Night rider]

I'd have to argue Aenarion was probably a kind of combination between the Asur and Druchii.

Aenarion was always motivated by the desire to defend Ulthuan and his fellow Elves, it was the driving force behind almost everything he did. That's especially evident at the start of his reign.

When he lost his first wife, Astarielle, and thought he'd lost his children his very mortal desire for revenge caused his greatest mistake - drawing the Widowmaker.
From there he becomes a darker figure, presumably as the Widowmaker fed that desire for revenge and combat, eventually falling out with his greatest friend, Caledor.

Yet he never quite manages to fall completely out of the light in the way the Druchii would - he recognised the need to defend Caledor's efforts to create the Vortex for the good of all Elves and the world, rather than simply fighting to save himself.

So I think there are elements of both sides within Aenarion.

In "what if?" terms we know the call of Asuryan weakened and the thirst of the Widowmaker each lost a lot of their hold over him once the Vortex was created so I think: he'd have moved back towards the light more and Malekith probably wouldn't have become Dark (or at least not as Dark as he did become).

[Drainial]

Drawing widowmaker was a mistake? Without it the world would have fallen to the daemons.

[Red...]

In "what if?" terms we know the call of Asuryan weakened and the thirst of the Widowmaker each lost a lot of their hold over him once the Vortex was created so I think: he'd have moved back towards the light more and Malekith probably wouldn't have become Dark (or at least not as Dark as he did become).

Malekith becomes dark as a result of future adventures (doesn't he pick up the circlet of iron somewhere or something?). It may be that his dead father's ways influenced him, but it's not overtly stated anywhere, whereas his discovery of the circlet of iron is directly linked to his fall into darkness.

Coincidentally, IIRC Slannesh was not one of the god's around during the origin incursions of Chaos: his entry to the pantheon of chaos gods came later, so Aenarion could in no way be linked with Slannesh. Could be wrong on that one though...

[Night rider]

Drawing widowmaker was a mistake? Without it the world would have fallen to the daemons.

It was a personal mistake for Aenarion.

It led to him becoming a much darker Elf then he otherwise would have been, with greater recklessness and bloodlust, and caused a curse to descend on his entire family line.

Malekith becomes dark as a result of future adventures (doesn't he pick up the circlet of iron somewhere or something?). It may be that his dead father's ways influenced him, but it's not overtly stated anywhere, whereas his discovery of the circlet of iron is directly linked to his fall into darkness.

Malekith found the Circlet of Iron during his travels while Bel Shanaar was Phoenix King not while Aenarion was alive.

Coincidentally, IIRC Slannesh was not one of the god's around during the origin incursions of Chaos: his entry to the pantheon of chaos gods came later, so Aenarion could in no way be linked with Slannesh. Could be wrong on that one though...

According to the 5th Ed High Elf book Aenarion rescued Morathi from "a band of Slaanish worshippers" and it later suggests that Morathi might have been tainted during that time (something I'd have to agree with).

But there's no indication in that book that Aenarion was tainted by Chaos, more that his amplified bloodlust (through possessing the Widowmaker) made him more inclined towards darker actions.

[Playa23]

I think that if Aenarion survived the the battle against chaos the possibility that there could still be a Sundering is sound. Surely Morathi could still have created the pleasure cults on the sly? Push come to shove, would he have stayed loyal to Asur in the general sense or partnered with Morathi in a similar way to Malekith? With persuasion, Morathi does seem like an individual that would be able to corrupt Aenarion to the same extent that Malekith was. Thanks

[Malekii]

I reckon that if Aenareon had survived Morathi wouldn't have been much of an influence in Malekiths life as Malekith seems a lot closer with his father than his mother.