Has our King become an ally of chaos?

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Endra divini
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Has our King become an ally of chaos?

Post by Endra divini »

Greetings everyone.
I was curious ever since I read Malekiths fluff after he escaped the Aethyr he has conspired and plot seers and daemons. Could this possibly mean that our king has now become an associate of chaos? Not to mention the business with Nakai.
It could be possible since we all know of what our beloved hag Morathi gets up to.

Also a side question. Does anyone know if Malekith knows of Morathis worshiping slaanesh and the ruling of the cult of pleasure?

cheers.
Last edited by Endra divini on Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kinslayer »

Well only Malekith, and perhaps Morathi to some extent, knows what sort of foul promises he had to make to claw his way back from the Realm of Chaos. You need to ask yourself if you think Malekith would have rather sworn himself to Chaos to escape, or to be dammed there forever. I reckon he probably made some daemonic pacts and handed over the souls of millions of Druchii, but I very much doubt he turned to Chaos himself.
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Re: Has our King become an ally of chaos?

Post by Sulla »

Endra Divini wrote:Also a side question. Does anyone know if Malekith knows of Morathis worshiping slaanesh and the ruling of the cult of pleasure?

cheers.
What makes you sure Morathi worships Slaanesh? She's a schemer and a user. The only thing she worships is power.

Similarly, what do you mean by 'associate of chaos'? Pretty sure they don't run a business together, but if their goals are aligned they can work together, although it usually falls apart pretty quickly.
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Re: Has our King become an ally of chaos?

Post by Endra divini »

sulla wrote:
Endra Divini wrote:Also a side question. Does anyone know if Malekith knows of Morathis worshiping slaanesh and the ruling of the cult of pleasure?

cheers.
What makes you sure Morathi worships Slaanesh? She's a schemer and a user. The only thing she worships is power.

Similarly, what do you mean by 'associate of chaos'? Pretty sure they don't run a business together, but if their goals are aligned they can work together, although it usually falls apart pretty quickly.


I mean do they ally with chaos commonly.
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Post by Drainial »

Well they invaded Ulthuan together, both have used daemons in the past (though that may have been erased as so much of the best background has been) and Malekith did... something, to get the Hung hordes to retreat during the Druchii's first year in Naggaroth after the sundering. So certainly there have been instances of co-operation, and when dealing with gods it usualy turns out that co-operation is just doing what they wanted you to do and loosing your soul into the bargin. On the other hand both Maly and his mummy are a fair bit craftier than most mere mortals so maybe they found a way to deal with the Chaos gods without loosing their souls. It doesn't seem likely to me but there you go. In my opinion (and it is only that) Malekith probobly doesn't think of himself as a servent of chaos or as being anything other than its master, but deep down he is bouncing on a string just like everyone else.
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Re: Has our King become an ally of chaos?

Post by Weenth »

Endra Divini wrote:I was curious ever since I read Malekiths fluff after he escaped the Aethyr he has conspired and plot seers and daemons. Could this possibly mean that our king has now become an associate of chaos? Not to mention the business with Nakai.
It could be possible since we all know of what our beloved hag Morathi gets up to.
I haven't read Malekith, so I'm not entirely sure what's given there, but AFAIK the current line is that DE (including their leaders) don't worship Chaos, don't ally with Chaos, although they use Chaos (which, when going into larger scale event - like former invasion on Ulthuan, could be considered as alliance of sort, I think... although I'd except both sides of this alliance to view the other as the tool rather than partner).

Endra Divini wrote:Also a side question. Does anyone know if Malekith knows of Morathis worshiping slaanesh and the ruling of the cult of pleasure
I'd say - yes. He definitly knows about it if you take Storm of Chaos into account (something that GW still seems to try to erase). He also must have known about her involvment in Cult(s) of Pleasure back before Sundering, as he first 'imprisoned' her under such accusation, and later fought together with her and cultists against other elves. (wether Cults of Pleasure have/had anything to do with Slaanesh is another thing - again GW tries to erase earlier fluff).

Another thing is, even going by earlier fluff, wether Morathi indeed _worships_ Slaanesh. I'd say she has a pact with him, but is too cunning and proud to fall into path of becoming slave to Chaos (not that she would mind pushing her cultists into that, for her own gain ;) ).
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Re: Has our King become an ally of chaos?

Post by Camaris »

Endra Divini wrote:Greetings everyone.
Also a side question. Does anyone know if Malekith knows of Morathis worshiping slaanesh and the ruling of the cult of pleasure?

cheers.


In the druchii 6th ed book, there is a story, where Morathi speaks to Malekith of pacts she has made with slaanesh, so I would say the answer to your question is 'yes.' However, I would agree with others who say that they aren't servants of chaos, but just see chaos as another tool to be used to achieve their ends. After all, wasn't it Malekith who outlawed the slaanesh cults and made Khaine worship the major religion?
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Post by Masked jackal »

All Malekith and Morathi are after is their own profit, revenge, etc. as others have said. They'd make pacts with Chaos, but never fully give themselves to Chaos.
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Post by Drainial »

Not willingly, but what is the full mesure of a man? Or elf?
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Post by Masked jackal »

It is possible that, however manipulative they are, they've gotten into some tricky deals, especially with what happened to Malekith, but become a true servant? Never.
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Post by Nightblade183 »

Pretty sure the Chaos gods that Malekith and Morathi do have pacts with think they've got Malekith and Morathi in their puppet strings. But I'm sure Malekith and Morathi have a few secrets up their sleeves to get them out of what ever deals they are "committed" to. Malekith is just too crafty to ever give up his throne, his power or his mortal being. I'm pretty sure Malekith is perfectly content to let the Chaos Gods and his mommy think that they are controlling him, doing what they want because he also benefits. Yet I think he's craftier than all of them and is actually manipulating them.
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Post by Masked jackal »

Nightblade183 wrote:Pretty sure the Chaos gods that Malekith and Morathi do have pacts with think they've got Malekith and Morathi in their puppet strings. But I'm sure Malekith and Morathi have a few secrets up their sleeves to get them out of what ever deals they are "committed" to. Malekith is just too crafty to ever give up his throne, his power or his mortal being. I'm pretty sure Malekith is perfectly content to let the Chaos Gods and his mommy think that they are controlling him, doing what they want because he also benefits. Yet I think he's craftier than all of them and is actually manipulating them.

Basically what I was thinking, thanks.
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Post by Drainial »

Tzeentch can see every possible future and Slaanesh (through the keeper of secrets) knows every secret ever kept. It doesn't matter how cleaver a mortal you are when you are matching your self up with gods.
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Post by Geordie druchii »

The true extent of the bargains they (malekith and morathi) have made with the chaos gods will probably never be truly known to others other than themselves and the chaos gods.

No matter what tricks and schemes that Malekith and Morathi are planning I think that eventually the chaos gods will have the final say in the end, because I think M & M's arrogance and to some extent ignorance of believing that they are to some extent controlling or using chaos will probably be their own undoing.
But before the chaos gods get the better of them I reckon they will be more than happy to take the rest of the warhammer world with them :twisted:

The power of the Chaos Gods is too great to out-scheme.

But yeah I think they are definetly associated with chaos just they will be believe themselves greater than the gods and that they will escape whatever twisted fate the gods have planned for them
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Post by Svarthofthi »

I'd say its more along the lines of the radical inquisitor situation. Using chaos against chaos and even then its sparingly used. Lots of hints that Morathi worships Slannesh or some such but in the grand scheme of things it would appear, to me, that they get by more on their skill and armaments than allying with the ruinous powers.

As someone said earlier. It seems to me, that they'll use the chaos gods when their goals align. Not fall pawns to the gods. In due time, however, this could certainly change. Up til now though, I'm not convinced.

Also, are you saying Malekith couldn't crawl back to reality on his own? I mean... the guy is immensely stubborn, strong, violent, and all manner of malevolence. I bet you he punched out the daemon who wouldn't tell him how to leave.
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Post by Drainial »

There are more than hints, I know the background has changed somewhat of late but I certainly still remember the Storm of Chaos and Moraithy leading an army of Slaaneshii daemons and Slaanesh worshiping chaos mortals.
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Post by Dalamar »

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Post by Dafedge »

Not sure which side this makes the debate swing, but the 8th edition states that the Dark Elves are allied with the armies of destruction, but are regarded as too untrustworthy to form any strong alliances. This would seem to indicate that even if they have made pacts with the gods of Chaos, even they don't trust the elves enough to ally with them.
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Post by Mr. anderson »

The (sad) truth is that the Dark Elves are not much more than tools for the chaos gods, even if they are arrogant enough to believe otherwise. If it wasn't for the constant dark elf invasions into both Lustria and Ulthuan, the Lizardmen and the High Elves could devote much more effort to fighting chaos. Don't forget that it was Morathi who raised Malekith, yet she herself had been captive of chaos for a while (long enough, I assume, for Slaanesh and/or Tzeentch to plant some ideas in her head - even though she herself might think they're her ideas and ambitions).

And then it was Morathi who quite possibly had a hand in the direction that Aenarion's court turned, which was related to the rising mistrust towards the elves of Nagarythe by all the other elves. This was also at least one of the reasons, one can presume, that Malekith was passed over when it came to electing the next Phoenix King.

Without Morathi, Malekith might have gotten over that, but with her, no chance. Then Malekith firstly weakened the high elves with his war, and afterwards destroyed the alliance between elves and dwarves, and now he constantly messes with the efforts of those armies to fight chaos.

Put all this together, and it's hard to see Malekith as anything other than a tool of the Chaos Gods, directly or indirectly. Without him, Chaos would be facing a very strong alliance of Humans, Elves and Dwarves that might very well be impossible to defeat.

But, if the Druchii have doomed themselves forever, they may as well have some fun before the end - what else is there? :twisted:

Although I have to say that Malekith, smart though he may be, is probably one of the biggest buffoons in the history of the warhammer world, along with Morathi, thinking they can somehow use the chaos gods for their own purpose...

The real question is, what would Mister oh so smart Malekith do if he overthrew the High elves, destroyed the magical vortex and got swamped by Daemons? I'd like to see him bargain his way outta that one. His mummy probably won't be much help then...
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Post by Drainial »

Well for a start he probably wouldn't destroy the vortex since that was a last gasp gambit when it became clear that he was about to lose the civil war. Besides the pre vortex magi are still in there and they are more powerful than anyone in the present world as the sundering made painful clear.

I would also say that the lizard men armies don't really do much to combat chaos, only the Slaan do that through their manipulation and preservation of the lay lines. If anything the dark elves probably do the lizards a favour by separating them from the southern wastes even if a few raids every now and then makes the pill a little bitter.
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Post by Mr. anderson »

Well for a start he probably wouldn't destroy the vortex since that was a last gasp gambit when it became clear that he was about to lose the civil war. Besides the pre vortex magi are still in there and they are more powerful than anyone in the present world as the sundering made painful clear.


Maybe he wouldn't, but either way I'm sure the Dark Elves wouldn't put anywhere near as much effort (if any) into helping the empire against chaos invasions as the High Elves do - and if the empire falls to chaos, the rest of the world will too, eventually.

I would also say that the lizard men armies don't really do much to combat chaos


Mainly, I would say, because they have their hands full with vampire pirates, orks and dark elves all wanting the shiny things they're sitting on. If the dark elves weren't there, they'd be free to launch invasions into the chaos wastes seeing as they wouldn't be bothered by dark elves. I don't know if they would, but seeing as it is their role to keep chaos at bay, I don't see why not. And seeing as the dark elves are killing slann faster than they can regrow (if they do - and I think I remember something about subsequent slanns being less powerful with each generation), they're not exactly helping.
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Post by Silic »

Yes, they are tools and nothing more. Corrupted and no longer the ideal of the elven race.

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Post by Cambell »

I tend too think the notion of Chaos Gods is arguably embedded in Elven culture predating most historical events before Malekith and his 'allying' with them. It was about striking a balance, between the Gods of the Heavens (the Cadai) and the Gods of the Underworld (the Cytharai) 8th Edi. pg14. But this balance was corrupted long before it became so, the Schism and the murder of Bel Shanaar. Another important element of these Gods are themes.

What difference essentially is there in substance between say Khaine the God of Murder and a Chaos God? Both are based upon destruction and harm.

Extending this thought further, couldn't it be also argued that the only difference between the Chaos Gods worshipped by men and those worshipped by the Druchii differ only in name because in effect they are the same or at least have the same end goal in mind: the destruction of the world in the name of the Gods?
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Post by The virgin forest »

Well, duh!

The dark elves used to a part of the chaos lists ;)
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Post by Drainial »

Cambell wrote: What difference essentially is there in substance between say Khaine the God of Murder and a Chaos God? Both are based upon destruction and harm.



The difference is one of scale, the chaos gods feed of all emotion while the gods of various nations have a much narrower selection which obviously makes them less powerful and far more tailored to the desires and needs of the people they are dependent on.
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