Avatar of khaine in fantasy???

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Avatar of khaine in fantasy???

Post by Tenacious »

Could there be one? Dark elves do worship khaine and all?

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Post by Drainial »

In the 40k sense no; the eldar avatars were created when Khaine was 'killed' whilst battling either Slaanesh or the Nightbringer (I have read it both ways and am not sure what GW official stance is). Rather than being destroyed outright the god split into many fragments which became the avatars.

In fantasy none of that happened, Khaine is very much a living god and one who helps his worshipers quite actively (through the cauldrons of blood most obviously).

There have been ideas on the site before about an elf being an avatar of Khaine in the sense that the Asri Ariel is an avatar of Isha. That was many many moons ago, probably years ago but will still be in the ideas forum if you are interested.

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=49608

None of this is any sense official though.
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Post by Overmind »

The Avatars of Khaine were made fighting Slaanesh(he was weakend by the Nightbringer, but won if memory serves).

And, in that sense, no it doesn't work in fantasy. Although we might be getting giant metal statues of Khaine looking at the fluff in the BRB.

The only Fantasy canon avatar of Khaine I know of was Aenarion who was also the avatar of Asuryan(talk about two masters...).
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Post by Kuanor »

Except if you consider the “fantasy is a planet in 40k” theory.
Khaine has even in 40k enough power to support the Eldar at war, and I don’t mean only his walking statue, so there is no reason why not to worship him in fantasy even if he is defeated by Slaanesh.
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Post by Drainial »

Exept for the fact that fantasy is not a planet in 40k. It is not a theory it is redundant background. It used to be that way and now it is not. No it doesn't make any sense and yes it was better the way it was but it is GW's game and they get to control the official background. 40k and fantasy have no connection despite their many many connections.
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Post by Overmind »

The Fantasy is a Planet in 40K theory is as dead as the Starchild, if not more so.

I disagree with the it was better that way, I like it better exasperated, but that's opinion at that level.

As for Khaine supporting the Eldar at war, other than his walking statue it is just a residue of the Eldar psyche resonating to the idea of him, wiht Eldar it is hard if not impossible to actually kill any of their gods, as the thoughts of Isha still heal them, and the ideals of Asuryan still guide them. It's confusing but their gods cannot really die unless their minds drastically change(example-Dark Eldar).
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Post by Kuanor »

I know that the concept is out of date but many things can be explained by looking at the warp and it’s creatures as common between both systems. That it’s even for GW not as dead as it officially seems to be can be seen regarding things like the power fist we had (not very new either but you see what I mean).
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Post by Fingol23 »

There are mentions of walking Iron statues in Dark Elf arms in the fluff section of the new rulebook
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Post by Overmind »

Kuanor wrote:I know that the concept is out of date but many things can be explained by looking at the warp and it’s creatures as common between both systems. That it’s even for GW not as dead as it officially seems to be can be seen regarding things like the power fist we had (not very new either but you see what I mean).


Same names, different entities. GW has officially declared the two entirely separate.
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Post by Kuanor »

Your comment should be answered by the quote you just made.
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Post by Overmind »

The power fist is an event to be laughed at, and has since been removed for good reason, but the point is made.

Despite the similar names, despite everything else, despite how much sense it may/may not make, they are different. Nothing can be gained from viewing the warp and it's denizens in common because they are not in common. The explanations you find as logical as they are, are false be definition.

Does that help with my previous post. I can see the connections as well, but to attempt to do so, is false. So nothing can be explained by looking at them as together.
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Post by Kuanor »

Someone once said they have nothing in common and that’s a dogma now “despite everything” – yes, I see your point.
The other point is that they were conceived as together once, later declared as different (probably to avoid silly questions) and still the designers don’t take this separation too serious (for example making events to be laughing at). So why should I?
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Post by Overmind »

If you don't wish to that's your prerogative, however as in answers of anything official or cannon they must be viewed as separate, and to give answers based on your own opinion to someone else without prefacing it is at least in my opinion wrong. My only issue with your statements is that you're attempting to answer someone else's question with your opinion despite the facts such as they are directly contradicting that.

And the developers certainly seem to take the separation seriously for now, whether that will change remains to be seen.

However, at this point the discussion is just us, and the original question is answered, so perhaps we should just call it here. We both seem to get each other's points.
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Post by Kuanor »

In this case it was prefaced with “considering the theory”. Not enough?
It is well known that this ‘theory’ is non more canon, I had no better word for it.

I’m not sure how seriously the developers take this separation even now, but if there is a chance that it’s not that seriously (and it is), it is helpful to have the connection between both systems in mind for a proper interpretation/understanding of for example something someone of the “not-that-seriously”-faction writes.
It’s not only about my point of view or a kind of personal non-canon fluff. It really is useful.
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Post by Overmind »

In what manner might it be construed as useful? Once again anything from another area must be discarded, so I fail to see how it could be useful.

Even ignoring that, where could you find a use for that?
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Post by Kuanor »

In the way I wrote it here it helps to understand what an author thought, if he knows both systems. The separation doesn’t mean that everything written after it’s introducing has to be different by all means. Mainly it means “if something is different, it’s still all right so don’t ask” or at least this is how it seems to me.

This topic here is a good example itself:
The stuff with gods, warp etc. was written before the separation. So independently of what was declared later the gods the Asur and Druchii worship were already “dead” by Eldar mythology. So during the time they were invented the authors must have considered the possibility that they are either not that dead as the Eldar think or that their remaining power is strong enough not to let the Asur notice their defeat. Or that the happening in the Warhammer world takes place in an other time, i.e. before the Fall of the Eldar.
Since the two systems not always have been separated there must have been answers to this question to an earlier time, and by knowing them we can decide if there could have been Khaine Avatars in den Warhammer world or not.
And if they could, they still can. You can see on Storm of Magic that old fluff is not being forgotten.
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Post by Overmind »

Except for the fact it would be a major change in fluff whereas the stuff in storm is all things that have continued being mentioned. We will probably never see an "Avatar of Khaine" as a literal shard of the dead god.

Hell the Elven gods between the two are very different, especially right now with most of the darker ones missing from the pantheon. They have differing aspects, personality's, and the two groups have different members even.

As for the period in which the warhammer world is in comparison to 40k, back when they were together(which they aren't at all, just to say ti again), Sigmar was meant to be a fallen and lost primarch from one of the Legions that were absorbed in the Ultramarines and had their records expunged. But yeah that one is long gone.

So looking back in fluff time, yes. Now? No way in all that is befouled. It would be like bringing back the squats, and no not the deimurg, the actual squats.

However, is it possible we get big metal statues filled with Khaine's foul blessings? It's actually likely looking at the fluff we have from the main rulebook. They might even be called Avatar's of Khaine, but fluffwise they will be very different.

*takes off old fluff hat*

Why do those things always look like chaos dwarf hats?
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Post by Kuanor »

A major Fluff change? Not really, just the confessing that the fluff belongs together and that the Warhammer world is happening after the Fall. The separation or not separation never was a major fluff detail. A minor one maybe. Before the separation the two worlds’ belonging together were, afaik, only hints. Sigmar as a Primarch of one of the two lost legions only a theory.
Bringing back the squats would not be a major fluff change either, you just had to say that some colonies of them survived the tyranid attack and rebuilt a piece of their civilization.

The new Druchii gods, for comparison, are a more major fluff change, that happened because Gav felt like the Druchii deserve more proper gods for a moment. And even this change is not really bad made: New but not contradictory to the established fluff.

To come back to the topic, of course there will be no shards of a Khaine defeated by Slaanesh. But there might be demonic statues found somewhere no one ever been before, filled with the essence of Khaine and awaken through sacrifice but with no elf knows where they come from.
For those who find the statement of separation the most important part in the fluff at all, these statues will of course have “nothing to do with 40k at all and with avatars at most!” but for the rest of the people they will just be another… erm… “event to be laughing at”.
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Post by Overmind »

Main Rulebook pg 208 wrote:Using stranger sorceries still, Malekith has learned to imbue the armoured steel giants with the souls of killers, creating fell embodiments of Khaine that carve through the ranks of those born of flesh and blood


So ignoring the idea that the fluff belongs together, a thing you and I seem to vehemently disagree with. The idea of metal statues of Khaine has been addressed fluffwise and confirmed to exist. As I've said in post one and probably mentioned in every other one on this thread.

Nope, not avatar's of Khaine either go figure. just animated statues with the souls of murderer's bound to them. Different enough for me.

And actually the constant 'they are all dead' thing would make me annoyed if they pulled that BS with the squats you just said.
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Post by Drainial »

GW has no problem with bringing back dead people, usualy they don't even give a reason. Eltharian is the usal case in point.
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Post by Overmind »

I so loathe him, but yeah yeah. And they are technically bringing the squats back, just under a different name and allied with the Tau supposedly.
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Post by Kuanor »

I only gave an example of how the “steel statues” could came out as the avatars we know from 40k. Since you actually need some kind of soul – could be as a host – for them, yet it does not contradict. We cannot tell anyway until we know more about their origins, the awakening mechanics and the appearance than given in the rulebook.
Last edited by Kuanor on Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Overmind »

Oh I know. I just think you're wrong. Very. But then again I hate the idea of the universes together as at least for me it creates more issue than it solves by a great deal.
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Post by Kinslayer »

I think the main problem GW would have with saying the Warhammer World is a planet in the 40k universe, is that at some point in the grim darkness of the far future, the Warhammer World would have to be eaten by Tyranids.

And no more Warhammer World would lose GW a lot of money ;)

Oh, and Sigmar was not the lost Primarch (he was born of human parents, read "Sigmar")
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Post by Kuanor »

@ overmind:
I don’t know… It seems somehow difficult to be wrong – especially very – if you don’t claim one theory as the only thinkable of.
In the opposite case, however, it’s even simpler to be wrong. But it’s equally as simple to stay at it if let you guide by hating specific ideas.

@ Kinslayer:
If the world will be eaten some thousands of years after it is destroyed by chaos it should not be a that big problem. ;)
I think it’s left this way for more freedom and to avoid some discontinuities.
Last edited by Kuanor on Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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