Lore friggin(word is many times repeated as I don't know the

[Carathyle maveric]

Me, and a couple of my warhammer friends, are having a discussion about lore friggin.

This particular "lore ...(don't know a different word for it)" includes: Dark Elves, Skaven and High Elves. The lore that is being toyed with is the High Elf lore, which he defends with every thing he has.

My statement:
"Your lore states that the druchii have been forced OFF of Ulthuan. So does mine, yet mine goes a little bit further in from the perspective of the Dark Elves. So, you might call "inventing an compleet underground city IN/ON Ulthuan" Lore friggin, yet I call it, lore expantion. Your lore is based around the High Elves, mine around the dark elves. Your lore includes High Elves attacking Naggaroth, mine includes Dark Elves being IN/ON Ulthuan."

His defence:
"My lore claims that there aren't any Druchii or Skaven on Ulthuan. There is no way they can enter Ulthuan."

Skaven Player:
"My lore states that there actually IS a clan living on Ulthuan Grounds, well under Ulthuan grounds."

High Elf Player:
"That is impossible, we have a defencive circle around Ulthuan, nobody can get onto Ulthuan. It can't even be found!"

Ogre player:
"His lore(skaven player) tells us that there is a clan underneath Ulthuan. Your lore doesn't include this as you don't know this. Now his lore(me) states that there are Dark Elves on Ulthuan, which can be a large enough amount to build compleet cities. His 'lore frig' is build against the very edge of your lore, and his own lore. The high elves, according to yours and his lore, aren't aware of this so he can say that they have build an entire city underneath the Ulthuan grounds."

So, I wanted your opinion on this as I was thinking, hey, why not? It's Dark elves that are involved.

Just to warn you, this IS based upon events that are happening in an RPG here on Druchii.net.

Another point:
Me:
"I let my character infiltrate a group of Phoenix Guards. They are elves, they are not supernatural, so it is no lore frig."

Before I spoil the fun of letting you guess for the answer on this last one, I'll let you reply. ^_^

- Carathyle Maveric

p.s: I saw that the words are conerted into Frig.

[Dalamar]

The Underempire spans the entire world, going from the Old World all the way to Lustria.

There are Skaven under Ulthuan, one problem being they have no way out onto the actual island. For whatever reasons (call it magic) the Skaven were never able to tunnel to Ulthuan's Surface.

Only race other than elves (of any kind) that ever set foot on Ulthuan's soil are greenskins under Grom the Paunch... and that's by accident. (Demons are not a race)

Is there a Druchii city under Ulthuan? Hell, why not? But to what point? Druchii are sailors and pirates, not diggers. Skaven were unable to get to Ulthuan and they ARE diggers. Possible alliance between the Skaven and Druchii would perhaps uncover something new. But look into alliances in the BRB. Both Skaven and Druchii are "Suspicious Allies". No alliance of such nature lasts very long. Definitely not long enough to unravel Asur defenses.

You let your character infiltrate Phoenix Guard... Well, it's a really bad infiltration because they know and for some reason let him live. Phoenix Guard know the future, do you think a detail like someone infiltrating their ranks (and struggling really hard to be mute) would elude them?

I believe the word you're looking for is lore infringement (like copyright infringement)

[Krau27]

The Underempire spans the entire world, going from the Old World all the way to Lustria.

There are Skaven under Ulthuan, one problem being they have no way out onto the actual island. For whatever reasons (call it magic) the Skaven were never able to tunnel to Ulthuan's Surface.

This can easily be explained with magic, if the HE ultra-super-turbo-spell-tosser cast a spell that "lets no foe of this world set foot on Ulthuan", taken literally this means that no worldly foe can be ON Ulthuan, thus in a loop-hole the skaven can be under it cause technicly they are not on Ulthuan. Also daemons are otherworldly so they are negated from this rule.

now with the DE they could fall underneath the skaven loop-hole if they are under the surface, but if that is not plausible, Nagarythe is technically underneath the waves, but who’s to say that it is COMPLETLY underwater. Nagarythe is not like kansas,aka flatter than a pancake, so there were/are mountains on it they could sill be sticking up from underneath the waves, so it went from an island to an archipelago which may or may not be home to small pockets of DE inhabitants. This last statement could be backed up with the sailor/raider philosophy of the DE and they could raid/fish for supplies.

Now onto the big question, the infiltration of the Phoenix guard. This is HIGHLY improbable seeing as their royal guard of the HE Leader so a screening or so would logically have to happen. Though it is improbable not impossible, seeing as DE and HE are essentially the same minus a few minute differences (hair, i believe eyes, etc) and if i may reference one of the Dark Malus books, they (Malus and His crew) DID sneak into a HE Fort/Small town by disguising themselves as some Sea Guard, it was only spoiled when i believe Malus looked up and one of the guards saw that his eyes were different and thus the rouse was ruined and a fight broke out, but i digress. So using that logic and seeing that Malus and Company were amateurs in the art of disguise, if one or several Highly Trained Assassins/Spies were to outfit themselves with the proper equipment and disguises and use either magic/contacts/some other means, to disguise their eyes and a dye/magic for their hair they could potentially pull it off, same goes for a HE infiltrating DE nobility and such.

So in short.
1. Skaven= Yes they can be on Ulthuan using Loop-hole logic.
2. DE could be on Ulthuan via Nagarythe Archipelago or Abandoned/Taken over/Paying Rent, having a Timeshare, or something in a Underground Skaven city, again using Skaven Loophole logic/ Mountain Logic
3. DE could Potentially infiltrate Phoenix Guard Ranks, though highly improbable, using magic/super assassin/spy tricks.

[Carathyle maveric]

You let your character infiltrate Phoenix Guard... Well, it's a really bad infiltration because they know and for some reason let him live. Phoenix Guard know the future, do you think a detail like someone infiltrating their ranks (and struggling really hard to be mute) would elude them?

First of all, your reaction is near spot on! However, this is what the High Elf player stated:
"According to my lore, Pheonix Guard know the future. When they make their enchanted armour, they must go to the temple of Vaul to forge it themselves. Here they get to read their lives, and how they will die. Here is where they silenced."

me:
"It's called daemons! They are easily bribed with a couple of sacrifices. Besides, in my lore, it litteraly stated that 'Morathi and her Dark Covent used magic to protect their armies from the harsh cold of Nagarythii.' I continued on this part, what if he could enchant himself, or get enchanted by the daemon of change, to be disguised into an High Elf. The armour would be taken from a dead Pheonix guard."

Him:
"They can see through magic!(don't ask me how) That won't work on them!
The pheonix guards armor dies with them! they are enchanted in the Temple of Vaul that as soon as they die, their armour melts with them."

Ogre Player:
"Yes, but he could have requested someone to despell the enchantment, or he despells it himself."

High Elf player:
"That isn't possible as Asuryan is the strongest High Elf God. Khaine can't despell his magic. Nor can any of the daemons."

I believe the word you're looking for is lore infringement (like copyright infringement)

I think infringement isn't appropriate for this as it isn't actually any of the copyrighted content. It's finding loopholes in lores and thinking of something around them to make use of these little facts. Most likely to the disliking/disadvantage of the other person's lore

[Drainial]

First off just to clarify the Phoenix Guard are not the guards of the Phoenix king, that dubious honour goes to the white lions. They are the guardians of the shrine of Asuryian and do religious stuff showing up at battles for their own reasons which they are unable to explain to anyone. As for infiltrating them looking like them would be easy enough, DE and HE are almost identical and there are no hard and fast rules on what the differences are anymore than you can tell a Frenchman and Scandinavian apart with 100% accuracy based only on looks, especially if said Scandinavian is a master of disguise. In Malus' case it is a little different since after some temple shenanigans his eyes are bronze.

The trouble is in the Phoenix guards' ability to see their own personal futures, now this may well cause some difficulty. A Phoenix guard may be able to have seen that they will find an imposter and therefore because of that they will find an imposter, it as a self fulfilling prophecy and a paradox. As it is a paradox I am not going to try and solve it (since you can't). Of course there are other ways, all PG know the time, place and manner of their death in advance so if whilst infiltrating you killed one of them that individual would know that it was going to happen. I am unclear as to whether they are able to communicate with one another but I think it is best to assume that they can.

With all this in mind I think that only by some very powerful magic indeed could it become feasible, the dark elves do have mages that may be powerful enough to cause a glitch in the system; Moraithi, Furian, Malekith himself and maybe the heads of the convents. It would however be chancy and insanely difficult. Looking like an Asur on the other hand is easy and has been done many many times, look at the story of Girithion for example.

On the getting into Ulthuan your friend is mistaken, Ulthuan is no longer clouded in mists, they were removed by Finubar so that trade could commence, there are perpetually traders from other races in Lotheren, though they are not allowed to stray. There are stories abound of Druchii raids onto the shores of Ulthuan taking prisoners and destroying settlements leaving aside the invasions. Then there was Grom the Paunch and a mad Norscan who landed (though that really didn't end well for him).

Frankly there are plenty of people in the empire who don't believe Skaven exist at all. If there are tunnels under Ulthuan but no major settlement or efforts there it is wholly possible for the Asur to be ignorant of them and to dismiss any sightings in the same way that those who claim to see big foot are ridiculed and ignored today. That said I do believe I have read somewhere that the only place where the tunnels do not run are Ulthuan and the Chaos wastes (they kept loosing vast armies there).