To be honest I am getting really tired of all the retcons I see in Warhammer world lately. Here is an example of how warhammer history used to look like:
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-13090/stories/history.html
I am not stupid, I understand that the job of GW is to make money and I know that most players do not care about lore that much, but I still think that lore-obsessed nerds like me have a certain value. I do not ask for much. There are countless people willing to work on warhammer story and thus GW has amny extremely talented people who can write for them BL and ABs. Thats why I jus dont understand why is it so much to ask to have authors of ABS check basic facts about things they mention.
The greatest problem is elven mythology. In one AB they claim that Isha is daughter of Lileath and Asuryan, in other they claim Isha is wife of Asuryan and in third Isha is wife of Kurnous...
This is quite important because once they claim Elves are born from Isha and Asuryan ( as to explain religion of HE ) and then shamelessly pretend Elves were born from Isha and Kurnous ( in order to explain religion of WE ).
Am I childish when it angers me? Perhaps. But I just dont like painting my army as cool Khainaties who rebel against Chaos only to find out that they are probably just fools fooled by the most stupid god ever ( Khorne ) when i read next AB.
I also dont like buying all those models of Slaanesh only to have them outlawed from DE army later, then buy new DE AB with the most shameless stupid absurd retcons ever and learn that Elves never worshipped Slaanesh.
When it comes to BL its all even worse of course, one author has managed to mysteriously heal Eltharion from his blindness and bring his Griffon back to life ( between Cold Hand of the Betrayer and Sons of Ellyrion ).
I think that Warhammer World has produced truly epic stories and BL novels of high quality. These facts however prevent Warhammer world from creating really deep sense and messages. The example of Bioware Dragon Age clearly shows that fantasy can match the depth and wisdom of Classic literature. In Dragon Age we could experience the cruel fates of slaves, homosexuals and pagans as Elves, mages and secondary citizens. In Dragon Age they also managed to create sensible fluff despite almost endless possibilities of previous choices by players.
GW on the other hand has to constantly come up with ,,pocket universes", retcons, deus ex machina and time setbacks. It is only a matter of time before they cling to sume dump desperate solutions like time travel with Tzeentch ( our dear Blizzard is already using this ,,Bronze Dragonflight and Kaels merelysetback " every month).
I read Gav Thorpes honest answer about many people in GW hating SoC and wanting to pretend it never existed and I try to understand them. I try to admit that the new DE AB alows every player to paint his/her army as Slaaneshi Athartists without forcing other players into seeing something as controversial as Chaos Elves. I accept his vision of delusional DE fluff commoners and DE real players unknowingly serving Chaos. But did he really had to create Ereth Khial so absurdly similar to Morai Heg without explaining their relationship? Did he really have rewrite CANON ABs and pretend that word Slaanesh was never used during Sundering? ( and I am not even gonna start about that wretched romance between Lileath and Kurnous which ruined any chance for sensible explaining of elven mythology).
I see all these wonderful initiatives on druchii.net and I wonder if maybe we could persuade GW to publish family tree of elven gods for Warhammer Fantasy so nerds like me could finally write fluff for their army without rewriting it every third year.
How long would writing down such canon information take for one author? One week ?
Retcons and elven pantheon
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Archon_matt
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Am I childish when it angers me? Perhaps. But I just dont like painting my army as cool Khainaties who rebel against Chaos only to find out that they are probably just fools fooled by the most stupid god ever ( Khorne ) when i read next AB.
^ This. I don't want our Elves to become another faction of Chaos like Beastmen, Warriors or Daemons.
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Thinking about the internal narrative for Dark Elves I always prefer to imagine something a bit more complex than comes through from the stories from the army book. Essentially using what comes through from the official fluff as a framework and thinking about how a similarly modelled society from the real world would function, simply dismissing the elements from GW that don't make sense any sense.
I see the political structure of Dark Elf society as a lot like that of the Byzantine Empire at the height of its strength (under Basil II rather than Justinian). A despotic monarchy supported by a sophisticated administrative system (although administration gets little or no mention in official fluff). A society where noble houses hold most of the second tier of political power but where there is also a high degree of social mobility facilitated by service in the army; an army made up of citizen soldiers.
As to the Dark Elves themselves, you couldn't operate a society where everyone was irrationally cruel, constantly double crossing one another.
If you think of the events around the sundering as primarily a civil war between the House of Nagarythe and House of Caledor, then imagine the majority of individual elves participating as starting out as being essentially the same in character, you can account for the division in attitude when the Dark Elves fled to Naggaroth.
There is a hint of this in the background sections of the current army book but I imagine Dark Elf society as becoming more fatalistic and darwinian as a result of having moved from a paradise like homeland to having to struggle day by day to survive in a harsh and unforgiving wilderness.
What could be seen by outsiders as cruelty or callousness could in fact merely be an acceptance of the fact that life is cruel and unyielding and what must be must be.
You could argue Dark Elves practice mass slavery simply as a purely objective answer to their society's requirements:
If you are in desperate need of labourers you take them from somewhere else; if the people you are taking them from are too weak to defend themselves, well hard lines for them.
Something I also bear in mind is that there is plenty from the official fluff to suggest that a High Elf is capable of failings of character such as selfishness, arrogance, cruelty. Wouldn't it be possible to infer that Dark Elves can be capable of what we would identify as virtues such as compassion or selflessness?
With regards to the starting point of the thread, I imagine the the three elf factions as essentially having the same pantheon just with emphasis on different gods.
The High Elf pantheon centres on Asuryan
The Wood Elf on Kurnous
The Dark Elf on Khaine
The differences in specific religious canon could be explained by looking at the distinctions between, lets say Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant interpretations of Christianity. It is perfectly possible that the three different elven factions might have evolved entirely distinct sets of myths a legends relating to what began as the same gods.
Apologies for going on so long there, I seem to have gotten carried away.
I suppose the point is that GW doesn't seem to put a whole lot of detailed thought into the internal narrative of the world they are creating. Should we expect them to? It would be nice, but what I would settle for is a reasonably convincing framework that people such as Sezax, and indeed myself, could project our imagination onto.
I see the political structure of Dark Elf society as a lot like that of the Byzantine Empire at the height of its strength (under Basil II rather than Justinian). A despotic monarchy supported by a sophisticated administrative system (although administration gets little or no mention in official fluff). A society where noble houses hold most of the second tier of political power but where there is also a high degree of social mobility facilitated by service in the army; an army made up of citizen soldiers.
As to the Dark Elves themselves, you couldn't operate a society where everyone was irrationally cruel, constantly double crossing one another.
If you think of the events around the sundering as primarily a civil war between the House of Nagarythe and House of Caledor, then imagine the majority of individual elves participating as starting out as being essentially the same in character, you can account for the division in attitude when the Dark Elves fled to Naggaroth.
There is a hint of this in the background sections of the current army book but I imagine Dark Elf society as becoming more fatalistic and darwinian as a result of having moved from a paradise like homeland to having to struggle day by day to survive in a harsh and unforgiving wilderness.
What could be seen by outsiders as cruelty or callousness could in fact merely be an acceptance of the fact that life is cruel and unyielding and what must be must be.
You could argue Dark Elves practice mass slavery simply as a purely objective answer to their society's requirements:
If you are in desperate need of labourers you take them from somewhere else; if the people you are taking them from are too weak to defend themselves, well hard lines for them.
Something I also bear in mind is that there is plenty from the official fluff to suggest that a High Elf is capable of failings of character such as selfishness, arrogance, cruelty. Wouldn't it be possible to infer that Dark Elves can be capable of what we would identify as virtues such as compassion or selflessness?
With regards to the starting point of the thread, I imagine the the three elf factions as essentially having the same pantheon just with emphasis on different gods.
The High Elf pantheon centres on Asuryan
The Wood Elf on Kurnous
The Dark Elf on Khaine
The differences in specific religious canon could be explained by looking at the distinctions between, lets say Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant interpretations of Christianity. It is perfectly possible that the three different elven factions might have evolved entirely distinct sets of myths a legends relating to what began as the same gods.
Apologies for going on so long there, I seem to have gotten carried away.
I suppose the point is that GW doesn't seem to put a whole lot of detailed thought into the internal narrative of the world they are creating. Should we expect them to? It would be nice, but what I would settle for is a reasonably convincing framework that people such as Sezax, and indeed myself, could project our imagination onto.
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You could argue Dark Elves practice mass slavery simply as a purely objective answer to their society's requirements:
If you are in desperate need of labourers you take them from somewhere else; if the people you are taking them from are too weak to defend themselves, well hard lines for them.
Let's perhaps be a little careful about not putting forward justifications in defence of slavery as a general concept - even if they don't represent your own views... I don't think it is valid to ever say that slavery is a purely objective answer to any society's requirements.
I think your statement should, perhaps, be caveated with the idea that the Dark Elves take this option because they are a brutal, uncaring and ultimately twisted race. That makes the choice seem rational from their perspective, but it is definitely not a rational choice for races who aren't evil/twisted/cruel.
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That a supply of unpaid labourers is a really useful thing to have is precisely the reason why different societies throughout history have used forced labour.
We live in, from our own perspective, a particularly civilised age. People in years gone by found moral justifications for slavery, whether they were Spartans rounding up the populations they had defeated in war; or Europeans practising slavery on an industrial scale in North America. The Dark Elves would have to have a moral justification for their actions, it is just their moral code would be different from ours.
All societies need a code of morality in order to function. Essentially to keep people behaving as they are supposed to when no one else is looking. Indeed, the is the whole reason that religions evolve in different societies is to provide the moral framework to keep a society cohesive.
I suppose the main question to resolve when trying to imagine Dark Elf society is where they perceive the line between right and wrong to lie.
We live in, from our own perspective, a particularly civilised age. People in years gone by found moral justifications for slavery, whether they were Spartans rounding up the populations they had defeated in war; or Europeans practising slavery on an industrial scale in North America. The Dark Elves would have to have a moral justification for their actions, it is just their moral code would be different from ours.
All societies need a code of morality in order to function. Essentially to keep people behaving as they are supposed to when no one else is looking. Indeed, the is the whole reason that religions evolve in different societies is to provide the moral framework to keep a society cohesive.
I suppose the main question to resolve when trying to imagine Dark Elf society is where they perceive the line between right and wrong to lie.
Last edited by Sisstros on Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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*smacks forehead with exasperation*
So now slavery is only immoral if the society that practices it believes it to be so? I'm sure that many of the enslaved people's throughout history will be just thrilled to hear that.
I already suggested you be careful on this topic. I repeat that suggestion. You're on very dubious ground. Be smart, recognise that you erred, and get back on topic.
So now slavery is only immoral if the society that practices it believes it to be so? I'm sure that many of the enslaved people's throughout history will be just thrilled to hear that.
I already suggested you be careful on this topic. I repeat that suggestion. You're on very dubious ground. Be smart, recognise that you erred, and get back on topic.
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Red... wrote:*smacks forehead with exasperation*
So now slavery is only immoral if the society that practices it believes it to be so? I'm sure that many of the enslaved people's throughout history will be just thrilled to hear that.
Well, yes, essentially.
Future generations might perceive behaviour that you and I don't give a second thought to as morally objectionable.
Thinking of a trivial example from recent times: I only buy free range eggs at the supermarket but my grandparents wouldn't have thought twice about buying eggs from a battery hen.
Slavery was the pragmatic solution that that Spartans used for the main problem in their society. The problem being that in a society entirely made up of soldiers there was no one to farm or mine or do any of the other tedious jobs that need to be accomplished in order to feed and clothe the fighting population. The solution being to conquer their neighbours an turn them into a race of slaves, the Helots.
The other obvious answer to the problem is not having a society made up entirely of soldiers I suppose.
Anyway, the point is, you and I perceive the Spartan's behaviour as immoral. But you and I are not ancient Spartans. Just like you and I would perceive the Dark Elves as immoral but they wouldn't see themselves that way.
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Okay, so just to be clear, you are saying that slavery is not a universal wrong but depends on context? Cool.
Well, first off. Do some reading on the efficiency of slave labour. To cut a long story short, it's inefficient.
Second. Do some reading on international common law. To cut a long story short, some crimes such as genocide and crimes against humanity (which includes human trafficking - which includes slavery) are viewed as universally immoral and illegal and do not come under the category of varying morality. (And yes, this does apply back in time, that's how the Nazis were prosecuted at Nuremberg for a category of crime - genocide - which did not yet exist. It's also a central tenet of the U.N.)
Third. You have managed to back yourself into a position of saying that any action can be justified as moral based on the context. So presumably then mass genocide by regimes such as the Nazis or in Rwanda are morally okay because the Nazis and Hutus thought it was okay?
At best, your posts are showing that you are being naive. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is the reason behind your shockingly stupid posts. This is an incredibly sensitive issue, and frankly you need to treat it as such. Just because we are on a Dark Elf website, that doesn't give you the right to be obscene.
Well, first off. Do some reading on the efficiency of slave labour. To cut a long story short, it's inefficient.
Second. Do some reading on international common law. To cut a long story short, some crimes such as genocide and crimes against humanity (which includes human trafficking - which includes slavery) are viewed as universally immoral and illegal and do not come under the category of varying morality. (And yes, this does apply back in time, that's how the Nazis were prosecuted at Nuremberg for a category of crime - genocide - which did not yet exist. It's also a central tenet of the U.N.)
Third. You have managed to back yourself into a position of saying that any action can be justified as moral based on the context. So presumably then mass genocide by regimes such as the Nazis or in Rwanda are morally okay because the Nazis and Hutus thought it was okay?
At best, your posts are showing that you are being naive. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is the reason behind your shockingly stupid posts. This is an incredibly sensitive issue, and frankly you need to treat it as such. Just because we are on a Dark Elf website, that doesn't give you the right to be obscene.
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Red... wrote:Okay, so just to be clear, you are saying that slavery is not a universal wrong but depends on context? Cool.
Well, first off. Do some reading on the efficiency of slave labour. To cut a long story short, it's inefficient.
Second. Do some reading on international common law. To cut a long story short, some crimes such as genocide and crimes against humanity (which includes human trafficking - which includes slavery) are viewed as universally immoral and illegal and do not come under the category of varying morality. (And yes, this does apply back in time, that's how the Nazis were prosecuted at Nuremberg for a category of crime - genocide - which did not yet exist. It's also a central tenet of the U.N.)
Third. You have managed to back yourself into a position of saying that any action can be justified as moral based on the context. So presumably then mass genocide by regimes such as the Nazis or in Rwanda are morally okay because the Nazis and Hutus thought it was okay?
At best, your posts are showing that you are not being smart. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is the reason behind your incredibly, incredibly stupid posts.
You're not understanding what I mean.
When Genghis Khan's armies were conquering China they purposely killed hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians.
People in the present day would argue this is morally wrong. Genghis Khan and his followers, by their actions, did not see themselves as doing something morally objectionable.
The concept is called moral relativism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism
Another trivial example:
If my girlfriend and I had a child right now, while we are unmarried, our friends and family wouldn't be at all phased by this.
If someone in 1930s Scotland had a child while unmarried they would be a social pariah.
It was seen as immoral then - it is not seen as immoral now
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Yes, and Genghis Khan's actions were morally wrong.
The problem is, you have clearly just learned and become excited by moral relativism and are misapplying it into sensitive moral issues. Slavery cannot be viewed as an objective choice by any society, because it is a crime against humanity and is 100% morally wrong - past, present, future. By the way, it's not an 'argument' people make today, it's enshrined in international law.
Your trivial examples don't apply because a) you are equating a crime against humanity with a trivial example (quite disgusting actually, to make such a comparisson) and b) your trivial examples are not recognised as universally illegal and immoral under international law, whereas slavery is.
So, again, I suggest you stop being stupid and recognise that slavery cannot be defended as a moral choice. Full stop.
Anyway, I'm done with talking about what is hopefully just your ignorance about how to approach a sensitive topic. I'm sure a Mod will be along to lock this thread shortly, and rightly so.
The problem is, you have clearly just learned and become excited by moral relativism and are misapplying it into sensitive moral issues. Slavery cannot be viewed as an objective choice by any society, because it is a crime against humanity and is 100% morally wrong - past, present, future. By the way, it's not an 'argument' people make today, it's enshrined in international law.
Your trivial examples don't apply because a) you are equating a crime against humanity with a trivial example (quite disgusting actually, to make such a comparisson) and b) your trivial examples are not recognised as universally illegal and immoral under international law, whereas slavery is.
So, again, I suggest you stop being stupid and recognise that slavery cannot be defended as a moral choice. Full stop.
Anyway, I'm done with talking about what is hopefully just your ignorance about how to approach a sensitive topic. I'm sure a Mod will be along to lock this thread shortly, and rightly so.
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Red... wrote:The problem is, you have clearly just learned and become excited by moral relativism and are misapplying it into sensitive moral issues. Slavery cannot be viewed as an objective choice by any society, because it is a crime against humanity and is 100% morally wrong - past, present, future. By the way, it's not an 'argument' people make today, it's enshrined in international law.
Right enough about the thread probably needing to be locked, and apologies to Sezax for going so far off track.
I can't understand how you can have so completely missed the point of what I am trying to say over so many posts. I guess I am just not explaining myself properly but I will take one more shot.
I am not trying to argue that slavery, or genocide, or crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women is morally justifiable.
What I am saying is that the people in the past, as they were doing such things, did not believe that their actions were morally wrong.
Last edited by Sisstros on Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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So now slavery is only immoral if the society that practices it believes it to be so? I'm sure that many of the enslaved people's throughout history will be just thrilled to hear that.
Well, yes, essentially.
Actually, you are changing your position.
But don't take my word for it. Try walking into a community of people who have ancestors who were oppressed by slavery and spouting off the same nonsense and see how they respond. Actually, don't.
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Red... wrote:So now slavery is only immoral if the society that practices it believes it to be so? I'm sure that many of the enslaved people's throughout history will be just thrilled to hear that.Well, yes, essentially.
Actually, you are changing your position.
But don't take my word for it. Try walking into a community of people who have ancestors who were oppressed by slavery and spouting off the same nonsense and see how they respond. Actually, don't.
I'm starting to think that you are being deliberately obtuse in order to make fun of me.
I haven't changed my position.
The point I started with was that if you are going to think hard about a hypothetical Dark Elf society they you have to look about how that society frames it sense of right and wrong.
The Dark Elf does not perceive slavery is wrong.
The Dark Elf does not perceive piracy as morally wrong.
The Dark Elf does not perceive killing or mutilation for punishment or sport as morally wrong.
At various points in history, human beings have had societies where all of these actions were morally and socially acceptable.
We see the Dark Elves as evil but they would not see themselves as evil.
From the beginning that was, at the core of the issue, the main point I was trying to make.
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Indeed, and the point I was trying to make at the start is that you need to be sensitive on these issues. And you weren't.
And believe me, I am not 'making fun' of you or this issue you at all. I am suggesting that statements such as: "If you are in desperate need of labourers you take them from somewhere else; if the people you are taking them from are too weak to defend themselves, well hard lines for them." is badly phrased, insensitive and potentially extremely offensive. Be careful with how you phrase things. Life is not an academic game, it is real, and people have been - and still are being - really hurt by slavery. You would be well advised to tread lightly and sensitively when discussing such issues.
And believe me, I am not 'making fun' of you or this issue you at all. I am suggesting that statements such as: "If you are in desperate need of labourers you take them from somewhere else; if the people you are taking them from are too weak to defend themselves, well hard lines for them." is badly phrased, insensitive and potentially extremely offensive. Be careful with how you phrase things. Life is not an academic game, it is real, and people have been - and still are being - really hurt by slavery. You would be well advised to tread lightly and sensitively when discussing such issues.
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So! Back on topic 
While the OP and I do not usually agree on our viewpoints , I cetainly do agree that it would be nice if GW kept a consistent and logical pantheon.
To my mind, the lapses from this are either down to:
a.) Lords of Changes - GW wants to make a change, e.g. someone decides to remove all traces of Chaos worship from Elven culture.
b.) Did Not Do The Research - the author didn't bother reading the existing source material and was either lazy, sloppy or just didn't care enough to get fairly basic details right.
c.) WTFGW - Who in their right mind decides that the ... well we probably all have our own favourite examples of this, a disproportionate number of mine are from a writer whose names rhymes with Havin'.
It's hard to say which (or what combination) of these are the case for each individual case, and I doubt we'll get a tidy-up of the Elven pantheon. (And does anyone else wonder where Gaea (as in the Gaean Vale) went?)
But yes I'd like it if they stuck to one view, extra points if it was also the one I prefer
To my mind "Elven pleasure cults" is a weak, diluted and characterless enemy, in danger of disappearing entirely under a welter of rationalisation ("but it's all just a natural part of the Elven psyche blah blah blah") and lacking any real punch or clandestine, hidden, truly indulgent wickedness. Whereas Slaanesh-worship is a much stronger, more dramatic idea, truly and definitively a sign that a person has sold themselves to Chaos in exchange for power and has crossed a line. This for my money made for much more dramatic stories, where the outlawed faith wasn't just something a bit dodgy on the side but wrong on an epic scale. Or, from another perspective, a character takes the decision to use even the Ruinous Powers for their own ends as they believe that their cause and Will are strong enough to withstand and make a puppet of Chaos.
So I'd vote for keeping the Dark Elven corruption as involving Slaanesh worship, but I doubt what I want will have anything to do with what GW do, unless of course it means I and a large number of other people stop buying their minis ...
While the OP and I do not usually agree on our viewpoints , I cetainly do agree that it would be nice if GW kept a consistent and logical pantheon.
To my mind, the lapses from this are either down to:
a.) Lords of Changes - GW wants to make a change, e.g. someone decides to remove all traces of Chaos worship from Elven culture.
b.) Did Not Do The Research - the author didn't bother reading the existing source material and was either lazy, sloppy or just didn't care enough to get fairly basic details right.
c.) WTFGW - Who in their right mind decides that the ... well we probably all have our own favourite examples of this, a disproportionate number of mine are from a writer whose names rhymes with Havin'.
It's hard to say which (or what combination) of these are the case for each individual case, and I doubt we'll get a tidy-up of the Elven pantheon. (And does anyone else wonder where Gaea (as in the Gaean Vale) went?)
But yes I'd like it if they stuck to one view, extra points if it was also the one I prefer
To my mind "Elven pleasure cults" is a weak, diluted and characterless enemy, in danger of disappearing entirely under a welter of rationalisation ("but it's all just a natural part of the Elven psyche blah blah blah") and lacking any real punch or clandestine, hidden, truly indulgent wickedness. Whereas Slaanesh-worship is a much stronger, more dramatic idea, truly and definitively a sign that a person has sold themselves to Chaos in exchange for power and has crossed a line. This for my money made for much more dramatic stories, where the outlawed faith wasn't just something a bit dodgy on the side but wrong on an epic scale. Or, from another perspective, a character takes the decision to use even the Ruinous Powers for their own ends as they believe that their cause and Will are strong enough to withstand and make a puppet of Chaos.
So I'd vote for keeping the Dark Elven corruption as involving Slaanesh worship, but I doubt what I want will have anything to do with what GW do, unless of course it means I and a large number of other people stop buying their minis ...
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I don't want to lock this because despite the way off topics remarks and debate about slavery and morals some effort has been made to answer the OP point. I think we can probably agree on the following points
1)People throughout history have found reasons to justify slavery
2)No slave would find these reasons acceptable
3) No modern civilised human would find these reasons acceptable
So let’s keep the thread open and drop the topic of the morality of human slavery, Dark elves practice slavery, this is because dark elves are evil and are supposed to be, fantasy is separate from reality and I hope no one on this site would really be in favour of slavery. We should accept the past and take inspiration from races such as the Romans and Spartans, we can do this without accepting their moral principles. We are privileged as an age in being able to see many societies as equals through mass travel and media, let's not turn that into a cause for dissent. -Drainial
1)People throughout history have found reasons to justify slavery
2)No slave would find these reasons acceptable
3) No modern civilised human would find these reasons acceptable
So let’s keep the thread open and drop the topic of the morality of human slavery, Dark elves practice slavery, this is because dark elves are evil and are supposed to be, fantasy is separate from reality and I hope no one on this site would really be in favour of slavery. We should accept the past and take inspiration from races such as the Romans and Spartans, we can do this without accepting their moral principles. We are privileged as an age in being able to see many societies as equals through mass travel and media, let's not turn that into a cause for dissent. -Drainial
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Red... wrote:You could argue Dark Elves practice mass slavery simply as a purely objective answer to their society's requirements:
If you are in desperate need of labourers you take them from somewhere else; if the people you are taking them from are too weak to defend themselves, well hard lines for them.
Let's perhaps be a little careful about not putting forward justifications in defence of slavery as a general concept - even if they don't represent your own views... I don't think it is valid to ever say that slavery is a purely objective answer to any society's requirements.
I think your statement should, perhaps, be caveated with the idea that the Dark Elves take this option because they are a brutal, uncaring and ultimately twisted race. That makes the choice seem rational from their perspective, but it is definitely not a rational choice for races who aren't evil/twisted/cruel.
It depends. DE have alot of characteristics similar to the Romans and Spartans of old.
From the Spartans we have a society that is continually geared towards war and conquest, either in the preparation of it or fighting on the front line it self.
You also have the fact, at least in the Malus Dark Blade Books, Children that do not meet the physical requirements of birth (healthy, no deformities) they are sent to the couldons of khaine to be sacrificed in the same way newborn Spartans are killed if they are not fit to live. From there, they are in perpetual training until pass their rite of passage, and then it's war
As for the Romans, their soldiers were soldiers first and foremost, and some of the best trained soldiers in the world. Once their 30-35 years of service are up they can retire on the land they have earned, which will provably farming. They have a large pantheon, but they are the Sons of Mars, the god of war. Rome was also in continual conquest, and it is with conquest and the loot it acquired, that they gained it's wealth.
This bloodthirsty nature was one they nurtured and encouraged with spectacles such as the Arena. While 90% of gladiators survived (they were expensive to train, heal, and house) the games were a blood bath. You also had the fact the first thing in the morning was public executions, preferably with hungry animals doing the deed (if an ampatheater of cheering people doesn't scare them first).
Both treated their slaves as below animals. While gladiators were the superstars and sex symnbles of their day, most of them were free Romans either seaking a way out of debt or bored out their mind. The rest in both Spartan and Roman culture were not treated well. Mines were a death sentance, and spartans worked their slave poppulatrion to death so hard their shelf life was not much different from the slaves of the Dark Elves. Yeah, I said it, there is a real world comparison for the DE slave labor.
DE and Spartans use slaves out of sloth. Spartans had single-minded dedicated to war, with all their worldly belongings dedicated to war (their red cloaks helped hide the gore, their wives produced the next recruits, and so on). While DE are not that dedicated to war, both would rather do the menial chores to someone else.
Who needs sanity? I have a Hydra
@Saintofm: Apparently you can't read the sensible Mod post requesting that the topic be dropped?...
BTW, there is no shortage of humans treating slaves worse than dark elves do - my point is (again) that it's not really okay to say "objectively, I can see why they would do that". Because it is never okay. Ever.
I'm feeling baffled why anyone is trying to defend slavery as a rational choice. Absolutely baffled. C'mon D.Netters - you are better than this. Let's move on.
BTW, there is no shortage of humans treating slaves worse than dark elves do - my point is (again) that it's not really okay to say "objectively, I can see why they would do that". Because it is never okay. Ever.
I'm feeling baffled why anyone is trying to defend slavery as a rational choice. Absolutely baffled. C'mon D.Netters - you are better than this. Let's move on.
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I just want to say I think this is fairly silly. Such rage and anger over a species of none existent humanoids. The fact that anyone would take anything these make believes people do and apply it to real life, is just well absurd. There is no reason to take anything written about a dark elf or druchii and apply it to anything real period, let alone get worked up about it.
Flyers for the win in 8th.
DEATH FROM ABOVE DRUCIH AIR CAV!!!!
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The League of Extraordinary Druchii
DEATH FROM ABOVE DRUCIH AIR CAV!!!!
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The League of Extraordinary Druchii
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Dalamar
- Dragon Lord
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You have to be a lot more open minded when you look at GW fluff. Take what you see and use your mind to mold it into a shape that works for you.
My imagination of the elven pantheon is this:
Elves worship their own gods, High, Dark and Wood Elves have their own views on the same gods.
Dark Elves in general don't worship Chaos. Just like humans in general don't worship Chaos.
Dark Elves have their own, socially acceptable dark pantheon.
Some dark elves (as well as some high elves, and possibly some wood elves) can fall under the sway of the Chaos gods and begin worshipping them.
Cult of Slaanesh as existed in Storm of Chaos is Morathi's manipulation. Barely any elves were present in the army, which consisted mostly of dominated Marauder tribe and summoned demons.
As for the controversial subject of slavery. I agree with Sisstros and at the same time would like to state that if we, as a society bury ourselves under political correctness, then we will stop developing as a society. If you bury what you don't like under a "hush hush" carpet, it will never be addressed.
My imagination of the elven pantheon is this:
Elves worship their own gods, High, Dark and Wood Elves have their own views on the same gods.
Dark Elves in general don't worship Chaos. Just like humans in general don't worship Chaos.
Dark Elves have their own, socially acceptable dark pantheon.
Some dark elves (as well as some high elves, and possibly some wood elves) can fall under the sway of the Chaos gods and begin worshipping them.
Cult of Slaanesh as existed in Storm of Chaos is Morathi's manipulation. Barely any elves were present in the army, which consisted mostly of dominated Marauder tribe and summoned demons.
As for the controversial subject of slavery. I agree with Sisstros and at the same time would like to state that if we, as a society bury ourselves under political correctness, then we will stop developing as a society. If you bury what you don't like under a "hush hush" carpet, it will never be addressed.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Fine, I give in. I'm kinda done. Accept slavery as a moral neutral for societies that don't condemn it, or whatever you want, I've said my piece. Bask in your enlightened moral relativist glory, or something.
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
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I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
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I think Red is very unfair to Saintform. I am grateful for the Mod post, but there are civilisations in modern war, which still practise slavery (whether they call it slavery or not) and thats why this is very important topic and thats also why I do not mind that my original topis was kind of buried...
There is nothing as holy to me as human rights. Thats why I am so disapointed in lack of reflection of serious problems such as slavery, poverty, homophobia and racism in Warhammer fiction. Even today many cruel people support idea of racism and slavery and some pretend that slavery did not happen. Statistics associated with voting for/against Prop 8 or ,,Dont ask dont tell" has clearly shown that many African Americans feel no moral doubt when opressing rights of LGBT people despite recent event of american slavery. To pretend that our own generation is not being cruel without hint of shame is pure hypocrisy.
Thats why it is so important to have art which allows us to see error of our ways, to question choices which had not been questioned before. The fictional druchii society is perfect for this. Forums on druchii.net has clearly shown how many people still believe in myths like ,,social darwinism", progressive kind of pragmatic sexism, racism and homophobia.
The elven fluff is currently representing very one-sided view on fight between good and evil. We have these aristocratic noble CONSERVATIVE Asur and then this wicked evil Chaos whose favourite words are sex and CHANGE.
The discussion between Red and Saintform reminds of part of book Caledor, where one elf tries to defend the idea of innocent worship of Ereth Khial and Atharti while the other elf (that BSB/captain of Lothern) quickly dismisses such talk as heresy and social taboos. The nice virtuous conservative mother of Shadowking also portrays the Athartists as perverts and abominations. Thats what I find about warhammer fluff so disturbing. The pretending of Gav Thorpe that there is no cartoon evil. You cant pretend that druchii are just old pagan nation like Romans or Spartans, if you create them as bigots, who pretend that things as homosexuality dont exist or represent weakness, when in real war-obsessed empires of old the situation was reverse.
If druchii were potrayed more like ,,aristocrats destroyed by their own passions" and Asur like ,,aristocrats clinging to prudishness out of desperation" then we could truly see the most deep and meaningful art in warhammer stories.
Then again I cannot deny that catholic Tolkien is considered father of fantasy as well as wise classic author despite also presenting this childish vision of absolute evil and good.
I however do not consider such fairy tales as high art. I want religion, which breathes and imperfect gods and imperfect mortals and moral grey zones. Thats what I expect from high literature and thats what I would like to see in Warhammer one day.
Of course we cant expect such things as long as there is Gaia jumping from Gaean Vale to Warhammer 40000 to cheat on Asuryan with Khaine.
There is nothing as holy to me as human rights. Thats why I am so disapointed in lack of reflection of serious problems such as slavery, poverty, homophobia and racism in Warhammer fiction. Even today many cruel people support idea of racism and slavery and some pretend that slavery did not happen. Statistics associated with voting for/against Prop 8 or ,,Dont ask dont tell" has clearly shown that many African Americans feel no moral doubt when opressing rights of LGBT people despite recent event of american slavery. To pretend that our own generation is not being cruel without hint of shame is pure hypocrisy.
Thats why it is so important to have art which allows us to see error of our ways, to question choices which had not been questioned before. The fictional druchii society is perfect for this. Forums on druchii.net has clearly shown how many people still believe in myths like ,,social darwinism", progressive kind of pragmatic sexism, racism and homophobia.
The elven fluff is currently representing very one-sided view on fight between good and evil. We have these aristocratic noble CONSERVATIVE Asur and then this wicked evil Chaos whose favourite words are sex and CHANGE.
The discussion between Red and Saintform reminds of part of book Caledor, where one elf tries to defend the idea of innocent worship of Ereth Khial and Atharti while the other elf (that BSB/captain of Lothern) quickly dismisses such talk as heresy and social taboos. The nice virtuous conservative mother of Shadowking also portrays the Athartists as perverts and abominations. Thats what I find about warhammer fluff so disturbing. The pretending of Gav Thorpe that there is no cartoon evil. You cant pretend that druchii are just old pagan nation like Romans or Spartans, if you create them as bigots, who pretend that things as homosexuality dont exist or represent weakness, when in real war-obsessed empires of old the situation was reverse.
If druchii were potrayed more like ,,aristocrats destroyed by their own passions" and Asur like ,,aristocrats clinging to prudishness out of desperation" then we could truly see the most deep and meaningful art in warhammer stories.
Then again I cannot deny that catholic Tolkien is considered father of fantasy as well as wise classic author despite also presenting this childish vision of absolute evil and good.
I however do not consider such fairy tales as high art. I want religion, which breathes and imperfect gods and imperfect mortals and moral grey zones. Thats what I expect from high literature and thats what I would like to see in Warhammer one day.
Of course we cant expect such things as long as there is Gaia jumping from Gaean Vale to Warhammer 40000 to cheat on Asuryan with Khaine.
@Red, when I wrote what I did, i was going back and forth between this and two nieces and a nephew, so I didn't have a chance to look at the Mod request. And I wasn't talking about slavery as good or evil, just the two main real world cultures that share disturbingly close similarities to the DE (societies that make the worst slave state in the United States during it's Civil War look like Disney movie).
ANd yes, these are not the only ones in the warhammer world that do it, but with the exception of the FoD armies, most of the other tend to pretend they are being subtle (although some try harder than others).
@Geist: GW bases their armies LOOSLY of of real world people (Beastmen are the Germatic tribes that fought against the Roman occupiers, Norsca are vikings; Lizardmen are Azteks; Brettonia is Medieval France, and so on). And Yes, it's silly trying to apply any sence, logic, or nerd rage on a hobby of overpriced little plastic/pewter/Finecast models...your point? We're nerds, what were you expecting?
But since this is really in needs of another thread, lets go back the OP.
Currently, I like the present fluff with the elves (it still leave much to be desired, but so does a few of our favorite rules when it changed from 7th to 8th edition). I like the idea of a broad pantheon both sides focus on. Especially with the Dark elves as it didn't make sense for me that a polytheistic society such as this would have a splinter society go nuts and worship just one to the exclusion of all else (unless that's a cover for another popular cult). Or that there would only be one deity that the other Gods think needs an attitude adjustment, thus allowing another self absorbed, egotistical god to waltz in a have a little fun?
Now with two pantheons, it makes a little more since.
Other things need to be adjusted for 8th edition as it is now as while some areas sound like improvements, others make the DE socitety more unstable than a tribe of Night Gobblins.
ANd yes, these are not the only ones in the warhammer world that do it, but with the exception of the FoD armies, most of the other tend to pretend they are being subtle (although some try harder than others).
@Geist: GW bases their armies LOOSLY of of real world people (Beastmen are the Germatic tribes that fought against the Roman occupiers, Norsca are vikings; Lizardmen are Azteks; Brettonia is Medieval France, and so on). And Yes, it's silly trying to apply any sence, logic, or nerd rage on a hobby of overpriced little plastic/pewter/Finecast models...your point? We're nerds, what were you expecting?
But since this is really in needs of another thread, lets go back the OP.
Currently, I like the present fluff with the elves (it still leave much to be desired, but so does a few of our favorite rules when it changed from 7th to 8th edition). I like the idea of a broad pantheon both sides focus on. Especially with the Dark elves as it didn't make sense for me that a polytheistic society such as this would have a splinter society go nuts and worship just one to the exclusion of all else (unless that's a cover for another popular cult). Or that there would only be one deity that the other Gods think needs an attitude adjustment, thus allowing another self absorbed, egotistical god to waltz in a have a little fun?
Now with two pantheons, it makes a little more since.
Other things need to be adjusted for 8th edition as it is now as while some areas sound like improvements, others make the DE socitety more unstable than a tribe of Night Gobblins.
Who needs sanity? I have a Hydra
just the two main real world cultures that share disturbingly close similarities to the DE (societies that make the worst slave state in the United States during it's Civil War look like Disney movie).
Come on. This is disgusting - you simply cannot say this kind of thing - making reference to slavery during the Civil War as 'like a disney movie' (even in comparative terms). Please lock the thread.
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
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Drainial
- Prophet of Tzeentch
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- Location: I am the voice inside your head
I do not feel that discussions about slavery should not be banned on principle; it is a major part of DE background after all and was widely practiced by many societies throughout history. Rome and Sparta certainly and more recently America and shortly before that by all major European powers in particular GB, Spain and Portugal (though probably almost no colonial power can be excused, I am not an expert on the period), Aztecs, Mongols, Chinese, Indians, Greeks, Persians... I could go on. There has been an acceptance of Slavery in society for far longer than there has been any kind of generally held abhorrence of it and the fact that the end of widespread slavery (yes it still exists in some parts of the world but it is at least illegal for the most part) correlates with the industrial revolution and its labour saving devices is something which is worthy of consideration.
On the other hand it is a sensitive topic, the Black slaves in the colonial period were treated worse than almost any slaves at any point in history. It was stated somewhere above that Romans treated their slaves as less and animals, this is untrue, many slaves were treated with respect and some once freed (not something you see much of in DE society) rose to positions of great wealth, prominence and power. Certainly flippant remarks should be avoided. As I feel that this topic has gone so far off topic that I doubt it will ever find its way back and it is clear that tempers are becoming a little frayed I will lock this thread, to be honest a Warhammer fan site is not a particularly appropriate place to talk about the morality of slavery any more than a BL book is an appropriate place to explore the issues of homophobia or racism (they are air port novels based on a war game and that is their appeal, leave great issues to great authors and let them express it in their own way, orks trying to smash your head in doesn’t really help with that sort of thing).
Thread Locked -Drainial
On the other hand it is a sensitive topic, the Black slaves in the colonial period were treated worse than almost any slaves at any point in history. It was stated somewhere above that Romans treated their slaves as less and animals, this is untrue, many slaves were treated with respect and some once freed (not something you see much of in DE society) rose to positions of great wealth, prominence and power. Certainly flippant remarks should be avoided. As I feel that this topic has gone so far off topic that I doubt it will ever find its way back and it is clear that tempers are becoming a little frayed I will lock this thread, to be honest a Warhammer fan site is not a particularly appropriate place to talk about the morality of slavery any more than a BL book is an appropriate place to explore the issues of homophobia or racism (they are air port novels based on a war game and that is their appeal, leave great issues to great authors and let them express it in their own way, orks trying to smash your head in doesn’t really help with that sort of thing).
Thread Locked -Drainial
Moding a group of Druchii.net players is much like directing the musical 'Cats' using actual cats. Frustrating, difficult, chaotic but ultimatley satisfying and a great deal of fun.
Arch Deacon of the RPG forum
Gentleman of Moderation
Arch Deacon of the RPG forum
Gentleman of Moderation