Does Morathi seek Godhood?

Norelle · Post by **Norelle** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:13 am

I read somewhere that Morathi ultimately hopes to make herself a Goddess? Is this true?

Post by **Drainial** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:43 pm

Well she was/is a follower of chaos and the ultimate goal of all chaos worshipors is daemonhood so in that sense probobly yes.

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:34 pm

Warhammer universe doesn't allow for ascension like, say DnD worlds. Warhammer Gods are beings made of the collective psyche of mortals so you can't just pop another one.

She could aspire to become a Demon Princess, but if she really wanted that, I'm sure she'd be one by now. Elves don't appreciate mutations so I expect her plans lie in another direction.

Like Immortality (She already has that) and conquest of the World (which she will likely have if she succeeds to unravel the Vortex... or it will all blow up in her hands)

Post by **Tarbo** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:23 pm

Over time, with finding out more and more of Morathi's background, my interest in her motives and thinking is edging closely towards the clinical.

What Morathi is after is pretty much anyone's guess. She seems to prefer the role of kingmaker over king/queen, and doesn't shy away from overt connections to daemons as means to an end. But even though we hear much of her methods and her means, we rarely hear about her ends. Why does she do these things?

But on the topic, Morathi may ambition becoming a goddess but, as Dalamar said, that seems unlikely to happen, though there is some precedent to it (cfr. Nagash). She will likely have to settle for godlike powers through extensive manipulation of magic, and a blade to the gut will always give her an allergic reaction.

My two cents, anyway. I'm not an authority on Warhammer Fantasy background.

Norelle · Post by **Norelle** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:40 pm

Nor am I, but I was curious about it's validity.

Dangerous Beans · Post by **Dangerous Beans** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:56 pm

She could possibly be - Morathi I think is the most complex of our characters and as such my personal (and indeed many others too) favourite. I think that Tarbo hits on some excellent points - particularly the kingmaker comment.

Morathi has always seemed to me, to be playing the black widow: acting defenceless and vulnerable like a damsel in distress:
- Aenarion's rescue of her from a Chaos warband.
- The 'submission' to Malekith's rule and decrees.
- How she tends to take a less 'up front' approach to politics and such

And yet really, her underpinning intentions and actions are quite different: whilst Malekith conquered abroad, she instigated and developed the cult of pleasure on Ulthuan.

I'm a little drunk and tired right now, but the thing is I think is that Morathi likes to stir things up deliberately and feel the power of being the 'puppet master' - pulling all the strings from behind the scenes: whether mortal, elf or daemonic.

Norelle · Post by **Norelle** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:32 pm

Mmm, interesting. I like reading stuff like this.

Sezax · Post by **Sezax** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:17 pm

I think she seeks to become living goddess among mortals. Thats the only way how I can explain to myself her nature and actions.

I was always wondering about limitations of druchii sorcerers, which are very strange when you compare them to vampires and daemons. The whole thing with cauldrons seems so temporary and expensive (the amount of slaves another pragmatic problems). Why would desperate Hellebron not willingly become a vampire?

It seemed hard to justify in fluff, that druchii sorceresses do not constantly conjure their own armies of Daemons or Undead...human sorcerers and necromancers are supposed to be noobs in magic compared to them...

It could be partly explained by a fact, that Elves (especialy Asur) are conservative and thus are only bragging about glories of past and unlike Nagash do not try to invent anything since Sundering.

How else could one explain, that five thousand year old Morathi blessed by most terribel powers and wielding the most potent and forbidden magic can be matched on battlefield by some human Empire wizard with good items?

Do thousand and one dark blessings mean just one stupid 4+ward save, +1 to casting and leadership test?

I like to explain it this way:

Morathi in battle always uses only fraction of her power in order to be always able to escape into Realm of Chaos no matter what happens. She does not risk to bring her favourite items to battle.

As a ruler she does not need primarily powers useful on battlefield, but rather things like Slaaneshi Allure, scrying powers, immortality, arcane knowledge, magical gaze etc.

It makes sense that she would rather desire ability to read minds than casting stronger magic missile.

Why to cling to that pathetic cauldron? She is a hedonist and likes her body too much, she does not wish to pay the prizes for being Daemon or vampire (such as being chained to Realm of Chaos or not walk out in sunlight etc.).

Why does she not summon Daemons or undead? Because not even she could ever obtain/control this way army as huge as Naggarothi armada. She is also probably too clever to trust Daemons and too vain to surround herself with rotting zombies.

So I think she does indeed wish to become goddess. She just calls it the Queen of the Elvenkind. Her curse is to be always only halfway from becoming that.

Post by **Drainial** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:34 am

Well she has summoned daemonic hordes in admittedly retconed background (Storm of Chaos). I have never understood the cauldrons, on one hand elves are not supposed to age very much throughout their lives and on the other the hag queens are supposed to become ugly in a year. Now possibly this only happens when they are beyond a normal life span, perhaps Helebron is in her 3,000s or so. The limits on her power compared to human wizards is obviously just a matter of playability, GW has vastly pumped up the power of the great mages in the background but they can hardly have Teclis using one spell to banish a Daemonic host including a powerful daemon prince or have a second gen Slaan open up a vast chasm in the earth to swallow an ork army whole without breaking the game.

Druchii have different ways of achieving things than do humans, the Druchii anointed (again retconed, irritatingly) being a prime example, they were basically very close to Daemonhood but seemingly remain in elven form. Come to think of it I don't think there are any recorded elven daemon princes in the full sense; Dachela would be but for the terms of Slaanesh's bargain. Belakor was said to be the first daemon prince from the Warhammer world and he was human. Maybe they just don't feel they need it, like being a vampire there are other ways to gain physical power and if you are going to live for thousands of years naturally immortality doesn't have quite the same appeal. Most necromancers only manage a few centuries at best in any case, Naggash being the obvious exception.

To look at things objectively for a moment Morathi already has immortality (though the fruit of the black tree, divine blessings, Khainite cauldron based shenanigans or her own dark magic, take your pick). She also has eternal youth and beauty, a great many servants including powerful sorceresses, lords and assassins. She also has the power to summon great daemonic armies and (if we ignore the storm of chaos retcon which I choose to by and large since there was just so much good stuff in it) can call upon tribesmen from the north. She also has a great deal of influence over Malekith though that is a complex relationship to say the least. Really you need to define goddess because in many ways (immortal, powerful, wide reach and range of knowledge, ability to contact other gods) she can be counted as one already.

She cannot be a god in the usual Warhammer sense, the closest she could get would be if she died and began to be worshiped in which case it is possible that like Sigmar a deity very similar to her public persona would be created, I doubt she wants that. Daemon hood is a possible aim but being an elf it may be denied her (simply due to lack of other examples though if anyone can think of one that might go out the window) and other than virtual indestructibility (in that she could be banished but not killed by anything short of the wrath of a god, Widowmaker or something of equal power), which is admittedly not to be sniffed at, what would she really gain from it?

Post by **Dalamar** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:08 am

From demonhood? She would become a slave to a chaos god, possibly Slaanesh. I'm quite sure she doesn't want that.

Demons, even demon princes, are ultimate servants of their gods. Morathi is a servant to no one.

Post by **Drainial** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:01 am

If she is a servant of chaos at all (and she is so far as I can see) then she is already a slave to chaos whether she knows it or not.

Saintofm · Post by **Saintofm** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:28 pm

Well, lets ask this: Did Sigmar really ascend into Godhood, or did the priests take some of the night Goblin Mad Caps?

Post by **Tarbo** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:48 pm

Related to that question, and following in Drainial's reasoning: what is a god in the Warhammer World? Is any sufficiently powerful being assumed to be a deity, or does it have requirements, like lack of a mortal coil, and power through worship?

Silic · Post by **Silic** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:51 pm

My understanding is that Sigmar wandered off into the Badlands. His dietification happened years after his disappearance; I believe he achieved "godhood" through thought and belief rather than real ascension.

Post by **Dalamar** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:54 am

Gods in Warhammer are manifestations of Mortal Psyche.

Sigmar became a god because the entire Human race believes he did.

Since elves have completely different relationship with their gods, I doubt they would start worshipping Morathi as one.

Post by **Drainial** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:00 am

Dalamar wrote:
Since elves have completely different relationship with their gods, I doubt they would start worshipping Morathi as one.

Chaos tribe’s men on the other hand...

As I understand it there are potentially thousands of creatures like gods but on a smaller scale and many of these are called daemons (this being one way they can be created). Presumably similar creatures which are good could also be theoretically created but if so there is no evidence for them and anything lower than divine level though I have never been clear where forest spirits fit into the scheme of things.

Silic · Post by **Silic** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:44 pm

Asrai.org has something on just that subject, Drainial. I believe they reached the conclusion that the forest spirits are actual daemons rooted in place, essentially.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:04 pm

As for the Morathi wanting to become a daemon princess, I don't think so at all. Dark Elves hates chaos, even though they would rather see Chaos swarm over and destroy the world rather than not being the superior race.

I'd think that Morathi would use the powers of chaos, if she needed, to achieve whatever gains she wanted for herself and Malekith. That being said, I don't think she'd ever consider falling as a puppet for the chaos gods.... however, whether she is already or not, could be discussed.

As far as I've read, her sources of magic is from old dark elven gods that are forbidden. Parts of these gods resembles Slaanesh, so maybe they are part of the entity... It's kinda hard to say as far as I've read the fluff.

The slaanesh cults still are within the Dark Elf society, but isn't it still forbidden and a secret thing? Just like those cults Morathi started within the elven society which was also her ways of manipulating the other elves before Malekith tried to take the throne of Ulthuan... I guess there would be legal cults (like the khainites) within the dark elf society that resembles those old cults, without being directly a cult of slaanesh?

Anyways, I think Morathi would try to do whatever she can to achieve godhood, or immortality. As well as keeping her looks perfect.

Dangerous Beans · Post by **Dangerous Beans** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:02 pm

I do not think that Morathi seeks daemonhood in the slightest: think about it, what would the difference be to being immortal in the realm of chaos compared to immortality on the warhammer world? I think that Sezax makes a good point that if her life were ever threatened then she has the means to 'teleport' to the realm of chaos (Malekith certainly did during the battle of the finuvial plains: Morathi is surely even more adept at it than Malekith being as she is the more powerful wizard of the two), so she is pretty much immortal whether through age or being struck a mortal blow?

Keeping it short and sweet (and back on topic) what Morathi now seeks (having gained as repeatedly stated - immortality, eternal youth etc etc) is the ultimate power of everything and anything:
- mortal
- immortal
- daemonic
- powerful leaders
- even the chaos gods (unlikely though that may be to achieve)

Whilst Malekith seems contented to fixate almost entirely upon his own nation and Ulthuan (which Morathi I might add had no small part in the influence of), Morathi is quite happy to dabble in the affairs of moral worshippers such as chaos, invading lustria to seek the most ancient artefacts of all (which might give her some clues at to how this ultimate power over all can be achieved).

I would put her intentions on a similar scale to those of Nagash's: dominion and rulership of all, however Morathi goes about this in an entirely different manner: much much less overtly and as a result far less open opposition or even any opposition whatsoever...

Dangerous Beans · Post by **Dangerous Beans** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:36 pm

Just found this if anyone is interested - I think its all fan based, though I could be wrong (my experience of druchii history only dates to the 6th edition army book).

An interesting take on this topic for sure!

http://sezax.wordpress.com/tag/druchii/

Norelle · Post by **Norelle** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:57 pm

Oh! I read that, it was awesome!!!

Post by **Dalamar** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:48 am

Just keep in mind that it's pure fanfic.

Also from the few stories by Sezax that I read, canon tends to be skipped when uncomfortable or totally avoided/changed.

Dangerous Beans · Post by **Dangerous Beans** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:16 am

Indeed, I have never heard of Morathi reffered to as a water magic user and nor the 'history' of how slaanesh ties in with this. Though I like the conclusion of her seeking godhood as a result...

Post by **Dalamar** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:22 am

Sadly seeking godhood is largely impossible in Warhammer universe as Gods are manifestation of the psyche of the Mortals.

And then we don't have any proof that such "ascended" god is actually still the same person. Because they are shaped by the minds of their worshippers, their nature is affected by it. Slaanesh can't choose to be any less Slaaneshy because it's against his/her nature.

Sigmar only did so because the entire human race believes he became one when he died and there is no indication that the "god" Sigmar possesses the same personality as "human" Sigmar did. I would expect him to be more of an image of the perfect human which he certainly wasn't when he was alive.

Sezax · Post by **Sezax** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:24 am

Also from the few stories by Sezax that I read, canon tends to be skipped when uncomfortable or totally avoided/changed.

Actually I believe I have very similar approach towards canon as Dalamar, which means to understand it in the way it makes sense to me and in the way I like it (basicaly no retarded pseudosocial pseudodarwinism, crazy but not stupid elves and lot of nasty erotic things). The only difference between me and Dalamar is that I consider BL canon and REFUSE retcons while he EMBRACES retcons.

That story I created in order to make sense to me how is it possible that magic was so different before coming of Chaos. I was inspired by the fact that Liber Chaotica associates Chaos Gods with four elements (Slaanesh with water).

Anyway I dare to say that in canon it is more than hinted that mortals can ascend. Sigmar is the most obvious example. It would be childs play to prove this by looking into 40000 or into BL but I do not wish to listen to ,,non-canon" and ,,separate universes" again.

So lets just remember that mortlas can become Daemons, daemons are lesser forms of gods. Daemon Princes retain at least little of their personality. Chaos Gods can infuse their avatars with their power. So did Asuryan and Khaine with Aenarion. Those are canon facts no matter how much you wish to make the space of canon limited.

Now since elven gods seem to be bound by same/similar laws as Chaos Gods and Daemons, and since in canon some daemon princes are worshipped as deities, it is more than likely that mortal elf can under certain circumstances become Spirit/Daemon/God ( in my army fluff my daemonettes are thus slain Slaaneshi Witches )