BL and its concept of canon in near future?

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Sezax
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BL and its concept of canon in near future?

Post by Sezax »

I am lately discovering that BL art lately seems to return a lot to relationship between Elves and Slaanesh. While some people in GW tried to retcon this, new novels such as Sigvald, Elfslayer or Hour of Shadows seem to promote this idea further despite radical changes in new DE AB by Gav Thorpe.

I am especially interested in this because I hope so much that our new AB will include Slaanesh again in lore and because I like Darkblade novels and would love to see next book.

I have problem to imagine next darkblase novel, since its gonna be so hard for its reality to coexist with new reality of new DE AB. I think (unlike many) that Darkblade novels were not very different from our old canon lore (except for Hellebron etc.), but now DEs seem too different.

Do any of you know, whether there is some page where one can find what books are planned by BL and GW?

Also what change or versions of DE lores of past and present would you like to be returned, forgotten or preserved (such as Chaos Elves of old, Khainati pseudosocial pseudodarwinists of 6th edition, cartoon evil pagan nazis of today?)
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Post by Tyrannus deathbringer »

Bill King's new trilogy about Tyrion and Teclis will be the most 'up to date' Black Library book on HE/DE and their back story.

Black Library is not canonical so I dont know how much bearing this will have on future army lists. I expect if the designers tasked with the new DE book like his ideas they'll integrate some of it into the game. Or maybe they'll like to put their own stamp on things ;) Who knows?

Apart from that I don't know anymore of what's going on DE wise in GW.

Personally, I liked the Slaanesh connection and the old chaos elves :P. I wouldnt mind seeing it back, as long as there were still strong elements of Khaine and other elf gods to give colour and depth to our background.
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Post by Nightcall »

Sons of Ellyrion features a DE army teamed up with an army of Slaanesh.

I hope the next part of the Malus saga is written up, the rumoured storyline looks rather good [spoiler below, blacked out (from Hammer Wiki)].

[ "Soulless, Malus wandered through the Chaos Wastes for 10 years, not caring for life or death, with only the Warpsword of Khaine having survived the ritual. Then, one day, a sorcerer approached him and told him he knew where Tz'arkan was. Fearing for his life, the sorcerer had tattooed the map to Tz'arkan's hiding place onto his back to make sure Malus would need him further. Malus ended the man's illusions by slaying him, skinning the map from his back and feeding the rest to his ever-loyal Cold One Spite. Malus then set out to face Tz'arkan. Facing numerous foes from all the Four Gods of Chaos, he eventually found Tz'arkan within the realm of the Screaming God Child, a crazed entity of Chaos. Malus was able to trick the God Child and flee, but when the entity noticed this, he imprisoned Tz'arkan in Malus' body once more as a punishment. From then on, Tz'arkan would take control of Malus whenever he slept. Thus, Malus now drinks a magical potion that keeps him awake indefinitely. Only when the strength and savagery of the daemon is required does Malus imbibe a potion of sleep to wake the daemon.

After many years, Malus eventually returned to Hag Graef, where, with the backing of Malekith, he became the new Drachau, lord of the city. Traditionally, the Drachau of Hag Graef is also the general of the Witch King's armies. Nowadays, Malus is one of the preferred servants of Malekith, and upon his bidding, he rides to battle on his loyal and unusually intelligent Cold One Spite with the Warpsword of Khaine in his hand. "
]
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Post by Sezax »

Yes I read Reign of Blood so I know what happens, but how will they make it work is a mystery for me.

Perhaps if they presented Ereth Khial as Dark Mother and explained missing of Hellbron and other Hag Queens in Warpsword than it could still make sense...

I would also love the return of Gilead in some form...he was great...a character with real story and personality...

Sons of Ellyrion were quite good, altough their sticking with retcon about Eltharion was ridiculous...they also created even more confusing matters such as Asuryan creating Elves at Isle of Dead and even more contradicting ideas about elven gods.

And Morathi was great, I would love some BL novel with Morathi as main protagonist.
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Post by Nightcall »

I'd never got 'round to getting my hands on Reign of Blood and had no idea that was in there. Thanks! (I've ordered a copy! ;) )

I agree with you, the whole set up at Har Ganeth made an interesting read, but it was a bit odd. I would have expected to see the Hag Vandress at the Temple there.

I guess that is the problem when you have multiple authors writing books and fluff. Even WHFRP clashes with the tabletop fluff at times. And each time a book comes out, it leaves you scratching your head a bit, huh.

You'll be pleased to hear that there is another Gilead tale out there. It is in the Age of Legend compendium.
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Post by Mrdark12 »

Is there going to be another Malus Darkblade book coming out, I thought the final book ended with a cliff hanger.
And I think I must be one of the few that dislikes the idea of a chaos/Dark Elf army, Dark Elves don't need chaos help. Though it would definitely be nice to see another Dark Elf main book, with a Dark Elf as the Protagonist.
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Post by Sezax »

Actually I think most DE players hate idea of Chaos Elves and some of us dont like Chaos as whole, but love Slaaneshi Elves at the same time. Seems many BL authors like that as well ever since that idea emerged in SoC. The biggest idea is connection between Forest Spirits and Slaaneshi Daemons.

I am so happy about Gilead!!!
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Post by Mrdark12 »

I liked SoC, thought it was pretty fun to read (I never took part) but I hated the Slaaneshi thing, I like how Elves are weakest to Slanesh becuase that makes sense but I hate how everyone thinks that the Dark Elves are just a another chaos faction, and Morathi doesn't help.
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Post by Sezax »

I think most DE players hate the idea of Chaos Elves, we like the druchii as arrogant independent proud bastards, who answer to nobody. We hate the idea of being puppets, we are supposed to be the ones who manipulate.

I hate Chaos Undivided, I hate Tzeentch, I hate Khorne even more and I hate Nurgle most. But I love Slaanesh.

I refuse retcons. Artist should never cling to retcon. Its pathetic. Morathi worshipped Slaanesh, at the battle of Finuval plaine thousands DE crossbowmen praised Slaanesh. The end. I refuse to acknowledge retcons. I prefer to combine all contradicting versions into the most sensible combination.

That why my DE see Morai Heg as C´Tan turned into elved god, Slaanesh as son of Asuryan and Morai Heg, Cytharai as children of Slaanesh and Ereth Khial.

I love cytharai, but I refuse to pretend that Bel Shanaar was never accussed of worshipping Slaanesh, because Gav Thorpe wrote a book. I instead make it seem as that worshipping cytharai means worshipping Slaanesh secondary as well, so all versions of ABs make some sort of sense (including BL novels).

I also dont like idea of DE as slaves of Chaos. I like the idea of DE as allies of Slaanesh.

Thats why I dont like new fluff. Gav Thorpe has wrote this to me:

"On March 7, 2011 at 11:40 am gavthorpe:
On Slaanesh – Back when we were rewriting the High Elves and Dark Elves, there was much discussion with Rick Priestley and Alan Merrett regarding the relationship between elves and Slaanesh. The conclusion reached was that it seemed highly strange that the elves would worship one Chaos God in its ‘raw’ form (Slaanesh) whilst simultaneously worshipping another (Khorne) in a elfified version (Khaine). So it was decided that while a few of the highest-ranking cult members might know the true power bein worshipped (Morathi, and later Malekith and maybe a few others) it would be unpalatable to the vast majority of elves, hence the debasement of the cytherai into the Cults of Pleasure. It is part of the insidious corruption of Chaos that one can be the pawns of the gods without even knowing it!"

So basically new fluff is a compromise. You can either be a DE player, who BELIEVES, just as his DEs foolishly do, that druchii have their own elven gods and that Chaos has no power over them.

Or you can be that smart DE player, who knows that most druchii are dumb enough to worship Nethu, but too proud to call it Nurgle.

Either way I dont like it. Why? Because not only are we dumb, we are also no longer warhammer elves.

Chaos undivided is ugly and stupid. We are neither.

I liked that Elves are supposed to have weakness for Slaanesh (almost) only as it was stated in Liber Chaotica.

We used to spit at Nurgle, because we used to be almost immortal and resistant to diseases. We had no fear of mortalitly or pestilence. No longer. Now Nurgle is wiping out our arks and cities by one plague and we worshipp him as Nethu without even getting full profit from it. AND HE IS UGLY!

We used to laugh at Tzeentch, cause we did not need his gifts, because we were superior spellcasters by nature and we were too smart to expect him to keep his end of the bargain. No more. Now even Morathi is tossing her sorcerers into his flames for some stupid veil, while telling her nazi commoners, she just likes to party with Hekarti.

Khorne could never get us without pretending to be gayer Khaine, cause even as Witch Elves and executers we like to look pretty after taking blood-spa when crushing skulls.

We are no longer race with specific traits. We used to be demigods, whose only flaw was hedonism and pride. Now we are just taller humans, who unlike real humans do not even benefit properly from kissing Chaos backside, cause we are too ,,proud" to do it with open eyes.

Fortunately I think Slaaneshi Elves cannot be retconned simply because of 40000. No matter how separate you want the universes to be, one can never ignore the birth of Slaanesh from eldar souls. BL writers generally see this as well and I am glad and I hope that in next AB DE are either completely separated from Chaos by another huge retcon, or we return to Slaaneshi weakness.

Gaynerds like me love the idea of Slaanesh seeing DE as tools to defeat his only real rivals (other Chaos Gods). I like to consider Slaanesh as an ELVEN CHAOS GOD and those three losers as three HUMAN Chaos gods with no power over us.
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Post by Omnichron »

I hate the idea of the dark elves as mere puppets of chaos gods. Why not just call us Elves of Chaos then?

Druchii has in the fluff been one of the major forces, and most likely the biggest part of the elves of old who faced the chaos. Dark Elves, as they are now, still fight chaos on their northern borders. Of course, the dark elf race has been slowly twisted more to the extremes, but I'd think they would still be in control of themselves and a clear opponent of chaos.

Lets say that Malekith succeeded in taking the throne, and was the ruler of all elves, who'd been the number one enemy? Most likely the same enemy the elves have fought since their beginning, Chaos.

Anyways, I have more the wishes of one strong dark elf race which is between the naive goodie goodie elves and the most evil and twisted of them all, Chaos. I just think it makes the race less interesting if it all concludes with all the elven gods just being Chaos gods with other words.

I hate it, and it makes me wonder: Is every single god which just has a pinch of the bad sides to them a chaos god now? I'd love the dark elf gods to be ELVEN and 100% against any chaos god even if they resemble them by parts... guess that won't happen as everything turns into being just a part of chaos by now.
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Post by Drainial »

@Sezax: At one point Khaine was 100% stated to be the same god as Khorne, it seems to me that what you do is more like picking the retcons you don't like and ignoring them, not ignoring them all. That is fine but you should know what you are really doing.

Personally I like Chaos but I don't think that any race other than Chaos should worship them as a standard thing. The empire is plenty corrupted by chaos, it remains an anti chaos faction despite many cults at all levels of society, I see no reason why dark elves should be any different. I have no idea what way GW will go with it but that is the way I view them. Storm of Chaos was great in my view; it wasn't all of DE society turning to Slaanesh it was just those that did coming out into the light for a while.
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Post by Omnichron »

Drainial wrote:@Sezax: At one point Khaine was 100% stated to be the same god as Khorne, it seems to me that what you do is more like picking the retcons you don't like and ignoring them, not ignoring them all. That is fine but you should know what you are really doing.


I must have missed where that was stated as 100%

It has been implied that Khaine might be, or that he is an aspect of Khorne, however I haven't seen the fluff telling us that, nor do I like the idea of the elven gods just being a mask for chaos gods.
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Post by Drainial »

It is very old, like 2nd ed or something like that, maybe 3rd, but still it is there.
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Post by Sezax »

Actually during 6th edition both ABs and BL works only presented opinions of Empire scholars, who were sure Khaine was Khorne.

I said I try to put contradicting canons and BL into most sensible compromise, I also do not wish to offend anyone, I just think retcon should be a taboo, its like spitting into our nerd faces for being so admiring fans of these artists.

On one hand I have 40000, where Khaine and Khorne are clearly separate beings.

On the other hand I have old DE AB with Witch Elf of KHAINE with CLEAR mark of KHORNE...

So yes I choose explanation, which explains both and which suits fanatical gaynerd.

Khaine is bastard born from affair between Ereth Khial and Khorne (she was mad at Slaanesh for cheating on her with Loec). Later Khorne also stole ,,spirit imprint" of Widowmaker in Realm of Chaos from Tzeentch as stated in new AB. Thus I can still consider Khaine and Khorne separate, while explaining while some DE worship Slaanesh or Khorne, while others worship Atharti or Khaine.
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Post by Nightcall »

Ooh, this is getting confusing.

I have read that Ereth Khial is mother to Khaine and Anath Raema. Nethu is also one of her sons. I can't ever recall reading who the father was, but it was not Asuryan (the only elven god considered more powerful than Ereth Khial in the version I read) as he shunned her advances.

In the version I saw, Nethu guards the door to the underworld. I can see how he can be seen to be affiliated with Nurgle though, as as well as being able to tease an elf's spirit from their body with his silver harp, if an elf is cursed and marked for him, they suffer a wasting illness. Some elves also wear wear charms of Nethu to ward against illness. He seems to me though to be more like Gwyn ap Nudd from the Mabinogion than Nurgle.

I'm sorry I can't remember the sources right now... if I find them I'll post them. It may have been the Tome of Salvation.
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Post by Sezax »

Nightcall, you are absolutelty right, those sentences about family tree of deities are made up by me, I thought it was clear when I was quoting canon and when I was presenting my ,,compromise".

By the way has anyone here read the Hour of Shadows? It shows the most interesting compromise between retcons (right after Liber Chaotica).
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Post by Nightcall »

:) Ah, Sezax, in my statement about things being confusing, I meant GW lore more than your post. They need a good sort out! Sit the writers around a table with all the different variations, and agree on one official canon. At present it is a bit of a mess. *muffled scream of frustration is heard* It's a GM's nightmare!!
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Post by Saintofm »

I was under the impression that at one point all the gods were pretty much variations of the name of the 4 main chaos gods, and then as edditions went on, they became more different.

Khaine, the thing that sets him off from being a variation of Khorn is the fact that, well, Khaine cares not how the blood is spilt so long as it is. He likes close combat better because it looks so pretty when it's sprayed on the killer, but he can care less so long as it isn't of natural causes (although a dagger in the back, and thrown from a very great height tend to be natural enough to dark elves).

Why does this matter? Khorne does care. You have to be angrey and brutal. Any finesse, or any enjoyment of it will AID his big rival, Slannesh.

Back on the main topic, it seems offical fluff can't get away from it eaither. If you have the bigger version, since I think that's the one with all the fluff, of the main rule book, it tells you strait up that Slanneh loves elves as breaking the proud race to his will is much more satisfying.

If Slannesh comes back in the New DE book, I;ll be fine with that so long as it stays in the realm of a few cults and Morathi.
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Post by Sezax »

Yes in old Chaos AB they really made that impression. In new Chaos AB Chaos Gods are much more anthropomorphic and clearly separated from other gods such as Loec.

In old DE AB I started to hate Khaine whether he was Khorne or not. My issue was that he and Malekith have made druchii weak and stupid. Druchii killed each other constantly and that prevented them from claiming back Ulthuan.

If you are thousands years old you have to know, that treachery and egoism are good when it comes to competion inside one race, but fatal when it comes to competion between races.

So in old AB we were wasting so much of our slaves and citizens to rituals, death nights and purges without any profit. It seemed so stupid. We gained nothing in return. Temple claimed nonsense like that Black dragons, manticores and harpies are avatars of Khaine and we bought it. Exec., witches and assasins were ordinary mortals without real blessing from their god. Witches were ordinary drugged women witch poisoned weapons. We gave away prosperity and sense of our nation and gained nothing in return.

I also wish to apologize to Dranial, because I love his army lore, and druchii with their sorcery and love for plotting can actually make interesting cultists of Tzeentch, but I just generally dont like idea of Elves willingly being too obviously manipulated...
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