How do we the Druchii keep losing?

[Marxesperat]

Basically this is just a question for the people who really know their stuff, I have read the Army Books for the history but havn't read any of the bigger black library books.

I'm just wondering, how do the High Elves kept surviving? The book just shows it off as bad luck or the weakness of some subordinates but I'm just curious as to how, every time the attacks get worse, Malekith gains more power, more High Elves are killed and more of Ulthuan is invaded each time, at least the book implies. So how have the Druchii repeatedly lost? Over Ambition? Bad luck? I refuse to accept that the Asur are superior to the Druchii, considering the fact that the Druchii are lead by two Immortals both fluffwise with untold power while the Asur have none, sure Tyrion and Teclis are pretty lethal but fluffwise Tyrion was nearly killed by a greater Deamon of Slaanesh.

This is more for just understanding as I would like to know a bit more and unfortunately I don't really have time to be able to read all of the books atm.

[Saintofm]

Most of this si guestamacation but

1. Infighgting. The Main method of strengthening the druchii by making everyone always strong enough to defend themselves, and weed out those who cannot, also breaks things down. Everyone is interested in their own glory, and will find the most in opertune time to god it. There is also the little fact in the battlefeild, its a perfect time to kill off a rival or domestic a threat from back home, despite their much needed military prowess or planning mastery.

2. "Allies acting like idiots." If they decide to go with chaos, they have to deal with them doing likewise. Even when there is an ever chosen, the 4 gods are always fighting eachother.

3. Tyrion and Teclis are two Christal Dragon Jesuses.

[Dalamar]

There's only one reason.

If Dark Elves were to win, Warhammer World would cease to exist as Morathi would do everything in her power to unravel the vortex and unleash the winds of chaos in their full strength. The resulting invasion would wipe out everything. Thus ending the game.

Any other explanation is fluff coverup to make sure the above doesn't happen. Warhammer World hasn't changed in over 25 years of its existence.

[Marxesperat]

Oh I know the Business side of why they should not win as the Dark Elves would enslave every race thus WHFB would be a very interesting game in which players build a Dark Elf Army and represent a house and fight each other.

As for the fluff I suppose that is true, I know Malekith can only be in one place and he is a little scared of Teclis and the ally situation makes sense.

Cheers, I was just curious :p.

[T.D.]

We are the "baddies". Thus we have to be beaten in order for the "goodies" to win.

No one wants to pick up a High Elf army book and find it containing all empty pages save one sentence:

The Dark Elves were here. They killed you all.

Maybe we do But certainly not GW!

[Daeron]

The fluff puts us at a stalemate. But if it's any consolation... Wasn't Har Ganeth named after the one time the High Elves invaded Naggaroth? The Dark Elves made a field trip out of it. The battle didn't last very long, but apparently it was so much fun that the Dark Elves still celebrate the day. I should look into my (older) AB's to get the details right.

[Underway]

As the timeline hasn't advanced since the Storm of Chaos and actually went backwards to reset for 7th ed, the dark elves don't "keep losing". In reading the DE current fluff there are plenty of battles where the DE are the winners, even against the high elves (Lokhir doesn't lose very much...). At the end of the day the DE will never take Ulthuan because the timeline doesn't advance anymore. There will be battle and invasions etc... but as the timeline essentially doesn't advance then nothing will change.

Not to mention objectives are often different for both sides, IE: Tullaris wants to kill in Khaines name and the HE just want to drive the DE's away. Both objectives can be met in the same battle thus providing 2 winners!

[xFallenx]

There's only one reason.

If Dark Elves were to win, Warhammer World would cease to exist as Morathi would do everything in her power to unravel the vortex and unleash the winds of chaos in their full strength. The resulting invasion would wipe out everything. Thus ending the game.

Any other explanation is fluff coverup to make sure the above doesn't happen. Warhammer World hasn't changed in over 25 years of its existence.

Killjoy! How very Druchii of you.

[Dalamar]

What I would love to see is a bit of an update with each edition, a little back and forth. For example:

9th edition comes around, druchii have made a considerable landfall in the shadowlands and rebuilt anlec (it's actually pre-fabricated and transported over )
Couple this with a few new rules for shadow warriors and dark riders.

High elves reestablished connection with their colonies
Maybe a new high elf unit straight from Ind?

Dwarfs reclaimed a lost thaig... I mean stronghold
Recovered long lost runic lore?

Chaos spread south and nordland is now an infested wasteland

Etc.

Then in 10th edition things can change again!

[Haagrum]

I refer to this as the "High Elf Ice Cube Phenomenon". Put simply - if any other race has an ice cube, and High Elves also have an ice cube, the High Elf ice cube will be colder (or otherwise just better at being an ice cube for any given relevant criterion).

Cases in point - the concept of ithilmar (created solely so 4th ed. HE heavy cavalry could charge further than Bretonnians); Speed of Asuryan (no explanation required, I hope - thankfully, what I knew as "Troke's Abject Failure Of Biology" is being rectified); Civilian Levy (now known as Martial Prowess, which was brutal before Step Up came around); a monopoly on High Magic (until the Slann got it back, despite being the ones who taught it to the High Elves in the first place); actually-useful and reasonably-priced Lord choices other than the standard Prince and Archmage; 7th edition Teclis.

In fairness to us, in canon, we only lost the Battle of Finuval Plain because:
1. Malekith made plans for losing and sent most of his best troops away in advance;
2. Teclis is a walking deus ex machina for bad writers (arguably not as egregious as it was in Storm of Chaos);
3. Morathi still loves her dead husband, even after several thousand years; and
4. Malekith is probably more dangerous now than ever, since the implication in the stories about Malekith's behaviour post-Finuval Plain is that Teclis's spell was a once-only option that will not work a second time.

As an aside, I liked the 6th edition Eltharion concept - he gave the High Elves some actual tragic depth of character.

We are the "baddies". Thus we have to be beaten in order for the "goodies" to win.

No one wants to pick up a High Elf army book and find it containing all empty pages save one sentence:

The Dark Elves were here. They killed you all.

Maybe we do But certainly not GW!

I'd take that. When the inevitable questions of "what will the Dark Elves do now?" or "is it worth the price they paid?" come up, the answer will be "back in line, slaves!"

[T.D.]

"High Elf Ice Cube Phenomenon".

I like this

They are truly the spoiled brats of FB!

Tbf in our most recent AB the spin on events is much more positive towards the dark side. So the writers are doing a better job of portraying both sides, as well as adding to the drama.

Also, nice idea on the shifting timeline, Dalamar.



Note to Self: I failed on the "one sentence". Maybe that is why we keep losing

[Kargan daemonclaw]

It's also that the two Elven Kingdoms are evenly matched and it's easier to defend your home ground that it is to attack.

You could as easily ask why the High elves have not wiped the Dark Elves out. It's very hard to invade another country accroos an ocean away from your lines of supply. There are plenty of historical examples where that has happened.

I thought the background material advanced quite a bit in the latest book. the DE are descriebd as having wiped out several high elf colonies around the world including the one on Nagarroth. That never happened before. Also the idea of thee DE using intermediaries to fight battles for them is new.

[Calisson]

I second 100% Kargan daemonclaw.
- Defense is easier than attack and the two forces are balanced, which makes a stalemate predictable until some breaking point changes the meta - which has not been the case yet.
- The Druchii are not losing, rather they are making regular progress campaign after campaign, but did not reach the final victory ...yet.

[Mahlek]

It can all be explained with two very simple words;

Plot Armour.

We are chaos, they are order. If the Druchii win, the plot collapses.

[Kargan daemonclaw]

If order wins the plot collapses. If the high elves and the Slann win they have everyone marching in lock steps toward completing the Slann's grand designs. That's equally boring, refer to Michael Moorcock for reference.

[Dalamar]

Not really, you will have Empire thinking they are smarter than the elves. dwarfs, wood elves and brettonians ignoring everyone else etc.

Presence of the forces of destruction is really the only thing that keeps the forces of order away from each others' throats.

[Kargan daemonclaw]

ahh so you propose genocide by the Slann as no one will be able to keep in alignment with their plans. Same result though. As long as there are order and disorder there will be conflict and therefore a good universe for gaming.

As soon as everyone is in agreement whether by choice or force then it's wargame over man.

[Sarathalu]

There's only one reason.

If Dark Elves were to win, Warhammer World would cease to exist as Morathi would do everything in her power to unravel the vortex and unleash the winds of chaos in their full strength. The resulting invasion would wipe out everything. Thus ending the game.

Any other explanation is fluff coverup to make sure the above doesn't happen. Warhammer World hasn't changed in over 25 years of its existence.

Along the same lines, this is why Archaon - arguably the most dangerous Chaos warlord to roam the Old Word in several centuries, leading the largest army ever seen - failed in his quest to conquer the Empire. Not because Valten, the Exalted of Sigmar, actually beat him in combat, but because it would have killed any meaningful fluff for the Warhammer universe if Chaos had won.

However, I contend that there could be some very interesting possibilities for the Warhammer universe had Archaon's horde actually carried the day. But that's speculation for another time....

[Scalenex]

Both the High Elves and the Dark Elves should have a low fertility rate. If High Elves and Dark Elves have the same number of babies, the High Elves would nearly always outnumber the Dark Elves.

Every level of leadership tries to assassinate their rivals or would-be rivals. Assassins are so well entrenched in society that they will kill Dark Elves for fun. Even on the low levels there is much backstabbing.

Dread Lords kill people who step too close to them without permission.

Note the Black Guard. It's all fine and good that Malekith has the candidates fight to the death to join his guard and has would be captains challenge each other to the death, but why kill the mother's of Black Guard candidates? Particularly since Black Guard candidates come from families known for their loyalty. Those are the last people Malekith should be killing. He should make his Black Guard from orphans of rivals he slain.

Sorceresses kill a lot of elves to power their magic. Most of the male sorcerers are killed because Malekith cannot see that the prophecy about the male sorcerer killing him refers to Malekith (my educated guess).

Witch Elves kill their allies at the end of a battle if they don't have enough blood on them. On holidays they have a free pass to kill random elf civilians.

Many would-be Cold One Riders and Hydra handlers are eaten. Even if they succeed, Cold One Riders are described as sliming themselves to take a pleasing scent for Cold Ones, but this kills their sense of smell and touch. That pretty much means they will no longer reproduce so from a evolutionary standpoint they are dead.

Now you factor in that when the Dark Elves are not invading Ulthuan they are out raiding everywhere. the High Elves pretty much stay in Ulthuan and rebuild during down time while Dark Elves die in small brush fire conflicts.

Dark Elves have slave labor so they can field more soldiers but since pretty much every High Elf is a citizen soldier that cancels out. Nearly 100% of the Elves of Naggoroth and Ulthuan are soldiers. Ulthuan is a lot more fertile. It's all fine and good to work slaves to death, but all the slaves that are killed for lolz reduce their productivity.

Skaven can get away with this auto-genocide behavior because they breed very fast. Beastmen breed fast too and they don't infight much besides leaders. Orcs and Goblins come from spores. Undead can reanimate their losses very easily. Daemons never truly die. The Dark Elf book describes High Elves as pretty much biologically the same as High Elves. The same plot armor that keeps the High Elves alive also lets the Dark Elves always have massive numbers despite no reason to. While the High Elf book talks about their declining numbers. This is hand waved for the Dark Elves (and the Warriors of Chaos too since they kill each other a lot and come from an area with no arable land) because the bad guys are always supposed to be massive hordes.

Also, I do not understand why Malekith always takes the Shadowlands and pushes south. Dark Elves are master sailors and they have portable floating fortresses. if they sailed south they sail around the Phoenix, Dragon, Unicorn and Griffon Gates. In World War II, the Maginot Line was truly inpenetrable. That's why the Germans went around it to take France.

[Red...]

However, I contend that there could be some very interesting possibilities for the Warhammer universe had Archaon's horde actually carried the day. But that's speculation for another time....

Yes indeed, it might have ushered in an unparalleled period of chaos and conflict - maybe they could dub it something like THE END TIMES!

[Daeron]

The whole fertility argument is interesting but I sincerely doubt any writer of Warhammer fluff every bothered with such details. They contradict themselves in every book, almost in the same sentence: "every soldier, every man, woman and child of the entire Empire stood there in defense of their homes, weapon in hand.... Luckily two bigger armies from nearby Empire cities came to their aid".

Why do we lose? Why does Gargamel lose? Why does James Bond win?
The outcome is set in stone: it's going to be a narrow victory for the good guys. It has to be a narrow victory to make it more exciting. We are pumped up to be the ultimate badass opponent, not because it makes sense but to glorify the winners. Nobody is going to watch a James Bond movie where he narrowly wins in a heated debate over a tuna sandwich during lunch break. Nah, he's up against the largest evil crime organisations.

Just looking at High Elf fluff, it's always the same:
- "It were desperate times, so they gathered all their troops to an army the size not seen in centuries to fight a desperate battle. They won, but at a cost from which they could never recover"

100 years later:
- "It were desperate times, even more so now. So they gathered all the troops they could find, for such an invasion wasn't seen in millennia. They won, but at a cost from which they could never fully recover."

100 more years later:
- "It were desperate times, for such a foe was not seen from the times since Aenarion. So they united all Kingdoms and fought their desperate battle. They won, but at a cost from which they could never recover."

100 years later:
- "They are about to die and still they are going to march to that one final battle which will cost them so much they will never recover. Armies of such size have never been seen before, and will never be seen again. It truly are desperate times."

My prediction is that, fluff wise, in 100 years we'll get:
- "They hadn't even recovered, but so desperate were the times that they amassed an army bigger than ever! They won, but at a cost from which they would never recover".

The Tyrion and Teclis novels are the pinnacle of this style of writing. "Oh no! N'Kari is out to seek revenge! The Daemon has come back, after millenia! It is a demi god of unfathomable power! Nobody can beat this! Not even us, because our limbs don't work!" Then it is defeated once in the first book. And again in the second book. And again in the third book. And again in the ET books. The writers simply can't come up with a new name (the real challenge of writing) so they'll probably beat N'Kari again in the future. They'll beat it to the point you wonder if it is a Keeper of Secret, the demi-god they describe... or whether it's a target dummy for whomever wants to make a name for himself.

We are so badass we are the immovable object and unstoppable power at the same time, only so that a hero can rise up and, with unimaginable intelligence (meaning any 12 year old can guess his move) discover that our power can be beaten because it is self-contradictory.
And everytime we come back, we're more badass than before.

Imagine the opposite.
- "One does not simply walk into Habukanah!"
"But we're not going to Habukanah, we're going to Mordor."
- "Ohh. Mordor is not so bad. Thank the Lord we're not going to Habukanah."

Victory is assured for the party that will lose, only to make the predetermined, but otherwise completely surprising winning hero even more cunning and powerful. And the victory is never complete to keep a lingering sense of forboding for the future. That is the status quo. This is the same story told in almost every book. In fact, that is what we expect from a book. Even worse: that is what we -want- from a book. That is why the End Time books are somewhat surprising and upsetting, because they are breaking the status quo. Because good and evil are switched around, and people are angry (especially High Elves) because now they lost the certainty that their hero will win.

But sure! We could discuss weapons, life styles and the power of individual characters. I'm sure G.W. has ample models and computer programs to map out what would be realistic to portray in their novels and to realistically model the impact of wars on populations.

[Calisson]

Well, in RL History, a battle was considered very bloody if troops were decimated.
Decimated means 10% casualty, 90% remaining valid. And this is only about the people engaged, when the rest of the population is more or less unharmed.

See the most bloody battles in the History of "Humanity" (sigh).
A full war before WW1 would hardly ever kill more than 100,000, for the most atrocious.
Epidemics are worse than war.

About DE demographics being curbed down by DE bloody habits, take into account that the depravity and bloodiness probably concerns no more than a few % - who get all the attention of the novelists.
Also, a tale such as Malus Darkblade concerns one single and exceptional individual, and is spread over many, many years.