Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

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Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Red... »

So, it looks increasingly as though GW might be going down the route of synthesizing the army choices for Warhammer.

Currently, we have 15 choices: High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Chaos Warriors, Vampire Counts, Ogres, Orcs and Goblins, Dwarfs, Empire, Brettonia, Lizardmen, Skaven, Beastmen, and Daemons.

By my reckoning, there's a reasonable possibility that they may combine it to: Elves (High Elves, Dark Elves, and Wood Elves combined), Greenskins (Orcs and Goblins and Ogres Conbined), Humans (Empire and Brettonia combined) Chaos (Beasts, Warriors, and Daemons Combined), Undead (Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts), Dwarfs, Skaven, and Lizardmen. That's just 8. And in all honesty, from the fluff accounts of Lizards, I'm not sure they're even going to make the chop (last sighted heading despondently off from Lustria into the mists of squatdom).

The above is pure speculation, based upon my own cynical readings thus far, on this forum and elsewhere. What do you guys think? Is that going to be the future?

And possibly more importantly, what will happen to Druchii.net, Ulthuan.net, and Asrai.net if we do re-fix together the sundered realms of elfdom? I've already noticed so dubbed well-wishers from the other two forums on here attempting to lure druchii folk over to their forums for competitions, tea and cakes, and so on. Are we going to have a turf war over which of these three sites becomes the core of the new, enhanced, bigger and better (except for from a fluff or game point of view) "Elves R Us" forum? Will Druchii.net survive, or is this forum - like Tyrion as he pulled forth the widowmaker - truly facing oblivion as a result of the end times?
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Haagrum »

The first, instinctive response to upheaval is to speculate that the sky is falling in.

I'm not too worried at this stage.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Calisson »

What seems reasonable an assumption:
- Elves (High Elves, Dark Elves, and Wood Elves)
- Humans (Empire and Brettonia)
- Chaos (Beasts, Warriors, and Daemons)
- Undead (Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts)

What is more speculative:
- Humanoids (Orcs and Goblins, Ogres, Dwarfs - add chaos Dwarfs and you'll see the link)
- Half-humans (Skaven, Lizardmen)
That's 6.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by T.D. »

Evolution is life :)
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Daeron »

A solid streamlined core book, with 8 to 10 races and more campaign-styled "seasons" would be a more modern and probably more manageable game than the current status. In terms of gaming, just the gaming, it could be a new era and more fun focused all-round. Where that leaves us fluff-wise... I have no idea.

As for the websites, I'm not worried. I don't mind change, I don't mind staying where it is. I see enough positives for either scenario really :)
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Aicanor »

Red... wrote:And possibly more importantly, what will happen to Druchii.net, Ulthuan.net, and Asrai.net if we do re-fix together the sundered realms of elfdom? I've already noticed so dubbed well-wishers from the other two forums on here attempting to lure druchii folk over to their forums for competitions, tea and cakes, and so on.
Yes, join us, we have cookies. !lol! They are a bit wet and salty at the moment, but that is a minor inconvenience.
For the record, I do own a Dark Elf army. ;)

I am told reboots and restarts are kind of fashionable these days so we may be in for even more surprises. But I still don't think they are going to officially invalidate army books just yet.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Let's assume that indeed 9th edition is going to bring unified armies as suggested. A lot still depends on what kind of game we are going to have rules-wise. However, the fate of the forums does not only depend on existing factions. I don't know what it takes to maintain the forum but I presume that admins and mods of each of 3 forums might not want to give up their privileged positions in the name of a "greater good of unification". Especially, that they might not be even members on the other two forums or are just regulars. And each forum might claim to have reasons to keep going as they are anyway, simply because the Elves are far from united. The divisions might run in different places now but they are still there.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by CitizenKhaine »

Reds speculation looks sound :?
Which means I was a little hasty selling off my warriors of chaos and empire to just concentrate on daemons and dark elves. I was hoping for a reboot of the cult of Slaanesh, sigh...
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Daeron »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I don't know what it takes to maintain the forum but I presume that admins and mods of each of 3 forums might not want to give up their privileged positions in the name of a "greater good of unification". Especially, that they might not be even members on the other two forums or are just regulars.


Well.. the technicians might not mind as much as the mods and owners :P
But it would be a challenge to bring the communities together, technically as much as socially. No community should accept losing content or users. That's the key issue, I think.

The merger of the databases would be a complex matter, far exceeding the complexity of installing and administrating the forum. I know I can do it, but it's not a 10-minute job. Rather, think in terms of months. At least, if we want to have it done "the right way".
Ofc, it would be technically easier to just set up a new community and get going on that one... But then you lose years of wonderful history. In my experience, people rarely want to lose the history, their plogs, their stories etc. That's why communities tend to get stay where they are.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Makiwara »

Someone could just start an Elthin Arvan forum dedicated to the combined elven race and let it be populated with whatever information can be 'salvaged' from the other sites and by those members who want to join. Sort of like a internet exodus to mirror the fluff exodus. :lol:
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Calisson »

Seriously, it is highly premature to talk about merging the three Elven websites.
End Times does not nullify WH:8th.

Let's see what comes out of WH:9th, it wil lbe time to act.
Also, viewing that there is a specific forum about "Papa Nurgle", it seems that even if we get merged army books (still to be confirmed), we might keep some distinctive traits allowing distinctive forums to keep thriving.

Here in D.net, we made a new special ET section just to deal with ET.
That section might well evolve into a "merged" section if WH:9 happens to go in that direction.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Daeron »

True enough, Calisson. Which is also a reason why I'm not worried. We're a long way from doing anything so drastically. Even when it occurs, there is plenty of time to react.

Makiwara wrote:Someone could just start an Elthin Arvan forum dedicated to the combined elven race and let it be populated with whatever information can be 'salvaged' from the other sites and by those members who want to join. Sort of like a internet exodus to mirror the fluff exodus. :lol:


It sounds easy doesn't it? It would be the easiest way, technically, but it's a bigger concession than you make it sound. It's also the reason why such initiatives often fail, in my limited experience. It demands a lot of effort from the individual members... which is guaranteed to come at a price.

So I wouldn't be hasty.. or worried for the time being.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Red... »

True, this thread may be a little premature...

...But barring a fundamental retcon of all of the ET events (not inconceivable I'll give you), it's hard to see how we could end up with any outcome in 9th edition other than a unified elven list.

Calisson wrote:What is more speculative:
- Humanoids (Orcs and Goblins, Ogres, Dwarfs - add chaos Dwarfs and you'll see the link)


I think you may be onto something there Calisson, but I wonder whether they might cram dwarfs in alongside humans rather than Ogres and Orcs and Goblins - from a game-play point of view, they have a lot of the same components (artillery defended by steel blocks of infantry - the main difference being that the humans have cavalry and magic). The fluff would be easy enough: dwarfs forced out of their tunnels by goblins and skaven emerge into the surface world and throw their lot in with the humans, as they no longer have anywhere else to go.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Clockwork »

End Times is a transition phase. We don't know where this is going to end up as we're only now halfway through, and given the massive upheavals to date I think it's unproductive to speculate what that end point might be.

That being said, GW is a business. More books they can produce = more income. From a business model perspective, it wouldn't make much sense for them to cut the number of books in half.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Red... »

More books they can produce = more income. From a business model perspective, it wouldn't make much sense for them to cut the number of books in half.

This is slightly flawed. A wider range of products that sell at a low level is usually less preferable to a smaller range of products that sell huge numbers. GW would much prefer to have fewer books to sell, and to sell them at much higher volumes, which is exactly what compressing the number of books down would do. Cutting the number of book types they offer does not cut the number of books actual that they sell - it just reduces the onus on them to keep stocking all 15 types (instead they can do 6-8), and so reduces their risk of having stocks that sit in the warehouse shelves and do not sell.

To illustrate:
Let's say that a GW store has 10 copies of the high elf army book on its shelf and 10 copies of the wood elf army book. In a given month, it sells all 10 copies of the high elf army book, but only 3 of the wood elf army book. The store owner re-orders another 10 high elf army books, which take several days to arrive, resulting in opportunity losses (while restocking, any potential customer coming into the store to purchase the high elf army book cannot do so, and may take their business elsewhere). He then sells another 6 copies. At the end of the month, he is still stuck with 7 wood elf army books on his shelf, which means he has paid to stock 10, but only sold 3, as well as 4 copies of the high elf army book, resulting in a superficial loss. Now imagine that instead, the GW store has a combined high elf and wood elf army book. The store stocks 20 copies, 3 of which are purchased by the wood elf players and 16 of which are purchased by the high elf players. He has no need to re-stock and he has just one book left on the shelf at the end of the month. This is probably a terrible example and I'm not explaining this very well, but hopefully it kind of gets the gist across... the more types of product you have, the more risk you incur that some items will outsell expectations (and thus stock), creating to losses through unrealized sales, and that some items will not meet expectations, thus leaving you unsold stock on the shelf. By reducing the number of books, GW would reduce its risks.

Other business advantages would include:
- Everyone would have to buy a new book. This would be a tremendous surge of income, as players from two or three different factions at a time would have to purchase new books in order to stay legal gamewise. One of the lessons that GW seems to have learned in recent years is that rule/army books can sell for huge amounts of money, but require little maintenance and can be easily discarded without any hard feelings felt by the community.
- Huge blow to all of the second tier of miniature manufacturers out there who trade using pseudo-GW products. Many manufacturers, such as Blacktree Designs, offer ranges that essentially mirror the GW ranges (e.g. dark elves, high elves, sylvan elves, etc). GW changing stream suddenly would cause a huge problem, as they would have to either spend huge amounts of money recreating their ranges, or else risk losing customers as their products become irrelevant.
- Huge blow to all of the groups that GW sees as using their IP. "Dark Elves", "Wood Elves" and "High Elves" are all uncopyrightable, in the same way that "Imperial Guard" and "Space Marines" are uncopyrightable. So it should be no surprise to see GW lurch towards the "Astra Militarum" solution by creating a new elf line that has its own name and can be copyrighted.
- Increased ease of advertising - I imagine trying to advertise 15 different armies all at once: it's hard to even remember them all, let alone promote them all. So, some ranges get under promoted and their communities dwindle and stagnate (no offense to hardened woodies, but before the new book, sightings of wood elf players were becoming rarer than leprechauns at the end of the rainbow).
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Rork »

I would observe that GW has typically struggled to get it right with armies that have a large number of units. While the Elf armies allow several similar units to be 'collapsed' into one entry in some fashion (Executioners/Swordmasters for example), the likes of Chaos does not allow for that (bar 2 or 3 entries).

You end up with a book with a vast array of units where most are chaff and only a handful are generally considered viable. Any combination of Dwarfs and humans would suffer in a similar way.

So colour me sceptical. GW have pulled stunts like this before and very little of the rules introduced survived beyond the next round of army books. Warhammer is clearly changing, but whether it's going to change as much as we think remains to be seen. The most cynical view is that it just gets people to buy stuff from other armies, setting them up nicely for when their allied army gets a new army book all of its own.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Aicanor »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Let's assume that indeed 9th edition is going to bring unified armies as suggested. A lot still depends on what kind of game we are going to have rules-wise. However, the fate of the forums does not only depend on existing factions. I don't know what it takes to maintain the forum but I presume that admins and mods of each of 3 forums might not want to give up their privileged positions in the name of a "greater good of unification". Especially, that they might not be even members on the other two forums or are just regulars. And each forum might claim to have reasons to keep going as they are anyway, simply because the Elves are far from united. The divisions might run in different places now but they are still there.
I second Daeron and others that the privilege of maintaining a forum is the least concern when it comes to merging sites. It is the community that can suffer the most. And that it is too soon in any case.

It is still difficult to guess the course GW had taken, but I think the next book will be a good indication. If it brings new Skaven rules, then I would say the End Times are going to be embedded in new edition. If not, I would guess at three timelines available for regular play - one that is practically just modified 8th, End Times and smaller post apocalyptic games (rumoured skirmish game with merged armies).
Or they could just send us, Lizards and all into 40k universe. :lol:
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

If admins and mods are as ruthless as Malekith, as manipulative as Teclis or as opportunistic as Imrik then they would not stop from achieving their goals because of the "community". They sacrificed Naggaroth and Ulthuan, why would not do it again in the cyber world :)

Joking aside I am aware that the main challenge would be merging the contents of 3 different forums without losing identities and posts of the members. I remember not that recent problems with server update on Ulthuan and that was "just" an update, not merging. I can imaging some kind of deal between the respective owners would have to be struck too.

However, not so long time ago an idea of Elven raced merged together was considered insane. While we still don't know if 9th edition is going to be a continuation of ET it is now a possibility. There is no harm in discussing that possibility so that this time, maybe, people will be prepared and will know what they want to do.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Calisson »

The mere voluntary presence here of distinguished members of Ulthuan.net, discussing unharmed, is a sure sign that the End Times is nigh. :roll:
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

How come an outcast is a distinguished member? :P
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Amboadine »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:How come an outcast is a distinguished member? :P


We Druchii value Outcasts differently of course :)
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Makiwara »

Yeah, a cv with: have big sword, can swing it, will always be in demand. Hell, you could go full merc and start raking in the gold!
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Daeron »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:There is no harm in discussing that possibility so that this time, maybe, people will be prepared and will know what they want to do.


Heh, I'd be okay with a purely hypothetical discussion. I'd enjoy discussing the technical feasibility and details. I've migrated and consolidated databases for my government so it wouldn't be my first rodeo.
But I'm not a leader of the community. I'm more of a technician and consultant lol.

And I admit I'm a bit worried that it might create the impression that this is a real thing, or will happen, simply because there's discussion around a technical plan for it. I don't want my participation in such discussion to impress people that I'm in favour of it. I don't want my absence from such a discussion to impress people I'm against the merger.

Either is fine by me. Truth be told.. It's not that I don't care (I do care), it's just that I can see myself enjoying either direction the game goes. I'd support "the community" whatever road it takes.
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Makiwara »

Meanwhile isn't it amazing how, while there are people on all three boards railing against the fluff changes there are also people having serious hypothetical and politically driven discussions about the feasibility of bringing what are essentially three governing bodies together? Bureaucracy is honed as fine as a sword in the elven nations and their advocates, it would seem.

!lol!
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Re: Race compression and the end of times for Druchii.net?

Post by Deadsun »

I think so much depends on what this new all elf book may or may not be like.

It is possible that the book may contain several differnt lists to represent eact of the three elven races in addition as the host of the eternal king list, or a set up like the current space marine codex which allows significant bonuses to themeing for the army to each of the three races.

It is likely that said book would include:
a) An introduction to the elves, a bit about each of the elf races (this might not be straight up high, dark, woods but may make other distinctions too - shades, Naggarthye, Caledorians, sea elves etc) and even stop using high /dark/wood elves and replace with Asur/Druchii/Asrai for copyright reasons.
b) History of the elves, this will be reduced by not having from so many different perspecives and told more in a matter of fact way. i think this will be the biggest reduction in content for the new book and would reduce the combined size to print considerably.
c) Unit descriptions, probably for all models currently produced in plastic which could be copied and pasted from the current books. This could be reduced to entrys the size of the reavers of the world section in our book. Alternatively earlier editions (4th in particular) included dreadlords, sorceresses as part of the same page as warriors.
d) Special charcters, this section could be massively reduced after the mass culling of khaine
e) Magic, high and dark magic could be included in the core rulebook or here.
f) Armoury, magic items could be reduced but leave some high/dark/woods only maybe
g) single armylist for each race, with an appendix for HotEK or visa versa

Thinking in these terms a single book opens up just as many opportunities steamline the three elf books into one thicker (and more expensive edition) while there remains space for each type of elves to show their diversity.

It is also worth casting the mind back to 4th edition where there was very little difference between each of the elven races in terms of special rules (or indeed stat lines). Back then each of the races still mainatined a very strong and distinct character with far less detail than there is at present. In this regard even if they remove some of the special rules and mechanics of individual units remaining (im thinking pheonix guard and black guard) the models and the theme will still give you the druchii identity we look for.

Thinking thus the identity of our various races is unlikely to be undermined sufficiently to make abaondoning s strong forum such as this worthwhile.
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