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9th Edition Rumours 
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Clockwork wrote:
Better screens from White Dwarf, including War Scrolls, here: https://twitter.com/lady_atia

I'm increasingly convinced that this is some sort of introduction type ruleset. The lack of any balancing mechanism plus references to past victories (look up the Triumph section) seem to give it away.


Well that is insane. No limiting factors in the size of units. No restrictions on choice. Welcome to the most imbalanced game ever devised.
So we now have a full rules set to consider at least.
I will have to have a run through to decide.

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Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:35 pm
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Allow me to save you the time: it's crap.

Sure, there are some good things. But overall, when you as a company are presented an opportunity like this to reset, and you put this out...yeah...

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Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:52 pm
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lol yeah they're all picking over the rules on warseer. oh dear


Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:01 pm
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Amboadine wrote:
Well that is insane. No limiting factors in the size of units. No restrictions on choice. Welcome to the most imbalanced game ever devised.
Some limits are on scrolls, i.e. limit to 1 for heroes in a unit.
Sure there is no restriction, but there are keywords which indicate advantages to taking units from same faction.

About army list, there are limiting factors.
- you may run out of space, then rest of army is in reserve and cannot come unless summoned by some specific power in a scroll.
- outnumbered player get to chose a "sudden death" scenario. This scenario is chosen after deployment. This includes having a single model surviving at turn 6.


About tactical choices,

note that when one of your units is attacked, you may remove any models from the unit, as far as you want, possibly getting out of range of the next unit set to attack you. Better know the range of the enemies' weapons (including melee weapons).

Also, note that in movement, any unit less than 3" of your unit may only retreat or not move.


Final limitation, when you prepare a game, you may wish to set up limits with gaming partners, such as:
Terrain will be xx by yy. Game will last zz hours max.
Bring no more than x models and no more than y units.


Now, on the lack of balance, there are ways.
Your opponent may come with 99 prosecutors as a single unit. 12" fly move, shoot x2 at 18", 4+ save, 2 wounds.
Good luck. Have fun.
Hopefully there will be scrolls to counter that, rock/scissor/leaf style.

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Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:48 pm
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Well.. I was passed a full scan of the rules (not the pictures) and " hmmm ". There do seem to be gaps in the rules that give the impression that this is not the final version but an introduction ruleset designed for new players. That said, I'll start analyzing the rules in depth :P
I'll also try to get a few games in as soon as the unit rules are up!

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:06 am
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Once the rumour started going around that there would be no larger 'rule book' I immediately thought to myself: well it's not like GW would release a campaign supplement that changed the status quo rules and add to them.

Then I remembered End Times was a thing and now I'm not so worried.

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:10 am
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Red... wrote:
It looks like a very fun game.

It just isn't Warhammer.


Yep, it is a totally new game really, where you can use your old miniatures.

It's a bit funny how some in my local club hates 40k as the rules are so much simplified compared to Warhammer Fantasy... kinda ironic that this new game is a somewhat simplified version of 40k.

Anyways, I think this might have potential as a fun game, but it definitly isn't Warhammer Fantasy Battles as we know it.

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:22 am
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This thread is quite amusing if you have time to read

WTF moments in the AoS rules

My favourites are this;

Cover
- You can shoot through woods or other terrain with no penalty.
- A model standing behind a low wall doesn't benefit from cover. A model standing on top of that wall does.
-- For a unit to benefit, they all need to be standing on top of the wall.

and this;

Attachment:
2015-07-01_10-50-19_545.jpg
2015-07-01_10-50-19_545.jpg [ 55.13 KiB | Viewed 5935 times ]

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:46 am
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It's a funny thread indeed, though not all remarks are valid. I think that's why there's going to be either an update or an expansion adding more specifics :)

Measuring model to model can lead to silly things indeed, but they introduced this as a transition thing for our models, I think.

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:00 pm
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What troubles me most about these new rules is the zealous fervour with which people are already intentionally trying to break them.

It shouldn't be necessary to have a written rule of "These rules are intended to be read to allow gameplay with a minimum of complexity, rather than to obtain an advantage over an opponent. Don't be That Guy. Nobody likes That Guy." People will quickly find themselves either forced into agreeing these things with an opponent prior to playing, or ending up with a bunch of models that never get put onto the table against an opponent (at least, not more than once per opponent).

I cling to the hope that, once the fevered RAW-exploiting has died down a bit, any tournaments will impose their own interpretation so as to avoid WAAC behaviour. Also, modelling for advantage has always been frowned upon (well, by anyone remotely reasonable), and I don't believe that it would be likely to change now.

Personally, I'm incredibly happy that the old "angled base charge deflection" tactic appears to have been given the bullet-and-shovel treatment it has so sorely deserved.

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:30 pm
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The game will be fun for pickup, just rolling some dice and having a laugh. But that's only fun for so long. People want to play games that feel competitive and balanced, and provide some "reward" for all the time spent assembling and painting your models. And, I know that myself and many others really enjoy(ed) the list building part of the hobby - just look at the Army Lists forum here at Druchii.net!

My absolute biggest gripes right now are: (Disclaimer - from what we know *RIGHT NOW*)

1) There are NO customization possibilities AT ALL. No magic items, no Lores, no equipment choices. If this stays as is there's no way I will play this game.

2) All the rules are centred around how many MODELS you have, and their is basically no distinction for elite troops. As such, it seems stupid to bring anything that's not an uber-elite troop. If you both start with a similar number of models, then losing a skavenslave is just as important to the outcome as losing a greater daemon.

3) Removed the To Hit / To Wound charts. Now, hitting and wounding a Bloodthirster is as easy as hitting a Skeleton. Even if they wanted to make this the easiest game in the world to play, this chart is literally the last thing I'd expect to go. To me, this is an absolute TRAVESTY.

4) Turn order within a "Round" is a roll-off. So basically, you can pretty easily get back to back turns (i.e. 2nd turn of Round 3 and 1st turn of Round 4) and butcher someone with Shooting before they can charge/move. Shooting itself is going to be ridiculous, especially when you combine the back to back turns with variable run movement and only a 12" max charge. Those winged guys with 18" throwing hammers and Move 12 can just run around, staying out of a reasonable charge range.

5) The first Command Ability we see is basically "IGNORE THIS ENTIRE PHASE!" (Battleshock) so that sets the stage for tons of ridiculous hero abilities.

6) The Magic Phase sucks completely. You roll 2d6. Your opponent rolls 2d6. Whoever is highest wins! SO stupid I can't even. This one is particularly devastating for me. Oh yeah - and a whole 2 "standard" spells to choose from!

I really hope they supplement these rules, and come out with some sort of balancing mechanism for "competitive games". As it is, this will be just a fun change of pace for me while I still play WHFB 8th Edition.

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:46 pm
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Lord hajjij wrote:
5) The first Command Ability we see is basically "IGNORE THIS ENTIRE PHASE!" (Battleshock) so that sets the stage for tons of ridiculous hero abilities.


Basically, 'And they shall know no fear' 40k rule for SM's. Sig-marines indeed.

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:51 pm
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I understand the emotions, but keep in mind some aspects of the IOB set that we see again here:
- No customization
- No points
- No composition restrictions
- No unit sizes
- No balance between the two factions

That can all still change.

1) Lore/magic choices could still exist. Except that it's warscroll and realm bound now. So.. Your Sorceress could have a scroll for, say.. A shadow sorceress, a dark magic sorceress, etc. Except now they could also come with different rules and extra's. Who knows?

2) The focus lies on number of models "for now". Whether that remains so is unclear (see IOB). I think it was written to encourage new starting players to let them include whatever model they bought after the starting box instead of going "sorry Timmy, that was just the demo. Now you have to scrap half your models because this isn't a valid army".
I don't think it's intended to stay that way for the seasoned players.

3) It's sad that we lost "weapon skill", "strength" and "toughness" which were very characteristic attributes and fun in a progressive roleplay game or style.
However the hit and wound charts were a mess and I'm actually glad to be rid of it. I'll explain why.
First off, the travesty of hitting a daemon prince as easily as a skeleton also occurred in WFB. A human could hit your daemon as easily as a fellow human. This is because the game was normalized around failing half your attacks. The cost of a model and the value of strength etc took that norm into account. That's why they had such immense problems with special armies like elves where they couldn't give us the cost by performance (which would have us sink to Empire levels) and they never got Strength 3 to work... which was the norm.
- In 6th edition we had no compensation, and so we were the weakest army. A spearmen regiment? 71% chance of scoring 0 wounds against a Dwarf warrior unit. Because somehow that made sense.
- 7th ed, they tried to fix it with hatred (hit re-rolls). Spearmen regiment still had 59% to score 0 wounds vs Dwarf warriors. The unit was used for body count because it didn't do much else.
- 8th ed, they fixed it with permanent re-rolls on the hit and wound. Still a poor unit.
Why are Witch Elves used? Because they offer -three- (!) times the damage for only 22% more points. Even more so on the charge.

If you can't get spearmen with normal stats to work, then I honestly doubt you can call it a brilliant system. It didn't stop Warhammer from being a fun game. But until they can make spears work, which historically and fluff wise should be the case, there is probably a fault in the system. I think AoS can fix that. With a fixed hit (3+?) and wound rate (4+?) and perhaps a longer attack range in CC, they could make that unit work. Finally. I don't want them to become destroyers, but when was the last time an opponent was scared of runnign into spears?

4) Double rounds will occur regularly, but the odds are slimmer than 50% (rather 35%-40% sort of). While this could allow double turn shooting, that double turn also increases the risk of getting a double turn against you. You could be running 5+d6" and another 5+2d6" charge. 10+3d6" ... Without double move for the opponent, shooters can be lame indeed. They can stay at 18" for the shooting. Assuming a 5" move on a unit, they could be outside of charge range. But this is nothing special, or new. Dark Riders could do that as well?

5) The first Command Ability only works on a single unit, not the phase. There is no fleeing, only retreating, and the battle shock is quite a hefty penalty. Losing models, regardless of wounds, phew! Such an ability helps normalize it a bit though, admitted, it seems weird that it needs such a fix already.

6) Well I liked the 8th ed magic system. I'd hate to see it go as well. Here's to hoping!

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:24 pm
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Great, well thought out response Daeron. I definitely am giving the game a good shot and still am optimistic, I'm just pointing out some of the MAJOR flaws and disappointments as of right now.

While I don't agree with your assessment of the to hit and to wound tables, I can see your point of view. I'm not even going to say those tables were amazing. But I personally think a To Hit and To Wound stat on each model is utter crap.

Quote:
5) The first Command Ability only works on a single unit, not the phase. There is no fleeing, only retreating, and the battle shock is quite a hefty penalty. Losing models, regardless of wounds, phew! Such an ability helps normalize it a bit though, admitted, it seems weird that it needs such a fix already.


I was referencing the ability from the dragon rider guy. Make ALL Sigmarines within 24" of him immune to Battleshock. That seems insanely powerful and essentially removes a phase for that army. AND it's the FIRST command ability that we see! If you believe power creep is a real thing, then it gets me worried.

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:48 pm
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I really do hope for further rules, however the rumours seem to suggest otherwise.

On your first points on comparing to IOB, all the models supplied did have points available via army books. Whilst not ideal the balance and restrictions were available if you wanted to expand beyond the IoB box set.

I sincerely believe if GW had just come out and say something very simple in White Dwarf, such as these are the intro rules / scrolls to get you going and we fully intend to expand on these in due course, no one would have minded. There would still be criticism of the rules as they current stand, but people would wait and enjoy the new game, whereas now it seems the some of the more vocal forum communities are already looking at alternative game systems or just saying I am not even going to bother. It could well be too late for GW to hold on to the veterans if they don't realise something further in the very near future. I know they state they are a miniature company and not a games company, but you would hope they cannot be naive enough to think people are going to continue to buy models to play their games without at least a rule set that has some semblance of balance. There are many great models out there that do not come from GW.

Myself, I am certainly going to give AoS a few games and definitely wait until I see the direction they will be taking the Elven factions before jumping ship to another games system or deciding to stick with 8th. I will even give the novel a go to see if I can get enthused with the new fluff, but I am currently a little disheartened by a hobby I have enjoyed for almost 30 years and invested tens of thousands of pounds into.

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It will be interesting to see the size of the new "Elves". If they outscale my existing force there is no way I will be buying them, regardless of quality of sculpt.

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:38 pm
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The fluff piece that I read explains that the Sigmarines are bigger than a normal Human because of awesomeness. That implies that this larger model isn't a scale increase but specific for the Sigmarines. They are supposed to look larger than an Elf. in other words... I wouldn't draw conclusions for the Elves yet.

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I like the Sigmarines as models, and reckon they would make a great additions to my long ago attic-ed Emperor's Children army, should I ever decide to reactivate it. But that picture reminds me of Harry's comments (who had AoS pretty much nailed months ago) on them deliberately changing the scale across the board, so that armies would no longer fit aesthetically together (like LotR/FB).

But yes, we'll see.

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The Corsairs I can dig, but the Executioners look a little static I think.
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Via:
https://twitter.com/TLMayesing/status/6 ... 9340150784

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:08 pm
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I think Dark Elves in particular are going to look pretty awesome on rounds, should you go for that. Especially Corsairs and Witch Elves.

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:25 pm
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flatworldsedge wrote:
Hey all - quick post as a sign of life... Work is brutal, photo project devouring spare time, but mostly this wretched 9th stuff keeping me in limbo! I won't go off on a rant until it's properly out, but not my cup of tea. My circle just playing 8th with what we have. GW just pulling in a different direction from what I enjoyed.

Hope you're all fantastically well!


Cheers my good man.

Was expecting you to drop like a Stormcast Eternal...

[+] SPOILER
Sorry :P


...on to the End of the End Times Comp and crush the rest of our entries !lol! Shame you missed it, but good to see you alive and posting :)

@Everyone

My thoughts on AoS:

- GW have been clever taking the IBM/Microsoft route and flooding the market with 'software' that positions both their hardware and software. I thought this was a strategy they should have pursued in the past.
- Looking at my local (large and successful) games club, the dynamic is almost exclusively quick paced/low model count games. AoS caters to this modern demographic.
- AoS is a brand new game which I'll reserve final judgement on till I play.

Cons
- Warhammer FB is now dead
- AoS on the surface looks very much like my worst tabletop gaming nightmare come to life: aesthetics of WoW, 40k feeder, sub-40k "gaming" experience.

Pros
- Warhammer FB is now dead, and can be reborn as a fan-game in the same way as BloodBowl 8)
- I can now play the version of Warhammer FB I always wanted to play: my own modified version 8)
- For quick skirmish games with my models, I have the option of AoS 8)
- I can devote more hobby time to being originative and creative, and less reliant on prescribed gameworlds 8)
- Total Warhammer :twisted: is on the way -- my two favourite games combined! And my Warhammer/Warhammer World/Dark Elf passion can continue on electronically :D

The future is bright.

The future is Oldhammer/Total Warhammer :D

P.S. If you are feeling down about the changes:

[+] SPOILER


There is still KPop doing JPop :mrgreen:

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:50 pm
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So the forces are named now.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/5010/643158.page

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:26 pm
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Well didnt GW buy Kings of war a year or 2 ago, and said they are going to continue the game?
And KoW has announced they are going to introduce 10 new races, and they happen to be the same 10 that are now removed form WFB.

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Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:31 pm
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That's news to me and I can't find anything on google...

So I'd say that's a no?

They would have also had to buy Mantic I would imagine, though to what end I can't imagine.

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