Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:40 am



This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 120 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Army Composition Topics: Redundancy 
Author Message
Beastmaster

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:28 pm
Posts: 380
Location: Somewhere in Euroland
Reply with quote
Post 
Keledron wrote:
LvP,

Sorry I missunderstood your use of the word "Lord" I had wrongly assumed you were refering to a Highborn commonly referred to as a Lord amongst British players rather than a Noble, the hero choice.


That's my fault: I meant Noble but wrote Lord (lapsus?)... :oops:

Letting be Italian translators...
I really think they made the game translated by mail order's trolls, or worst, by some obscure graduated in languages who never heard of Warhammer world. :evil:

To put it clear I stopped playing Orks because I found the translated codex too irritanting to stand; I was finding O&G slang too much fun to accept the kind of stupid babbling they tryed to introduce in the translated codex :x

Still I need the italian version of the codices to play with others here. :?

LvP


Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:23 pm
Report this post
Profile
Rending Star
Rending Star
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:10 am
Posts: 5030
Location: Germany
Reply with quote
Post 
Lud von Pipper wrote:
Still I need the italian version of the codices to play with others here. :?


Ahh... I can feel your pain! I always buy the originals (english version), altho the german ones aren't that bad, really, but they still lose out to the originals.

Bye
Thanee


Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:34 pm
Report this post
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:08 pm
Posts: 1290
Reply with quote
Post 
Phew!!... I just finally read through all of this topic. I think know that I have only just begun to understand strategy. I fell like an Orc!

Duuuh.....tell me about the rabbits, tell me about the rabbits.


Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:28 am
Report this post
Profile
Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:33 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Spain
Reply with quote
Post 
Hi everybody, I'm new in this post and I only have been playing with DE for a year and a half. Anyway I think that redundacy even difficult beacuse of our expensive army can be achived.
In my 2000 points army, I normally try to brake the enemy battle line in one flank with a combined charge of 5 Cold One Knights (with Command and Battle Banner) led by a Hero and a Highborne in Manticore. This means I spend about 700 points of my army. I have no many points to invest in another hammer unit, so looking for redundancy I use 2 chariots that can hit very hard instead the COK if they are not available and can be also useful to support other units. Of course I also have two dark riders units that can be very useful in many situations (combined flank charges and sacrifices to protect my expensive units to name just a few). And at last I also use a Real Hydra, that can bring me time against powerful cavalries and also menace with its strenght and terror other units. If you see all those units can be used in different ways and their mobility allow me to have them in the place I neeed.
From my opinion, our best thing is the mobility not the strength and with this type of army (I don't use infanteries, only repeated bolt crossbows) we normally can chose where we prefer to combat.
That's all. I hope you can understand my message, because english is not my born language and I do not know how to say most of warhammer technical words.
Our army is the best one in the world!!


Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:42 pm
Report this post
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 10:34 pm
Posts: 1382
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Reply with quote
Post 
Quote:
Hi everybody, I'm new in this post and I only have been playing with DE for a year and a half. Anyway I think that redundacy even difficult beacuse of our expensive army can be achived.
In my 2000 points army, I normally try to brake the enemy battle line in one flank with a combined charge of 5 Cold One Knights (with Command and Battle Banner) led by a Hero and a Highborne in Manticore. This means I spend about 700 points of my army. I have no many points to invest in another hammer unit, so looking for redundancy I use 2 chariots that can hit very hard instead the COK if they are not available and can be also useful to support other units. Of course I also have two dark riders units that can be very useful in many situations (combined flank charges and sacrifices to protect my expensive units to name just a few). And at last I also use a Real Hydra, that can bring me time against powerful cavalries and also menace with its strenght and terror other units. If you see all those units can be used in different ways and their mobility allow me to have them in the place I neeed.
From my opinion, our best thing is the mobility not the strength and with this type of army (I don't use infanteries, only repeated bolt crossbows) we normally can chose where we prefer to combat.
That's all. I hope you can understand my message, because english is not my born language and I do not know how to say most of warhammer technical words.
Our army is the best one in the world!!


Welcome Dwarfshaver. Our army certainly is the best army in the world. Viva le druchii!

_________________
Be not afraid of the dark, but of what the dark hides.


Sat Dec 06, 2003 2:14 pm
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
Quote:
Hi everybody, I'm new in this post and I only have been playing with DE for a year and a half. Anyway I think that redundacy even difficult beacuse of our expensive army can be achived.
In my 2000 points army, I normally try to brake the enemy battle line in one flank with a combined charge of 5 Cold One Knights (with Command and Battle Banner) led by a Hero and a Highborne in Manticore. This means I spend about 700 points of my army. I have no many points to invest in another hammer unit, so looking for redundancy I use 2 chariots that can hit very hard instead the COK if they are not available and can be also useful to support other units. Of course I also have two dark riders units that can be very useful in many situations (combined flank charges and sacrifices to protect my expensive units to name just a few). And at last I also use a Real Hydra, that can bring me time against powerful cavalries and also menace with its strenght and terror other units. If you see all those units can be used in different ways and their mobility allow me to have them in the place I neeed.
From my opinion, our best thing is the mobility not the strength and with this type of army (I don't use infanteries, only repeated bolt crossbows) we normally can chose where we prefer to combat.
That's all. I hope you can understand my message, because english is not my born language and I do not know how to say most of warhammer technical words.
Our army is the best one in the world!!


The issue with redundancy is not to put all your eggs in one basket. Having your hitting power distributed between the Lord on Manticore, Cold One Knights and Chariots is a good thing - you have the ability to lose one of them (or have one go stupid) and not lose the capability to inflict damage on your enemy. This is redundant army design. Redundant planning is also making sure that you are flexible enough to adapt when one element is eliminated or marginalized.

J


Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:56 pm
Report this post
Profile
Trainee Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:12 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Slovenia
Reply with quote
Post 
WOW, this was a long thread, but I haven't read anything like this for a long time :P, this is something everyone should of read (even if not playing Druchii).

This post made me understand some things that I didn't know before and confirmed my other predictions.
I think the main power of Druchii is their flexibility, which can be well combined with shadow and dark magic to a greater effect.

I think that DE are an army that is hard to play with if you're a beginner.
It's not an army from hell where you just trample everything in your way.
Some play it that way(like the 10 COk unit with lord and BSB) and that gives them success.But surely in a while they will get beaten by someone who has that figured out.
If I see something like 10 COK's combo I just want to laugh...
Once I played a guy that had like 3 big baskets of units, and the game was DONE in 15 mins.It was a 2000 point game.
If you face my Dwarf army with 2 S5 stone throwers with runes of accuracy, that baskets will die pretty soon or flee from panic tests.MSU is much better or at least dividing a big unit in 2 or three parts which have different tasks, but can still be combined to make things hurt, I could call it redundancy.
Example:
10 COK(banner of murder) with BSB(hydra banner) and Highborn

Divide rather into:
Highborn on a manticore
6 COK with full command
Noble on a chariot or 2 chariots

Splitting big units is really great, but IMHO it's done best by Druchii.
And I think that's the main power of them that other armies can't afford.
Why?Because DE have outstanding movement, the best choice of flying creatures, fast cavalry, and still have access to spells like unseen lurker, steed of shadows, and dominion.Then you can really say you
dominate the movement phase and because of this logically dominate the close combat, because you choose your fights and still you can have some RBT's and Rxbwmen shoot from the back.
That's the way I understand the Druchii, and I think that's the way they should be played to a greater effect :P (in case I'm not wrong :o :D )

Enough from me, you'll get tired reading this ;),

Cheers to all

_________________
''You are pathetic, I must simply laugh.''


Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:56 pm
Report this post
Profile
Lord of Mod-Assassins
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 3:47 pm
Posts: 1947
Location: In the depths of Anger... and loving it!
Reply with quote
Post 
Wow... I just read all that in... <looks at clock> 2 hours! That's the longest I have taken to read a thread. Long and useful...

My few things to talk about on this topic is that I agree completely with the idea. I follow a similar thread in my army at times.

I usually use 6 COK without a character, and a unit of 18 Corsairs in support. I move them both together, usually with the Knights a little further back than the Corsairs [to absorb damage] and then do a simultaneous charge on the same unit... And if the Dark Riders are around, they join the fun on the flank. This has proven to be a good setup, and I am extremely happy with the way it works. On the other flank, a unit Of 18 Black Guard with the Dread Banner , and a Noble with Crimson Death is flanked by 2 Chariots. I make the BG a very juicy target, and have the chariots hanging a little further back. So if I get charged [which I usually do], I do not autobreak, and have a leadership of 9 [usually with a BSB around somewhere]. Assuming the dice gods dont hate me, the Chariots follow up with a counter charge, and usually wipe the enemy in the next round, usually with an overrun or pursue occuring from it, since all the fear would more than likely break the unit [and the BG are definitely going first in the second round with an I6].

The point of redundancy being, that if one of the flanks fall, the fast units on the other side dash over. I know it is not perfect, but has worked a bit in the past. I do not have a perfect record with this [Hell, since I use a different list almost everytime I play. Yay proxy!]

However, I am developing an MSU style list, and getting them painted as soon as I can... can't wait to go to RTTs and the like...

Z

_________________
======================
Quote:
<langmann> hah, I'll take florida over 10 feet of snow/day. My balls sweat and I'm cold and my back is sore from shoveling.


Join the DNet chatroom today!


Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:28 am
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
Alone -

Glad you liked it ... have you tried the Banner of Murder on your Corsairs? It gives them a lot more reach on the charge and makes it even easier to get both the Cold One Knights and Corsairs in on the same target ...

J


Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:32 pm
Report this post
Profile
Lord of Mod-Assassins
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 3:47 pm
Posts: 1947
Location: In the depths of Anger... and loving it!
Reply with quote
Post 
I forgot to mention that, I usually have the BOM with the Corsairs. Infact, Bruce, the other DE player at our club, has taken that idea from me... heh. He used it on his COK before, but after I had some Execs charge his COK, wiping them out, he has started putting them on his Corsairs...

Z

_________________
======================
Quote:
<langmann> hah, I'll take florida over 10 feet of snow/day. My balls sweat and I'm cold and my back is sore from shoveling.


Join the DNet chatroom today!


Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:43 pm
Report this post
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:29 pm
Posts: 213
Location: Atlanta, GA
Reply with quote
Post 
AloneAndBurned wrote:
I forgot to mention that, I usually have the BOM with the Corsairs. Infact, Bruce, the other DE player at our club, has taken that idea from me... heh. He used it on his COK before, but after I had some Execs charge his COK, wiping them out, he has started putting them on his Corsairs...

Z


But now it's back out Z! I traded the banner for another unit of DR's, also downgraded other DR's to non-shooting Sorceress delivery system. I always find if I put Repeater Crossbows on my Riders, I put them in situations where they can shoot rather than in strategic board control positions. Plus it's easier to stomach losing 97 points than 127.

Bruce

P.S. Looking forward to seeing the Cult Jeff!


Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:25 am
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
Much the same as at the Philly GT ... with the addition of Mounted Daemonettes ... and the loss of Chariots, Knights and Drake.

Did you see the Giant on the Warmonger site?

J


Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:26 pm
Report this post
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:29 pm
Posts: 213
Location: Atlanta, GA
Reply with quote
Post 
jeffleong13 wrote:
Much the same as at the Philly GT ... with the addition of Mounted Daemonettes ... and the loss of Chariots, Knights and Drake.

Did you see the Giant on the Warmonger site?

J


Yep, saw him in a WD too. Beautiful shading and modeling. Don't stray too far to the chaos side, I know you're just preparing for that Slaneesh alternate DE list aren't ya?

Bruce


Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:19 pm
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
Actually, I am doing the Cults of Chaos thing for Baltimore - after that, it's back to either DE or a Daemon army ... we'll see. I just don't like the way Chaos plays ...

J


Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:42 pm
Report this post
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:29 pm
Posts: 213
Location: Atlanta, GA
Reply with quote
Post 
jeffleong13 wrote:
Actually, I am doing the Cults of Chaos thing for Baltimore - after that, it's back to either DE or a Daemon army ... we'll see. I just don't like the way Chaos plays ...

J


Totally agree with ya! I painted 2/3's of a Khorne Beastman army before I even playtested with it, with a mind to take it to Baltimore. Loved doing the conversions and painting the little goatmen, but then I had a few games with them.

BORING! I just pushed mini's towards my opponent! Once I figured how to do the waves of herds and screened the frenzied troops, it was very hard for my opponents to stop. Definitely prefer the finesse style of Dark Elves! My empire is pretty fun too, since I have ditched the Knights in favor of more blocks of foot.

Bruce


Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:21 pm
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
Bruce -

I assume that you are bringing the DE to Baltimore then? As you have probably seen from my Slaanesh army, it will be a simple matter of weapon/arm swaps and base changes to make them into a very in-theme Dark Elf Cult of Slaanesh force ...

J


Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:35 pm
Report this post
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:29 pm
Posts: 213
Location: Atlanta, GA
Reply with quote
Post 
J-
Yep, bringing my Druchii sailors to the harbor! Pretty much the same army as I ran at Charlotte GT last year. Exception being cold one knights instead of witch elves. Here's the list if you're curious:
Noble - General, Blood Armor, SDC, Seal Ghrond, GW
Noble - BSB, HA, SDC, Sword of Might
Sorceress - Lvl 2, Dark Steed, Darkstar Cloak, Dispel Scroll
2 Units 19 Corsairs
6 Cold One Knights - War Banner
2 units 5 dark riders - mus
1 unit 7 dark riders - Std, Mus
2 units 10 warriors - rxb's, shields
8 shades
2 RBT's

Not too shooty, definitely not magicy, but a lot of units to move. This is as close to MSU as I'll get. To stay with the original topic, I do have some redundancy built into the list. Shades and 1 unit of dark riders to march block one flank, while other flank advances. COK's are primarily there for threat and flanking. Another unit of dark riders rides with them. Most people pick on the COK's and leave my DR alone. I get some raised eyebrows on the unit of 7 DR's with the standard escorting the Sorceress. They have survived every battle since I've put them in. They usually get whittled down to the Sorceress and 2 dudes, but then they are in someone's flank.

I'm building a General's Compendium type boat to carry them around on. Hopefully it'll turn out nice, still have to figure out what to make the sails out of. Probably go with paper, but silk would be really cool!

When is the next installment on your Cults of Chaos page on Warmonger going to be?

Bruce


Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:00 pm
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
I am trying to do one installment a month. I already did January's ... so probably the middle of Feb for the next one. A last one probably in early March.

I still have to paint 5 Mounted Daemonettes (5 are done) and have to do the base. I also need to finish up the BSB's standard ... right now it's blank!

For those who are curious ... here's the list:

162 - Exalted Champ of Slaanesh w/ Shield, Rending Swd
170 - Sorcerer (Lvl 2) w/ Power Familiar
145 - Sorcerer (Lvl 2) w/ Dispel
165 - Asp Champ of Slaanesh w/ BSB, Book of Secrets

165 - 20 Marauders w/ LA, Shld, CC
165 - 20 Marauders w/ LA, Shld, CC
75 - 10 Marauders w/ GW, M
75 - 10 Marauders w/ GW, M
91 - 5 Marauder Cav w/ Th Axe, M
125 - 5 Marauder Cav w/ Flail, Th Axe, CC
30 - 5 Dogs
30 - 5 Dogs

150 - 5 Mounted Daemonettes
150 - 5 Mounted Daemonettes
90 - 6 Furies

205 - Giant

In terms of redundancy ... this list is rather obvious in that regard, as it pretty much takes two of everything that I like. The more subtle aspect is that the Fast Cavalry takes the place that Chariots usually occupy in my lists - Combat Resolution creators!!

J


Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:09 pm
Report this post
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:21 am
Posts: 199
Reply with quote
jeffleong13 wrote:
All -

A A perfect example is the huge unit I used to love that consisted of 9 Cold One Knights with Full Command, Banner of Murder and was joined by the Highborn nicely tooled up on a Cold One. Together, this was about 600 points ... roughly 1/3 of my 2000 pt army. When they worked, it was great! When they went stupid ... not so good. As my list evolved, the Cold One Knights were replaced by the much cheaper Cold One Chariots - they actually ended up with more stupidity problems, but hit as hard if not harder than the Knights ... and were only about 1/3 the cost! This spread out the hitting power a bit more and also gave me more units ...

So how do you ensure redundancy in your own lists?

Looking forward to hearing your ideas -
Jeff


In your case the HB eats the majority of the points. I'd leave him out of the unit, esp since knights have Ld9 anyway. I'd make that a unit of 8 to press more pts (10 would be ok too). The banner of murder is a variable bonus and is too risky to rely on in such a prime unit.
Instead, I'd buy a chariot for the pts you spared now BUT like you said yourself, it's even more unreliable so get that noble in it.
-> more reliable, spread out, cooperating units.

About the main topîc I'd like to add that there's a risk of spreading your pts and powers too much, ending up with units that are jack of all trades but masters of none. Units should be tooled up for the task they'll be doing. It's better to have one unit that will do it's job than to have two that you can't count on. Unless you play orcs...

Voila, my 2nd post on this forum.


Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:41 am
Report this post
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:06 pm
Posts: 221
Location: Karond Kar... hiding from scary things.
Reply with quote
Post 
On the topic of redundancy, I would like to bring up an interesting but often overlooked or under rated unit. Black Guard. The strength in black guard is that they can do the job of the "can opener" and the job of a standard rank and file unit. Though expensive, taking a unit of BG is cheaper than taking both an extra unit of Execs and an extra spearmen unit and can fill in for either one when the situation come around.

_________________
My answer to the wood elves?
Khaine's ASPECT OF THE LUMERJACK!!

"Few can understand how much fun one can have with a taser and a SWAT sheild."


Sun May 02, 2004 9:05 am
Report this post
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.   [ 120 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software