Vc vs DE - Any ideas how to fight this?

Outers · Post by **Outers** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:56 pm

2500 Pts - Vampire Counts Roster

Vampire Lord (1#, 450 Pts)
1 Vampire Lord (immune to dblow, fix 4+, reg, lv 4 mage with 6pd)
General; Level 3 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Undead
1 The Cadaverous Cuirass
1 Crown of the Damned
1 The Hand of Dust
1 Dark Acolyte
1 Master of the Black Arts
1 Summon Ghouls

Lord of the Barrows (1#, 255 Pts)
1 Wight King (Battle Standard Bearer)
Barding; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Battle Standard Bearer; Undead
1 Skeletal Steed
1 The Drakenhof Banner

Vampire (1#, 175 Pts)
1 Vampire
Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Helm of Commandment
1 Dark Acolyte
1 Summon Ghouls

Vampire (1#, 180 Pts)
1 Vampire
Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Book of Arkhan
1 Dark Acolyte
1 Summon Ghouls

Crypt Ghouls (20#, 168 Pts)
19 Crypt Ghouls
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead
1 Crypt Ghast

Crypt Ghouls (20#, 168 Pts)
19 Crypt Ghouls
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead
1 Crypt Ghast

Zombie Horde (21#, 88 Pts)
21 Zombie Horde
Musician ; Hand Weapon; Undead

Zombie Horde (20#, 84 Pts)
20 Zombie Horde
Musician ; Hand Weapon; Undead

Grave Guard (25#, 375 Pts)
24 Grave Guard (3+as, reg, +1 to hit in cc)
FC; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Undead
1 The Banner of the Barrows

Grave Guard (25#, 355 Pts)
24 Grave Guard
FC; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Undead
1 War Banner

Dire Wolves (5#, 40 Pts)
5 Dire Wolves
Fast Cavalry; Undead

Dire Wolves (5#, 40 Pts)
5 Dire Wolves
Fast Cavalry; Undead

Dire Wolves (5#, 40 Pts)
5 Dire Wolves
Fast Cavalry; Undead

Fell Bats (4#, 80 Pts)
4 Fell Bats
Flyer; Undead

Total Roster Cost: 2498

Roster Statistics
Casting Dice: 12
Dispel Dice: 6
General's Ld: 10
# Models: 154
Total Characters: 1060.0
Total Core: 508.0
Total Magic Items: 545.0
Total Rare: 0.0
Total Special: 810.0
% Characters: 42.4
% Core: 20.3
% Magic Items: 21.8
% Rare: 0.0
% Special: 32.4

same color = chars are in that unit

in the first 2 rounds u raise your ghouls and zombies
12 times on 3+ for D6 ghouls and/or 4+ for D6+4 zombies

a weak point ll be the 2 lv 2 vampires
but u ve enough wovles and zombies 2 bait/engange threats

------------------------------------------------

tough tough... any suggestions how to beat this with our de?

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:17 pm

I've played a very similar list twice now and both times it ended with a major victory for the Vampires. I haven't figured out how to beat them yet.

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:23 pm

First of all, I'd like you to read this forum's FAQ/Rules. Posting the exact effects of magic items is against it's rules, you can assume that we all have some knowledge about what items do, and what special abilities units have.

Now OT: The best way to deal with VC is to allow the enemy to cast his raising spells, and concentrate on the other spells. Sure, the raising is nasty, especially when in combat, but the best way to deal with them is to take away the source. After having fought this combo of GG + BSB + Lord some times, I discovered that the best way to kill this unit is to first kill the BSB with an assasin/other guy who is capable of killing the BSB (mind that with some mounted hero/unit you will probably get the chance to escape when fleeing from the unit).
After that you can charge the heavy cav in; a Dreadlord on Dragon is preferred. He will probably challenge with his champion to avoid his Lord from dying, but this isn't too bad, as there will be some time he will not be able to summon his champion back, and you will be able to attack his Lord. Don't challenge when his champion is dead, as the Lord (especially when he is a wizardlord) will refuse and go to a back rank.
You should be able to hold of vs the unit with 9 S6 attacks per turn. A battle standard bearer in the neighbourhood of the Dragon may come in handy.

Furthermore, I wouldn't suggest RBT's, as they CAN be destroyed by zombies (one thing those dead can do

) Take RXB-men instead to whittle down the light stuff. This gives him less targets for his bats as well.

And you should try to use written language instead of speaking language.

Outers · Post by **Outers** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:42 pm

rules removed
sums left

oops, i forgot the varghulf.

option: remove a unit of zombies and the bats for a far greater one.

Macknight · Post by **Macknight** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:04 pm

bring 2 war hydras, their flame attack remove regen and is devestating vs zombies, witch elves, frenzy corsairs, 2-3 rxb and 2-3 DR, ring of hotek, sorceress with dagger and immune to psych item(works both for sac for dagger and in cc if the unit losses to fear causer), BG with ASF banner, some combination to 2500 should work very nicely against VC.

1 last thing, the lifetaker works very well against their etereals too. happy gaming!

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:49 pm

I would bring a double hydra, Dragon list. IT should absolutely maul a list relying on the Regen bunker. Also, the rest of the army is pretty non-scary. Ghouls can fight decently but in the end are just another core troop and since they are so cheap, I would either focus on breaking the bunker (IE killing it) OR killing everything around it and making sure he doesn't get any dance's off.

-Rex

Druchii77 · Post by **Druchii77** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:28 pm

I would highly recommend 2 hydras for an army of this type. They will totally negate the drakenhoff banner. If the BSB is in the first grave guard unit, have the hydras move about the unit and flame it.

A great advantage we have over a list like this is our manuverability. While the army above has many large blocks, our fast cav and flyers could really do a great job of surrounding and outmaneuvering this army. A key to fighting undead is to only engage if you know you can win or stay for several turns of combat. A maneuverable army has this opportunity.

Another important thing to think about is how to dispel his spells. Honestly raising into units should be your lowest priority. Stopping those movement spells and the raising of new units is of higher importance. Also, I saw firsthand how devastating curse of years is now. So, prioritize your dispel attempts. The ring of hotek won't be especially helpful here if the VC player just spams single dice castings, but it can really help you out if he rolls higher spells with multiple dice.

Post by **Layne** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:51 am

I think three units of Witches marching close together, with one Hag carrying the ring, would be just about that vamp's worst nightmare. Indeed any vamp's worst nightmare. Get a Death Hag BSB/Hydra Banner in there too, if you really feel like ripping them up. That would be overkill, probably, but dang it would be fun.

And use some capitals, and some full stops too. When your post looks all nice and neat you get more respect and better replies, I promise you.

Dannyisevil · Post by **Dannyisevil** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:34 am

Slow the Grave guard unit because this unit is very hard too beat and the vampire lord gives 12 inch march too other undead.
Meanwhile you kill al other unit by manny attacks/shootting.
The ring of hotek keep the enemy wizzards of unising powerfull spells.
Look out for the move spell and any bound items.
You wanna control movement fase.

Grave guard unit + vampire lord = almost 1000 points :shock:

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:42 pm

Ok, I cracked the nut open so to speak. I sent straight for the General who was hiding in a small unit of Ghouls behind a big unit of 30 Ghouls. I slammed 7 Cold One Knights with the Hydra banner powered by the Cauldron of Blood into the big block of Ghouls. The remaining Ghouls vaped on his turn. I then charged his General and he died the next turn as I tore through the smaller unit of Ghouls.

This was made possible by two units of Dark Riders and two units of Harpies redirecting. I had tabled his army by turn 4.

Zavratatar · Post by **Zavratatar** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:25 pm

"I slammed 7 Cold One Knights with the Hydra banner powered by the Cauldron of Blood into the big block of Ghouls. The remaining Ghouls vaped on his turn."

Hold on here... 30 Ghouls survived 3-attacks-each CoK?

*does math*

16 wounds from riders,
5 from coldones?

He'd have lost combat by ~ 18? VS the ~10 remaining ghouls?

You must roll really bad ^_^

GJ on catching the general in a sensitive place, I'm going up against VC and I'll keep that in mind.

Saedron · Post by **Saedron** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:34 pm

Wow impressive victory phierlihy! I used to play a friend of mine's VC's often, occasionally in a list like this, and I beat it once. The trick is to outmanouver the dire wolves with DR's, do a march block in the rear (vamps aren't very manouverable), and try and slow down the bunker of death.

Bunkers suck to fight, but I might recommend a hydra and an assassin to challenge and kill his general. Once that's accomplished, it should be as easy fight.

Warpaintoz · Post by **Warpaintoz** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:44 am

The trick vs VC's I've always found is to shoot him up as much as possible, even concentrating fire untile a unit is destroyed can be helpful! Ignore the Grave Guard for shooting, target the others, and then let him waste his dice summoning his units up to where they started. essentially you're trying to maintain the status quo util you're in a good position to move to combat.
Then use a large heavy hitting flyer to go the charceters: don't be afraid to lose combats with these units as they will invariable escape pursuit.

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:03 pm

It took longer to kill them because he gave the unit weapon skill 6 and they hit me first because of their stupid Corpse Carts. The Ghouls did nothing but his Wight Lord BSB in the first unit of Ghouls I hit killed a Knight (or was it two?). My Combat Resolution wasn't at it's full potential. He was left with his BSB with one wound and a Ghould Champion after the first charge. He summoned back into the unit the following turn but it wasn't enough so I moved into his General's unit the following turn.

Not even Chaos Chosen can generate as much combat resolution as we can with this combo. Against all these ItP armies out there again, it's really handy.

Kierath heartshard · Post by **Kierath heartshard** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:33 pm

A few words on challenging VC characters-here they are:"Van Horstman's Speculum". My (reasonably) regular VC opponent always has it. And it will kill you.

Dangerous Beans · Post by **Dangerous Beans** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:54 am

isnt the VHS an Empire only magic item? I'm a little confused - what do you mean exactly Kierath?

- Beanz

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:57 am

Beanz you are most definitely correct, which leaves me quite confused about Kierath.

-Rex

General ravensong · Post by **General ravensong** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:46 am

As a mainly VC, here are my suggestions.
for the ugly bodyguard unit, my suggestion is to keep it march blocked with dark riders and have a master with them equipped with the ring of hotek to encourage the caster to not cast any high cost spells.
If you have the model for it, bring a Dreadlord on a dragon, equipped with the dragon egg, and plop yourself behind it and just breath down his neck, because the first turn you get to do that, you get two breaths.
Failing that bring a Supreme Sorceress and one or two (maybe three to be ebil) normal sorceress with lore of fire and blast away at that main unit. (keeping the ring of hotek riders march blocking him along the way). and make sure that you keep him from restoring that unit, let him regenerate a couple of the others, but shut that one down.

Another note with the sorceresses, I'd suggest that the lvl 2 one be a scroll caddy and that one have them have the staff of sorcery, this will be an excellent combo with the ring because while he's being discouraged from casting the upper level nasty things like summon undead hoard and winds of undeath (and probably focusing on using only one or two dice to invoc his own unit) you'll have an additional +1 to all those dispells.

This does two things: it pressures him to protect his general, and negates an over 200 point investment in that bsb.
While you're flaming away at his lord and bodyguard, I'd suggest you use reapers to take out the Wolves, as those are going to be your fast cav's main threat.
when the bodyguard gets small enough that you think you can combat resolve it to death, charge it from multiple flanks and the rest of his army will crumble while you shoot at it.

Ravensongs recipe for ultimate ebil against that list.
Lord: High Sorc on Dragon, lvl 4, black dragon egg and the staff that lets you cast power of darkness as a bound spell. Lore of fire
Heros: 2 lvl 2 sorceress with lore of fire. one with sacrificial dagger and scroll, one with 2 scrolls. One master on Dark Steed with ring of hotek.
Core: a unit of spearmen for the sac dagger sorc.
Dark riders to go with the master
crossbowmen to chew up zombies
more crossbowmen for zombie chewing
Rare: 2 reapers for wolf chewing
2 more reapers or a hydra for more flaming goodness

PD: 11
DD: 6 (+2 scrolls and the staff of sorcery)
Another strategy you could use with list is to go and hunt the squishier mages to sap his casting and dispel dice.

Outers · Post by **Outers** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:45 pm

ROH affects you too. :evil:

You can't burn that unit with spells as long as
your hero with ROH is close to them.

ROH is a double edged sword. :cry:

To throw a killer unit into them might be the best option.

- tank general with reverse ward
- ASF BG
- KB assassine to kill the BSB

I'm not sure if it is really a good idea to try to shoot/cast VC down.