Optimum size for Sacrificial Dagger unit?

Entreri bloodletter · Post by **Entreri bloodletter** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:56 pm

So we all know about the dagger + lots of cheap spearmen combo. But mostly I have seen people use only units of 10 for this purpose while after thinking about it have come up with a different strategy.

How about using a very large unit - say 25+ spearmen with shields, to create a unit that can not only sustain casualties from the dagger but from your opponent as well and still be useful in combat. So here are the advantages and disadvantages of both cases.

The Good
10 minimum sized spearmen

1. Very cheap running at 60 points
2. Easy to manuever and keep out of combat
There are probably more but I can't think of any right now - feel free to add

The Bad
10 minimum sized spearmen

1. Can't fight at all - not meant for it
2. Will not get much dagger usage due to lack of models
3. Can get shot up easily by enemy shooting
4. Can panic easily

The Good
25+ Spearmen unit

1. Can still fight with full ranks after dagger usage
2. Lots of dagger usage possible with many models
3. Will not panic easily from either dagger or enemy shooting

The Bad

1. More expensive- running around 200 points
2. Large footprint - harder to manuever
3. The sorceress could get in combat

So there are clearly advantages and disadvantages to both methods, which one have you had success with so far?

Macknight · Post by **Macknight** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:01 pm

the best solution is to have the pearl of bleakness along w it, it also help the units effectiveness against the likes of undead.

Grez90 · Post by **Grez90** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:05 pm

i run a unit of 25 with no shields, but with full command, this costs 165 points.
once i have used up a few sacrifices, or am near to getting into combat, i move the sorceress into a stronger, unit or onto her own.
i'm tempted to start running 25 warriors, but put the mage on a dark steed, this way, when she needs to leave, she can move 18" away from dangerous areas

Crawd · Post by **Crawd** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:12 pm

If you're paying 25 warriors with the full command, you better buy the shield. In this way, your sorceress may be able to do some damage and you'll probably won't sacrifice 3+ warriors per turn since some spells will surely pass without too much trouble.

By paying the shield, you'll be able to use them as a support unit or a CR unit. So it worth buying the shield if you're going for 25 models.

Otherwise, go for 10 warriors with no shield and the Pearl of Bleakness.

Edit: Added "spell" to clarify "some will surely pass"

Grez90 · Post by **Grez90** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:19 pm

may pass what.
the only thing they will need to pass is enemy shooting and magic, but seeing as they are warriors nobody will target them

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:59 pm

I'm tempted to try a unit of around 30 with shields, full command, AP banner and an assassin (with just rune of khaine). The sorceress is protected, the unit can fight, and you have enough models that you can sacrifice without too much worry.

Small units seem like a waste, since the risk panic, and won't be much good aside from being used to sacrifice.

Asgoth · Post by **Asgoth** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:49 pm

I use 24 SpearWarriors w/ shields, with FC and 2lv Sorceress with Sacrificial Dagger on dark steed...
Steed is for getting away of trouble if things get too hot for sorc, as allready mentioned....

People dont usually target my warriors, because theres so many other juicy targets, you have to have multiple threats.

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:57 pm

I've been running a unit of between 25 - 30 Spearmen with an Assassin and Sorceress in the unit and it's been the star of the show. The Assassin has yet to not kill at least three of whatever is in front of him so the Sorceress never gets touched and I usually have the standard 5 for combat resolution plus whatever the assassin dishes out. And if the Spearmen themselves actually kill something too, so much the better. My first game I used 20 Spearmen and by turn 5 I was killing off my command characters. It was ugly.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:58 pm

I'd never take 10.

Either 25 if you have the points or 2 units of 15. Kill a few from one unit then jump to the other unit and take a few more...

Mostlyharmless · Post by **Mostlyharmless** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:24 pm

If you give her the pearl of infinite bleakness, panic won't be a problem, from her dagger or otherwise.

Kheirakh · Post by **Kheirakh** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:34 pm

If you want your supreme sorceress to use the sacrificial dagger for every spell, the take 30 warriors, otherwise 25 is the way to go. Shields are a must, and so is full command. When you get attacked by a powerful character who flies, then challenge the bastard with a lordling. He gets normally max 4 combat resolution, you get 5 - so you win, and your sorceress stays alive.

Jarlaxle · Post by **Jarlaxle** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:54 pm

The 25 spearmen with sorceress on darksteed with sacrificial dagger and pearl seems like an awesome combo. I'll try it out in my 2000pt battle with wood elves on tuesday and keep you guys updated. I figure the spearmen will have shields and probably full command also. Haven't quite decided yet, it really depends on the amount of points I have.

Murmandamus · Post by **Murmandamus** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:20 pm

Well if i take daggger 30 is a way to go with fcg shields and war banner, pearl is also neccesery. She cast spells like mad and the unit is quite nice also. Last game they got charged by swordmasters and thanks to claudron ward 5+ they put quite a fight. Fight started with 24 warriors and by end of game only 10 remained but swordmasters were wiped out by my spears.

Tigtoad · Post by **Tigtoad** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:17 pm

I don't believe in buying units just to throw them away.

I love the dagger and use it... but I use it in a unit that has another purpose. 10 crossbowmen with shields in a pinch, or 21-25 spearmen with command, shields, and a war banner. Yes, I may kill 2-10 of those guys as the game goes on, but the unit is also useful in its own right...

Or... move the wizard around and share the stabbing love.

Vaari · Post by **Vaari** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:16 am

I didn't think a mounted Sorceress would be able to join units to use the sac-dagger??

Thanatoz · Post by **Thanatoz** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:16 am

You can use the dagger once per spell if I'm not mistaken, meaning in an average game, a level 2 will be able to use a max of 18 warriors, or three per turn. That's a panic test on a small unit, but not on a big unit.

The thing about Pearl of Infinite Bleakness is, sometimes you don't want to take a charge, and run. The pearl stops that option from happening.

I quite agree with Phierlihy: an assassin with the sorceress in the 25 spear unit (that's also the reason I'm using Banner of Murder instead of warbanner). I use a ninja assassin, so the unit is also threatening at range. If the sorc is positioned in the corner, the assassin can pretty much protect her from being targeted, and the static combat resolution is a great boost to his kills, usually allowing them to win the combat. If that isn't enough, the counter charge stands ready.

I only use the dagger to help spells that fail get through (with the "use one less dice than you normally would tactic), and it works pretty well.

Post by **Layne** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:09 pm

Vaari ; she can. All that the BRB says about mounted characters joining units is, you can't if the mount flies. No other exceptions are given, so there aren't any. In theory you could put a Chaos Lord on Jugger in a unit of Warriors. But why, Harold, why?

THanatoz ; correct. But discussed many times elsewhere, and more recently and thoroughly too.

Thanks for trying, but I'll be locking this one.