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Corsair Handbows 
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Highborn
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So I was thinking about Corsair handbows and thought to myself "Self rhb,s kind of suck...or do they?" Then I thought again What if we had a unit that looked like this.

20 Corsairs - FC w/ banner of murder
and in it
High Sorc - Lifetaker and Guiding Eye, maybe POK for the last item

Deployed with 7 wide that 15 shots x2 assuming they charge you on their turn. One round gets a re-roll

Still regular xbows are probably better for something like this combined with banner of murder but just a thought.

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Anyone else find it kinda interesting that DE will not use gun powder because its unreliable but seem to have no problem using cold ones?


Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:49 pm
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... good luck... when in hth they're dead. Many S3 shots cannot do high damage, even rerolling. I tried myself 10 corsairs with assassin, rending stars and manbane... You'd not like to hear how they performed.

It should be better use 20 xbows with shield.

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:23 pm
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Their H2H attacks are strength 3 as well.

The difference here is the enemy has to walk through 2 waves of 15 shots to get to you. Well 1 at least anyway.

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Anyone else find it kinda interesting that DE will not use gun powder because its unreliable but seem to have no problem using cold ones?


Last edited by Scipio on Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:32 pm
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i think it's a problem to give a high sorc that lifetaker anyway...
it's some sort of magic repeater crossbow and she does not have that option = no magic handbow also...

or am i wrong?

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:32 pm
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High Sorc can have it. Thats not the the problem.

Thinking on how it will roll out more maybe a better way is to have a character in there. I was thinking of a BSB with Hag flag, great weapon and a brace of handbows. Lifetaker can't shoot at chargers even when they are within half charge range and I am not sure how necessary guiding eye is.

Banner of Murder is going to give the -1 AS to shooting and hh attacks. Good way to maximize the banner.

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Anyone else find it kinda interesting that DE will not use gun powder because its unreliable but seem to have no problem using cold ones?


Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:05 pm
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Scipio wrote:
High Sorc can have it. Thats not the the problem.

Thinking on how it will roll out more maybe a better way is to have a character in there. I was thinking of a BSB with Hag flag, great weapon and a brace of handbows. Lifetaker can't shoot at chargers even when they are within half charge range and I am not sure how necessary guiding eye is.

Banner of Murder is going to give the -1 AS to shooting and hh attacks. Good way to maximize the banner.


I think the only real workable combo I've seen with the handbows is the one in which the corsairs are housing a hidden assassin. That way, if your Armour Piercing rhb bolts don't do the job, you have some ASF hitting power backing you up (preferably tricked out with KB and extra attacks). That actually could be a very nasty surprise.

The sorceress trick has one advantage, in that it is a pretty solid deterrent for light suicide charges, so it makes a good unit for housing a sorceress. But as you say, I think overall a regular unit of RXB's would be better for that, as they comparatively priced (cheaper once you add in the cost of the banner of murder for the Corsairs), and can contribute constant missile fire without having to be in risky positions. The only real benefit of the corsairs is their slightly superior resistance to shooting, and the fact that they can always stand and shoot. Personally, I would rather use RXB's that can get a 4+ hand to hand save, and which have a 24" range.

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:16 pm
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Two slim babysitters are better than a single fat one.

==============================================
1 fat babysitter
Scipio wrote:
20 Corsairs Deployed with 7 wide - FC w/ banner of murder
and in it
High Sorc - Lifetaker and Guiding Eye

That is expansive for a unit which sole purpose is to babysit.

You tune up your unit for a single chance of firing 14 rhb shots + lifetaker when taking a charge (assuming a first rank of 5 corsairs (C), 1 champ (R) with 2 rhb and the sorc (S)).

CCSRCCC
CCCCCCC
CCCCCCC

For that, you pay the cost of the corsairs, the full command and his additional mhb, the guiding eye and the banner.
I do not count the lifetaker that has a use every turn.
That makes something like 278 pts (I don't have the book with me, but it should be close).

The cost of each bolt shot is close to 20pts! For a single use!
Are they going to bring back their value per money? I doubt so.

Now, of course, some of the cost is paid for the melee phase (which you wish to avoid):
- the champ may take the challenge (assuming the enemy offers any, which is not granted).
- the surviving 1st rank will benefit from the banner in melee.
- 14 corsairs are only used for static combat resolution.
- the musician may help (if it happens, you are in deep trouble).
But even with these uses, the cost is too high.

==============================================
A pair of slim babysitters

If you want rhb corsairs for babysitters (a valid option IMO), I suggest to get 2 units of 10, musician only, no champ, no banner nor standard bearer, no guiding eye.
You spare 73pts or so. Maybe you'll like to keep the champ and additional mhb in each unit, but I like better the cheapest unit.

Deploy both 10 wide, one behind the other, slightly off on one side.

CCCCCCCCCC

.CCCCCCCCCCS

As you deploy the characters last, you'll put your sorc either on the front or on the rear unit depending on the opponent's deployment.
The sorceress can later move from one unit to the other one depending on the chances of getting charged and depending on which unit has been less reduced in numbers.

Position the front unit so that the sorc in the rear unit has a LOS on the target you wish, but the enemy has a reduced LOS on the rear unit. The sorc still benefits from "Look out, Ma'am" but less enemy models can shoot at your babysitting unit.

You can move forward the front unit (leaving the sorc behind), tease the enemy with bolts, and, if charged, they can either flee or stand and shoot (20 bolts!) and not have your sorc in melee (beware still of overrun).

The front unit prevents the precious rear unit to be charged, except by flying units.
If enemy's fast cavalry tries to go around, both corsairs units can orientate towards the threat, move and bolt them down: fast cav is usually easily teared down by regular bolts.

If you need to maneuvre, you can add/reduce a rank with 5 corsairs, it costs you 1/4 of your movement. A 5x2 unit can wheel more easily than a 10x1. Next turn, if the enemy gets too close, perhaps on your flank, you'll still be able to rotate 1/4 turn, move a little bit, augment the first rank to 10*1 and shoot 20 bolts with no penalty!

Don't forget to hide in a building if ever you have the option. There you cannot get struck in melee, so the stand & shoot happens every enemy's turn, and in-between you can shoot at them again.

If ever both units are still alive at turn 6, they can both claim 1/4 table and get their price back.

If ever the enemy does not care about your sorceress, you can annoy him with the front unit and get its price back.


Overall, for cheaper, you get much more flexibility.

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:24 pm
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Calisson wrote:
Two slim babysitters are better than a single fat one.


Could be true but on a few points I would offer something else to think on.

1. If I give the High Sorc PoK then I would likely answer a challenge with the Sorceress to minimize over kill and enemy CR but that depends on who challenges but as i will point out I think my 2nd character option is better

2. Static CR of this unit is potentially 4. If you can maneuver right then light to med infantry is going to have to wade through 15 shots, then 12 when they charge you. Usuming you can get a rank off if not outright panick them before H2H ensues then you should outnumber. I don't want to not see combat...Ideally I want to shoot and be charged.

3. I think the Sorc is the wrong tool though. BSB with Hag Flag, Great Weapon and a brace of pistols is a better option because my CR is now 5 and I attack first in combat.

So new unit to try looks like this

Master BSB - Standard of Hag Graef, GW, HA, SDC, rhbx2 = 168
20 Corsairs - FC Banner of Murder and rhb's = 250 points

frontage of 7 gets 16 shots...x2 before combat and attacks 1st with static CR of 5 :twisted:

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Anyone else find it kinda interesting that DE will not use gun powder because its unreliable but seem to have no problem using cold ones?


Last edited by Scipio on Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:15 pm
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Scipio wrote:
Hag Standard, GW, HA, SDC, rhbx2 = 168


Err, how exactly are you giving your hag any of those thing? Hags don't have any equipment options. They can only take stuff from the Temple of Khaine and/or the Cauldron and a battle standard.

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:24 pm
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Archdukechocula wrote:
Scipio wrote:
Hag Standard, GW, HA, SDC, rhbx2 = 168


Err, how exactly are you giving your hag any of those thing? Hags don't have any equipment options. They can only take stuff from the Temple of Khaine and/or the Cauldron and a battle standard.


Sorry let me clarify
Master BSB - Standard of Hag Graef

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Anyone else find it kinda interesting that DE will not use gun powder because its unreliable but seem to have no problem using cold ones?


Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:35 pm
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Scipio wrote:
Archdukechocula wrote:
Scipio wrote:
Hag Standard, GW, HA, SDC, rhbx2 = 168


Err, how exactly are you giving your hag any of those thing? Hags don't have any equipment options. They can only take stuff from the Temple of Khaine and/or the Cauldron and a battle standard.


Sorry let me clarify
Master BSB - Standard of Hag Graef


Ah. That makes a lot more sense :)

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:45 pm
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Scipio wrote:
Master BSB - Standard of Hag Graef, GW, HA, SDC, rhbx2 = 168
20 Corsairs - FC Banner of Murder and rhb's = 250 points make it 253 pts for 2nd rhb

frontage of 7 gets 16 shots (=> 18 shots)...x2 before combat (assuming they were able to shoot the first time at 8") and attacks 1st with static CR of 5
So it is a different use from what I initially understood. You want to make a mass unit.


Let's analyse and see how good can be corsairs with rhb.


For 421 pts (quite a big amount), you get to shoot once 18 shots (S3, AP) (at -1 against charging troops)
and then strike first with 8 corsair hits (S3, AP) and the 3 master's (S6, AP).
You get CR = 5 + your kills - his kills - his CR.

I believe I understand your expectations:
- Either the enemy charges with mundane troops and he looses many to the shootings (and looses some SCR) and to ASF hits (he looses many strike back attempts), kills back few corsairs and looses combat,
or
- the enemy charges with elite, armoured troops, looses few to shooting, a couple to ASF hits (especially the Master's), kills back a big number of corsairs but, because he has no SCR, he looses anyway
or
- the enemy charges with the big monster/mounted Lord, the animal faces a lot of needles while charging (EDIT: especially since back ranks can shoot at a big target, thanks Master of Arneim for your comment below), possibly killing it; in melee, the Master has little chances of killing the beast (a monster does not take challenges from the champ) but SCR makes the difference and corsairs will reroll the highest fleeing dice of the monster.

A danger in the second case is that his elite troops would remain in combat and eat progressively your SCR while not loosing anymore on shooting and loosing little in HtH.


How does it compare to 2-weapons corsairs?
Same price.
They don't get the 18 shots (S3, AP).
They have 5 more corsair hits (S3, AP), and keep them during combat.

- If you expect quick combats against troops with little armour, the rhb is much better.
- If you anticipate prolonged combats against heavily armoured troops, the ahw is better, but 5 more S3 attacks are not going to make a lot of kills so the few earlier rhb kills will be all that counts.
- Against a big monster/mounted lord, well, 18 shots have a better chance of killing the beast than 2 or 3 more hits (the width of the beast is less than 7 corsairs).

It seems an overall advantage for rhb against ahw.
A similar comparison would probably rate the rhb slightly over the spears, or at least very close taking into account that spears are 80pts cheaper:
18 shots to be compared with 7 more S3 melee attacks.


How does the master compare to an assassin?
Take an assassin, ahw, single rhb, tod(KB), roK(+1D3atk) = 161 pts (makes roughly the same price)
You loose a single rhb, out of 18. Small loss.
You loose ASF for all but the assassin. You may use the ASF standard and the BSB elsewhere.
Assassin hits 6 ASF S4 KB/AP instead of Master's 3 ASF S6 AP.

- Against ordinary troops, the assassin will wipe out the first rank, so the corsairs don't need ASF.
- Against elite troops, the assassin will wipe out the challenged champion or the 2 or 3 troops in front of him so he needs no armor. The corsairs will die before striking back (instead of striking first but inefficiently - before dying, with would be the case with the Master). Here as well, SCR will be the key factor. Not ASF.
- Against a Lord, the odds are much better for the KB assassin - but the mount will strike back. Against a monster, the Master is more useful. ASF or not, the corsairs will have trouble wounding the beast. There, SCR will work as usual.

Overall it seems to be the same, but you spared your ASF standard for another unit.


How does it compare to an MSU equivalent?
Take a 10 rhb corsair unit with musician. The cost is 105 pts, 1/4 of the big mass unit.
It takes no character slot nor BSB nor ASF standard.
Such small unit can shoot 20 shots, slightly more than the single big one, but not AP.
Of course it would loose HTH combat.

Now, for the price, you can take 4 of such units. Let's call them #1 to #4 and see what to do with #1 and #2 (do the same with #3 and #4).

- #1 walks (don't double-move or you loose your shot) at 6" from the enemy and shoots 20 shots, while #2 remains 4" behind. Enemy charges, #1 flees (average 7"), enemy cannot overrun, failed charge (moves 4").
- Next turn, same with #2 while #1 rallies (reorganises, moves 0", it is probably be too far to shoot at 8", which they cannot do anyhow).
- Now, #1 has moved backwards around 7"+0" while the enemy has moved formard 4"+4". Next turn, #1 positions itself forward or backward at 6" from the enemy (you can move backwards at half speed)...
- Proceed so until the enemy is sufficiently reduced downed in numbers then you can stand and shoot instead of fleeing (it happens also when you get too close from the table's edge and have no choice).

Of course, it works only against infantry. And sometimes they won't rally. Or sometimes the other unit will flee when the fleeing unit goes across it. And it is theory.
But then you don't risk being flank-charged nor loosing a standard or two if you loose a combat.
Overall, you would shoot a lot more, not AP but not -1 against charging units.
Killing expectancy is hard to compare, it depends on so many factors but I don't see obviously which unit would be the most efficient for the cost.


My conclusion is that you've found a perfectly valid mass unit (EDIT: that needs to be compared to other such units).
I suggest you studied an assassin instead of an ASF BSB.
The comparison between a solid mass unit and a couple of harassing small units is probably a choice between two styles, both could be efficient.

Try and tell us more!

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Last edited by Calisson on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:51 am, edited 5 times in total.



Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:01 pm
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@Calisson - certainly an excellent analysis and definitely the idea I was trying to convey.

The other advantage of using the bigger unit in this analysis is if you hold the charge you can essentially choose your opponents facing and give an easy flank charge to a supporting unit that skulks trailing behind and to a flank.

At any rate I think you might be right about taking an assassin instead. Certainly would depend on the list and environment as to which was more useful but just thinking about my own environment the assassin may have an edge.

Thanks!

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Anyone else find it kinda interesting that DE will not use gun powder because its unreliable but seem to have no problem using cold ones?


Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:57 pm
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Nah, I'd sooner have the xhw because destined for combat wheras I can have rxb sitting back and shooting, even DR and Shades to fill my shooting needs.

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Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:43 am
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Maybe I miss the point (4am), but all these calculations about corsairs with or without handows appear to tell us that, pretty much, corsairs suck when compared to rxbwmen with shields.
With handobw, they gain over xbws the always stand and shoot, which often it is not necessary, since usually just knights charge from within no-stand&shoot range. And they don't die to s3 bolts...

Note that I'm a huge fan of them, they nearly always find a place on the battlefield for me. Obviously, my comment is not valid with the sea serpent banner.

I'm too tired to go on, I'm not sure if what I said makes sense (even in English)


Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:42 am
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Quote:
The other advantage of using the bigger unit in this analysis is if you hold the charge you can essentially choose your opponents facing and give an easy flank charge to a supporting unit that skulks trailing behind and to a flank.


It's more probable that the enemy will countercharge because he'll have some points more than you.


Quote:
How does it compare to an MSU equivalent?
Take a 10 rhb corsair unit with musician. The cost is 105 pts, 1/4 of the big mass unit.
It takes no character slot nor BSB nor ASF standard.
Such small unit can shoot 20 shots, slightly more than the single big one, but not AP.
Of course it would loose HTH combat.

Now, for the price, you can take 4 of such units. Let's call them #1 to #4 and see what to do with #1 and #2 (do the same with #3 and #4).

- #1 walks (don't double-move or you loose your shot) at 6" from the enemy and shoots 20 shots, while #2 remains 4" behind. Enemy charges, #1 flees (average 7"), enemy cannot overrun, failed charge (moves 4").
- Next turn, same with #2 while #1 rallies (reorganises, moves 0", it is probably be too far to shoot at 8", which they cannot do anyhow).
- Now, #1 has moved backwards around 7"+0" while the enemy has moved formard 4"+4". Next turn, #1 positions itself forward or backward at 6" from the enemy (you can move backwards at half speed)...
- Proceed so until the enemy is sufficiently reduced downed in numbers then you can stand and shoot instead of fleeing (it happens also when you get too close from the table's edge and have no choice).

Of course, it works only against infantry. And sometimes they won't rally. Or sometimes the other unit will flee when the fleeing unit goes across it. And it is theory.
But then you don't risk being flank-charged nor loosing a standard or two if you loose a combat.
Overall, you would shoot a lot more, not AP but not -1 against charging units.
Killing expectancy is hard to compare, it depends on so many factors but I don't see obviously which unit would be the most efficient for the cost.


This analysis can be correct. But... why comparing with corsairs?
Would you like one unit of 418 pts with all the risks it brings (think about if you're playing against Vc... he'll throw against you the first unit of ghouls available pumping it over and over, so your unit will be wasted, or the risk for panic/fear/terror checks that even at Ld 9 can be missed) or 3 units of Rxbows with shields that cost less and shoot at 24"?

The answer is simple.

Again... so you'll go around with this huge unit firing at everyone that stands at 8" (note that you're not using 14 corsairs on 20, because they cannot shoot except for big targets or being on hill)... probably the first turn you'll not fire, let's assume that you'll fire for the remain of the battle (5 turns) and remember that you cannot march, so considering 5 turns is even optimistic.
Even assuming the double rhb for corsair champion and master we have 14 bs4 shoots and other 4 at Bs6, all with Ap.

So let's make a little table:

Against T3:
As 5+ (base troop)
4,30 kills per turn (21,5 for the whole game)

As 4+
3,44 (17,22)

As 3+
2,58 (12,91)

As 2+
1,72 (8,61)

Against T4:

As 5+ (orks with light armour and shield)
2,87 (14,35)

As 4+
2,29 (11,48 )

As 3+
1,72 (8,61)

As 2+
1,14 (5,74)

Remember that these are estimates of damage dealt if shooting for 5 turns. Even considering the best result (21 casualties on infantry with T3 and as 5+) I'd be not much impressed that a unit of 400 pts could kill 20 clanrats in a game...

If I was the opponent I'd keep my core and unexpencive unit of forgottenbygod men in front of this uber unit at 1 inch as soon as possible. So, if this unit charge it should even pursue or overrun because hates, if not I'd stay there blocking its line of sight for the whole match, hoping not to fail my Ld checks.

Now with all these numbers, try to do some mathwarhammer assuming to have in front of you 15 bloodletters with herald or same amount of daemonettes with herald (so striking first), or again 20 Ghouls that do not break and can be summoned at D6 per spell, or a bretonnian lance, or dwarves, or a steam tank, or a couple of units of templars or the chance of survive when comes the enemy shooting phase, that on average starts 24" inches away from you, or someone that waits for you at the edge of the board (you'll need 3 turn of march move to reach his lines) etc etc... 420 pts and it's not an all round unit?

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Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:48 am
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@Master of Arneim
You're not fair in your computations:

You did not take in your estimations the following points:
1- AP brought by the banneer
2- the idea to win combat, mostly through SCR.

You computed some killing expectations that did not take into account points 1- nor 2-.

The idea is not to shoot 5 times at 8" as you mention ("firing at everyone that stands at 8")", but to shoot once at 8" (obviously not always possible) and to stand and shoot once (always possible except if flank/rear charged) at one threatening unit (so your description of only shooting 5 times is valid only if the enemy does not dare to charge and accepts to receive the eventual, short-range shooting).

Sure, if the enemy refuses the charge, the 418 pts über unit will not earn its cost... just like any über, non shooting unit unable to find an opponent waiting for it.

In your example, the "unexpencive unit of forgottenbygod" will receive each turn 18 shots S3, AP, it will probably not last long. That is an advantage compared to another kind of über unit designed to charge, and forced to pursue that unexpensive unit baiting it. The intend here is never to charge any unit but to shoot at them and be prepared to receive the charge. So it is not victim of baiting and can still take care of baiters.

Quote:
try to do some mathwarhammer

- bloodletters, daemonettes, Ghouls => I don't have the AB
- bretonnian lance, dwarves, steam tank, templars => I have the AB, but not any time yet.

Any other standard unit that needs to be confronted in that study?

Then we should compare the performance against those sample units by rhb corsairs to a similar mass unit of spears, to frenzied corsairs, or WE before we conclude whether it is viable or not.

Would you take part of that thorough evaluation?

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Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:32 pm
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To reply at last post:

Quote:
1- AP brought by the banneer

That has been considered in the results, because the As shown has been decreased by the -1. So As 5+ becomes 6+, 4+ 5+ etc. if you do calculation you'll notice that I'm right.

Quote:
2- the idea to win combat, mostly through SCR.


This presents a major problem with this unit.
Everyone who plays from some time has really learned that a big and expencive infantry unit never earns his points back. Never.
The interesting fact about this kind of unit is that it can shoot. And this was my point: normally a 420 infantry unit would be not worth: is it worth if shooting multiple arrows with Ap? the answer is again no.

Quote:
The idea is not to shoot 5 times at 8" as you mention ("firing at everyone that stands at 8")", but to shoot once at 8" (obviously not always possible) and to stand and shoot once (always possible except if flank/rear charged) at one threatening unit (so your description of only shooting 5 times is valid only if the enemy does not dare to charge and accepts to receive the eventual, short-range shooting).

Sure, if the enemy refuses the charge, the 418 pts über unit will not earn its cost... just like any über, non shooting unit unable to find an opponent waiting for it.


You said it for me: why should I charge or take the fire from this unit if I can avoid it and take down the rest of the army?
This unit then cannot move very fast and can be marchblocked very easily, so it will be very likely far away from your main targets.

Quote:
In your example, the "unexpencive unit of forgottenbygod" will receive each turn 18 shots S3, AP, it will probably not last long. That is an advantage compared to another kind of über unit designed to charge, and forced to pursue that unexpensive unit baiting it. The intend here is never to charge any unit but to shoot at them and be prepared to receive the charge. So it is not victim of baiting and can still take care of baiters.


Numbers speak. 25 clanrats are 125 pts with shields and light armour (so 5+ as becoming 6+ cause the Ap). As it has been shown above they'll take 4 casualties and something per turn(and even consider that they're a fast troop, so can reach the inch from your unit very quickly). This is the progression of their casualties:

turn 2 (as said we must consider that you'll not be able to shoot in the 1st turn): they get 4 casualties and 4/25 isn't enough for a panic check.
turn 3: from 21 they drop to 17. Again this is not enough for a panic check.
turn 4: now you get 5 kills (one more before because the wounds are 4,30 per turn, so this turn I assume that you got the 5th killed). At this point they test at Ld 5+1 (rank) and if the general is near they can test on a result of 7/8. Even considering that they fail their test, fleeing directly out from the table you manage to get 125 pts in a total of 3 turns +1 for moving.

Ghouls charging: other example

20 ghouls (about 120 pts) charge your unit (I even assume that he doesn't use the dance macabre to prevent your shooting phase, and even assuming that the Vc doesn't throw any spell to enlarge this unit). They got a shooting phase before the charge and the stand and shoot reaction: they undergo 6 casualties in total from your arrows (5,88 ). When getting in contact they undergo other 7 corsair attacks + 3 from master (I'm assuming that you passed the fear check at Ld 9), so again 4 kills (4,29, master with great weapon). At this point even assuming that they will not strike back, they loose the combat by 8 so remaining in 2. They are few indeed, and the numbers show that the corsair unit destroyed the undead one... but... there are still 2 more. You'll need at least another turn to wipe them out (and that could be easy due to the fact that the Vc cannot summon more ghouls in your phase), but even then you'll have earned 120 pts in 2 turns and thanks to the fact that they charged.
This means (considering a column of ghouls units ready to take the fire and the s&s reaction) doing 120x3=360 pts in 6 turns (as said 120 per turn). Again the unit doesn't repay itself.

P.s: I didn't exagerate the size unit above and I think that everyone has faced them more than one time when fighting vc or skaven.

Those up there are simple averages and numbers. My discussion is about the effectiveness or not, considering the dice results. I've not took in account any enemy reaction on seeing this big unit on the table, errors and mainly other units and combos.

I do not mean that using this kind of unit should not be fun/interesting and maybe even a good choice with a particular list. What I say is that in a one on one battle numbers stay on the side of other kind of units or sizes.

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Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:49 pm
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Or you can just keep a chariot nearby to wipe out the front rank with impact hits and then cut down what's left. It's cheaper.


Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:28 pm
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Highborn
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Master of Arneim wrote:
That has been considered in the results, because the As shown has been decreased by the -1. So As 5+ becomes 6+, 4+ 5+ etc. if you do calculation you'll notice that I'm right.


Actually I think the kills are slightly better then what is stated since the BSB gets 4 shots hitting on 2's.

And when charged the unit will take a -1 for shooting at a charging opponent. So on the charge slightly less.

Master of Arneim wrote:
You said it for me: why should I charge or take the fire from this unit if I can avoid it and take down the rest of the army?
This unit then cannot move very fast and can be marchblocked very easily, so it will be very likely far away from your main targets.


Depends on your deployment and supporting units.


Master of Arneim wrote:
Numbers speak. 25 clanrats are 125 pts with shields and light armour (so 5+ as becoming 6+ cause the Ap). As it has been shown above they'll take 4 casualties and something per turn(and even consider that they're a fast troop, so can reach the inch from your unit very quickly). This is the progression of their casualties:


Numbers speak up to a certain point but then there is that unknown that i love so much in this game. So said 25 clanrats are likely hiding behind a 40 point unit of 20 slaves. Now if I had 20 Corsairs with SSS banner I will likely have to charge said 40 point unit and then gloriously slaughter them but be redirected so his clan rats now have a flank charge and who knows he may have his warlord in that unit but if not he will also be shooting into combat with the rattling gun that is trying to hide from my RBT's and/or xbows.

In other words Mathhammer might show 20 corsairs with 2 xhwp's and SSS standard to be the better choice but not in this case.

So lets consider what the corsair unit with rhb's gives you in the above example. So seeing the trap set by the slaves I stroll up and shoot and maybe cause a panic check on the slaves which they will pass on a 9 or 10 ldr but rat boy has a decision to make since his slaves are in the way and I am not charging. To charge with the slaves or not but either way he won't get my flank on his turn to counter charge. His best option is to charge the slaves and I destroy them, be forced to pursue and maybe or maybe not charge into the clan rats. If he delays a turn in making a decision his options begin to evaporate very rapidly as superior DE flanking forces destroy his flanks.

Most skaven generals are going to house a character in a clanrat unit and maybe or maybe not a weapon team and slaves are a must.

So your right the Corsair unit is not likely to "earn its points back" but it didn't take the bait and it buys my flanking units a turn and was not destroyed either so thereby not giving my opponent any points. (although that being said if the skaven housed an Assassin of his own in the clan rat unit they might win ;) )

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Anyone else find it kinda interesting that DE will not use gun powder because its unreliable but seem to have no problem using cold ones?


Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:20 pm
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Master of Arneim wrote:
Numbers speak. 25 clanrats are 125 pts with shields and light armour (so 5+ as becoming 6+ cause the Ap). As it has been shown above they'll take 4 casualties and something per turn(and even consider that they're a fast troop, so can reach the inch from your unit very quickly). This is the progression of their casualties:


They are 150 with FC and another 60 with rattling gun crew, add 40 for the 20 slave unit that you will want to buy plus warlord, Grey Seer, assassin, warlock etc...which will most likely be hiding in there since those are safe places for them.

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Anyone else find it kinda interesting that DE will not use gun powder because its unreliable but seem to have no problem using cold ones?


Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:27 pm
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I have a cheap 118pt unit with handbows I use.........

NOt to big a concession that I feel like I'm sacrificing to much but I still get to use somehting I just love the idea of.

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Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:43 pm
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Quote:
Actually I think the kills are slightly better then what is stated since the BSB gets 4 shots hitting on 2's.


Against T3 as 5+

14x0,5 (hitting on 4+ because of double shoot) x0,5 (wounding on 4+) x5/6 (as at 6+)= 2,9167
+
4x5/6 (hitting on 2) x0,5 x5/6 = 1,38889
=
4,3055555555

There is nothing wrong here, and so for other calculations. If they suck it's not my fault.

Quote:
Master of Arneim said:
You said it for me: why should I charge or take the fire from this unit if I can avoid it and take down the rest of the army?
This unit then cannot move very fast and can be marchblocked very easily, so it will be very likely far away from your main targets.




Depends on your deployment and supporting units.


You can deploy as you wish, but I will be sure of avoiding your big nasty block of infantry if I want to, but this not because I'm a superplayer, but because, as said, if the unit is marchblocked, getting 5" per turn will get your unit not much far away.

Quote:
So lets consider what the corsair unit with rhb's gives you in the above example. So seeing the trap set by the slaves I stroll up and shoot and maybe cause a panic check on the slaves which they will pass on a 9 or 10 ldr but rat boy has a decision to make since his slaves are in the way and I am not charging. To charge with the slaves or not but either way he won't get my flank on his turn to counter charge. His best option is to charge the slaves and I destroy them, be forced to pursue and maybe or maybe not charge into the clan rats. If he delays a turn in making a decision his options begin to evaporate very rapidly as superior DE flanking forces destroy his flanks.


I do not reach your point here... If the rat one has got 40 pts of slaves (20) and 125 (even 150, also if I rarely see a clanrat unit with banner) that means that you get 420 points as stated, and the rat man gets 190. there are 230 pts around by the side of the rat. How can you surround him?
It's quite sure that when facing a Skaven your units will be less than his.

Then again, for the rat the best solution would be cover his troops with a block of 30/40 slaves, hoping to never take a panic test (and this could be very probable), then destroy your unit with ratling and so on. He has no need to come to hth with his firepower. At least, this is what I've experienced when facing skaven.

Quote:
They are 150 with FC and another 60 with rattling gun crew, add 40 for the 20 slave unit that you will want to buy plus warlord, Grey Seer, assassin, warlock etc...which will most likely be hiding in there since those are safe places for them.


This is a game that I don't like. It's not sure that he would park his characters in front of your uber unit and then If he has got a ratling gun he could kill many of your corsair staying back at 15", but you'd suggest that you get the Rbts, so it should be difficult for the ratling survive the fire. So I say that there is a grey seer in the rat unit casting plague on your 21 men unit, halving them, and you'd answer that he could not have this spell and if he gets it you'd field the ring of Hotek. If there is the ring I should say that the skaven has got the storm banner, so all of your shooting becomes crap, and you'll answer that a 2 is always behind the corner etc etc. Nonsense.

Surely you said that right: mathwarhammer doesn't show all and of course my word is not the God's one, but what is sure is that the frontage of 7 with handbows is not so a big threat. That was my point.

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Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:52 pm
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If mathhammer showed all everyone would play the same army.

yes the unit with Handbows can be quite effective and wipe out some enemies using different traps or panic enemies before they reach combat.
But there is no denying this is a very expensive unit which might or might not have a limited effect.

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Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:50 am
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Master Arneim wrote:
I do not reach your point here... If the rat one has got 40 pts of slaves (20) and 125 (even 150, also if I rarely see a clanrat unit with banner) that means that you get 420 points as stated, and the rat man gets 190. there are 230 pts around by the side of the rat. How can you surround him?
It's quite sure that when facing a Skaven your units will be less than his.


Hummm...do you play Skaven often?

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Anyone else find it kinda interesting that DE will not use gun powder because its unreliable but seem to have no problem using cold ones?


Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:50 am
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