Shields

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A.gentleman
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Shields

Post by A.gentleman »

Ok, now my friend and I were talking about armour saves. He was under the impression that shields confered no save in close combat and only offered any protection against ranged weapons. I.e. DE warrior with light armour and shield gets 5+ save against ranged attacks but only 6+ in close combat.
I am doubtful and can't find anything to that effect in the rule book but I thought it was best to check with you guys.

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A.Gentleman
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Post by Aenor »

Shields always give you +1 AS, and in close combat another +1. Foe example, you have warriors with LA and shields. Armour save against ranged attacks is 5+, while in close combat it is increased to 4+. Hope this helps.
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Mr. anderson
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Post by Mr. anderson »

aenor wrote:Shields always give you +1 AS, and in close combat another +1. Foe example, you have warriors with LA and shields. Armour save against ranged attacks is 5+, while in close combat it is increased to 4+. Hope this helps.


Wrong. Shields always give +1 AS no matter what. If you happen to be using a mundane handweapon (or any weapon that has the "handweapon" rule) you receive another +1 for fighting with handweapon and shields. So in aenor's example you would still only have a 5+ AS in combat (spearmen for example) while using any weapon other than a handweapon. If the Spearmen use handweapons, then their spears cannot be used so they only attack from one rank but then they do get the 4+ armour save.

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Post by Crawd »

I might be wrong, but isn't it just in the front that you get the Handweapon + Shield bonus?
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Silverheimdall
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Post by Silverheimdall »

The rules you are looking for are..

Shooting - Armour Saves on page 30
Close Combat - Taking Saving Throws on page 36 (explains that you use the same rules for armour save as found in shooting section)
Weapons - Fighting with Hand Weapon and Shield (Infantry) on page 56

These will give you the answers you need to convince your friend on how it works.

Also, Hand Weapons need to be defined as such, a Spear is not a Hand Weapon, for example. So as it was said above, when fighting an enemy in the front arc of your unit, you can select Hand Weapon & shield, ignoring your spears to give you a better armour save.

Against anything S3-S4, youll still have a decent save.
Against anything S5-S6, just go for the spears to get whatever few attacks back and hope to get some combat result back.

And remember you cannot swap weapon/shield style unless its an entirely new combat, in ongoing combats you have to keep to what you chose to fight with in the first round.
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Post by Lakissov »

I would like to add a it to Silver's advise about the choice of hand weapon versus spears for spearmen. As I have personally found (based on some number crunching), what should mainly affect the choice is the toughness and armor of the opponent. Against anything with T3, you use spears, unless the armor of the opponent is 3+ or better. With T4, armor of 4+ is enough to prefer hand weapon. Against T5, always use hand weapon - your additional S3 attacks are worthless anyway.
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Prince daerlythe
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Post by Prince daerlythe »

I'm pretty sure that what they mean by 'hand weapon + shield' is any one-handed weapon paired with a shield.

Using your example, though, in answer to the original question, shields will always give a +1AS, and a further +1 if in close combat to the front. This additional bonus is only available to infantry, though. So this means that a warrior with a shield will have a 5+ AS against range, a 5+ AS against attacks from the flank or rear, and a 4+AS against the front.

I'll be posting back shortly to my first point. I'm heading to a Games Workshop today, so I'll ask the question to them, see what we can get out of it.
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Silverheimdall
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Post by Silverheimdall »

No no no. Hand Weapon is clearly defined in the rulebook. A spear is not a Hand Weapon.

Choppas and Beastmaster's Scourge are Hand Weapons.
All Magic Weapons are NOT Hand Weapons unless defined as such (Whip of Agony, Dagger of Hotek, Bretonnian Sword I forget the name, etc)
Spears are Spears, not Hand Weapons, different rules for different weapons!

If you use Spears, you do not gain the Parry Bonus to the front, so 5+ armour.
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Post by Rabidnid »

SilverHeimdall wrote:No no no. Hand Weapon is clearly defined in the rulebook. A spear is not a Hand Weapon.


Yep, pg 56 of the BRB
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Fr0
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Post by Fr0 »

No, because you can't get the parry bonus if you use a spear and shield.
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Prince daerlythe
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Post by Prince daerlythe »

I checked with GW staff, and you guys are right. Spears do not count as hand weapons. My bad. 8)
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Mr. anderson
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Post by Mr. anderson »

Prince Daerlythe wrote:I checked with GW staff


Umm... there is a general rule around here - if someone asks a GW employee for rules clarifications and then post whatever they said, the argument is automatically lost for that side ;)

GW staff usually are no more capable at solving rules problems than experience players are, and often you will get contradicting answers from different GW employees, sometimes ever from the same person.

And I forgot to add that HW/S only counts towards the front as it has been said.

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