Druchii fluff aggression

[Lord uramael]

~hi, i just need to flush some pressure. I have been trying to figure why i felt frustrated every game i played.

Fear not i love the druchii, but the more i think about it, the more i feel that the book doesn't tell the truth about what is a Druchii army

I had the fortune/misfortune to buy the book and a few units before reading the stats (the models are absolutely awesome) so i got a little surprised when i started counting the points and fighting.

Let's look at some of the statements that are really annoying in the book:
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1. "Dark Elves excels in all aspects of warfare"

This is not true, they are a very specialised force and lack severely in some aspects: (heavy infantry, artillery, powerful missle weapon troops)

2. "All Dark Elves are extremely skilled at using their weapons"

A very misleading statement. While we do have decent WS, only the executioners show a special training with their weapons...unlike the high elves who have many troops who do (white lions, swordmasters, regular spearmens...).

3. "They are fast-moving and have good morale, the hallmarks of a classic elite force...

Not completely true, a classic elite force would be fast, strong and have a good morale. Also, elite implies outnumbered but also completely reliable: this is not where you should find stupid units!

4.Dark Elves warriors- [...] "and their lives are expendible should an occasion arise when you must sacrifice a part of your army to ensure victory"[...]

This statement is annoying me to the extreme. I have yet to find a situation where sacrificing my troops do any good to dark elves. Orcs, skaven, empire, to an extent chaos...lizardmen can sacrifice a part of their army and still have enough to secure victory...

5. Executioners- Killing Blow- "able to deliver a fatal hit to even the largest of foes"

This is a stupid comment and it only serves to add fluff...but it in a misleading way: Killing blow do NOT affect large foes...

6.Black Guard "[...]However, do not misuse their abilities[...]"

Errata: should read "do not overestimate"

7. Dark Riders- "are experts at the use of the rxbow, long spears...[...]

They are just as good as any fast cavalry with their weapons...and their statistics are the same as regular warriors.

----------------

You'll notice that the fluff is written by a dark elf, so he sure is putting a +++ on the qualities of our troops...but the introduction & rules aren't. Propaganda should not be used in a troop's description

The army list seems to respond very well when you know who you will be fighting, but in tournaments you do not. Most tournament armies i have seen/played are made along the same archetype and sadly the most unpredictable part of our army is our characters, not troops. This is due in most part that we have very few polyvalent units and an elite force is the embodiment of the word: flexibility.

A lot of fluff also contribute to giving an image of a numerous nation; how could a society in such low numbers accept the concept of murder/sacrifice/bloodshed in its own ranks?

How could a society so advanced in sorcery be so limited in useful magic items? I mean there are about 4-5 items that we all use constantly.

How the hell do the models you buy all look in heavy armor while often having a miserable goblin's save? that is still a mystery.

These are just a fast glimpse at what i think is the root of the problem with the army list: there is a contradiction/illusion between what you read in the book and what you put on the table.

Thanks for reading this, i hope to hear from you and maybe finally find the "soft spot" that i think leaves an emptiness feeling in Druchii commanders.

-Lord Uramael

[Draichlord]

RE: item 4 about "sacrificing a part of the army should the need arise" is directly countered in the same book with a statement that "while other armies can afford to lose units, the DE can not". Bear in mind a dwarf player who doesn't even own a DE army wrote our book. Now that they have you by the balls, turn your head and cough.......

[Pokeme]

All I have to say is...........you are not alone

[Elvenknight]

4.Dark Elves warriors- [...] "and their lives are expendible should an occasion arise when you must sacrifice a part of your army to ensure victory"[...]

Well they can be sacraficed to save a Highborns rear end.

[Sneaky]

~hi, i just need to flush some pressure. I have been trying to figure why i felt frustrated every game i played.

Fear not i love the druchii, but the more i think about it, the more i feel that the book doesn't tell the truth about what is a Druchii army

I had the fortune/misfortune to buy the book and a few units before reading the stats (the models are absolutely awesome) so i got a little surprised when i started counting the points and fighting.

Let's look at some of the statements that are really annoying in the book:

Well I'll look at your statements in this light. I understand your frustration in general, but I'll comment on a few things...

1. "Dark Elves excels in all aspects of warfare"

This is not true, they are a very specialised force and lack severely in some aspects: (heavy infantry, artillery, powerful missle weapon troops)

I disagree to a point. They are a specialised force, true, but I'm not sure they are as lacking as you make it seem. The only real failing in terms of shooting is that they lack gunpowder, which can give an extra oomph. As for heavy infantry, I think you mean something with some excellent armour or something. I agree on this point, but you can use COKs to double as heavy infantry. Same dea with Hydrae.

I don't think that Dark Elves are lacking in anything in particular; indeed, they are not too bad at certain points. But they just lack something really outstanding. It's all more or less ordinary.

2. "All Dark Elves are extremely skilled at using their weapons"

A very misleading statement. While we do have decent WS, only the executioners show a special training with their weapons...unlike the high elves who have many troops who do (white lions, swordmasters, regular spearmens...).

Perhaps it is misleading, but it depends on how you read it. It's a fluff piece, not really a rule thing. It reflects the fact that Dark Elves have a higher-than-average weapon skill in general. That's all it means.

3. "They are fast-moving and have good morale, the hallmarks of a classic elite force...

Not completely true, a classic elite force would be fast, strong and have a good morale. Also, elite implies outnumbered but also completely reliable: this is not where you should find stupid units!

Not completely true, perhaps, but they are elitist enough to make the statement valid. I will agree that it's a little misleading. It depends on how you read it.

4.Dark Elves warriors- [...] "and their lives are expendible should an occasion arise when you must sacrifice a part of your army to ensure victory"[...]

This statement is annoying me to the extreme. I have yet to find a situation where sacrificing my troops do any good to dark elves. Orcs, skaven, empire, to an extent chaos...lizardmen can sacrifice a part of their army and still have enough to secure victory...

I use a cavalry army, so I wouldn't know from experience. But you can use them to draw charges, because they are cheap and can take the charge - two ranks attacking when charged. They can draw a charge and then the enemy gets flanked next turn. It depends on how many men per regiment too - a unit of 12 spearmen is expendable.

But I keep finding that with my cavalry army that my Dark Riders are useful as expendables (and the situation comes up often when I need to tie up enemy troops for a turn or two). At 120 points a regiment, they are useful in that regard.

5. Executioners- Killing Blow- "able to deliver a fatal hit to even the largest of foes"

This is a stupid comment and it only serves to add fluff...but it in a misleading way: Killing blow do NOT affect large foes...

Yep. That's pretty stupid of them.

6.Black Guard "[...]However, do not misuse their abilities[...]"

Errata: should read "do not overestimate"

7. Dark Riders- "are experts at the use of the rxbow, long spears...[...]

They are just as good as any fast cavalry with their weapons...and their statistics are the same as regular warriors.

But their BS is better. They are the second best fast cavalry in the game, so don't knock 'em.

You'll notice that the fluff is written by a dark elf, so he sure is putting a +++ on the qualities of our troops...but the introduction & rules aren't. Propaganda should not be used in a troop's description

Actually, all the italicized text is meant to be written by that Druchii Warrior...

The army list seems to respond very well when you know who you will be fighting, but in tournaments you do not. Most tournament armies i have seen/played are made along the same archetype and sadly the most unpredictable part of our army is our characters, not troops. This is due in most part that we have very few polyvalent units and an elite force is the embodiment of the word: flexibility.

This is true, but I wouldn't classify it as a weak point. On the contrary, it's a good thing because that way you're thinking about your tactics and stuff all the time. You don't just plonk down your stuff and charge it, it's much more complex than that.

A lot of fluff also contribute to giving an image of a numerous nation; how could a society in such low numbers accept the concept of murder/sacrifice/bloodshed in its own ranks?

True. I always feel that there is a larger population in Naggaroth than is let on, but of course they never mention this in the fluff... not that it makes a difference; this is all fiction and not very believable fiction at that.

How could a society so advanced in sorcery be so limited in useful magic items? I mean there are about 4-5 items that we all use constantly.

Gav failed a stupidity test while he wrote the magic items for the Dark Elves. That's why. It's a major sore point for me too, because it implies that GW aren't putting out a good quality product. They need to fix the magic items.

How the hell do the models you buy all look in heavy armor while often having a miserable goblin's save? that is still a mystery.

Another failed stupidity test.

These are just a fast glimpse at what i think is the root of the problem with the army list: there is a contradiction/illusion between what you read in the book and what you put on the table.

Thanks for reading this, i hope to hear from you and maybe finally find the "soft spot" that i think leaves an emptiness feeling in Druchii commanders.

-Lord Uramael

Explore the site and you will see that you are not alone in your beliefs for the most part. I personally think that the only real problem with the list is that it needs a bit of a tweak. They should have playtested a few more times, because there is no way that some of that stuff would have passed had they properly playtested. It feels to me like a sloppy, half-finished list. If they sit down and work on it and FIX it, then I'm happy, but that won't be for a while.

To me, the whole problem is that GW are focussing too much on 40K and are forgetting about Fantasy. They are realising that 40K is more than an offshoot from Fantasy and are getting so caught up in it that they are completely forgetting the past. The only real way to combat this is to have two completely separate factions - one group in GW go Fantasy, another goes 40K. They have let the Fantasy world go too much and are settling for second best.

[Elvenknight]

Maybe we should move the Witch King within 6" or so of Gav so Gav doesn't fail as many stupidity tests

[Grogsnotpowwabomba]

I feel your pain. Just make the best of it until the problems are sorted out.

I really do feel they will be in time. Be patient, and you will be glad you held on to your Druchii when they are made strong again.

[Lord draekor]

I really do feel they will be in time. Be patient, and you will be glad you held on to your Druchii when they are made strong again.

That's what I thought back in 5th edition. Imagine how upset I was when the 6th edition book was released. So don't hold your breath.

[Grogsnotpowwabomba]

I really do feel they will be in time. Be patient, and you will be glad you held on to your Druchii when they are made strong again.

That's what I thought back in 5th edition. Imagine how upset I was when the 6th edition book was released. So don't hold your breath.

I'm not telling anyone to hold their breath. It will be quite awhile. But I am optimistic that the list will be improved.

[The word of pain]

All your points are valid....ish, but it's only fluff. The truth is in the stats and to be honest the stats aren't bad. Ok there are lots of units I wouldn't put on the board, but that's the same for all armies. I like to play hard, fast and aggressive and the Dark Elves fit that catergory perfectly. I love them, ok I'd love a few updates, but nowhere near the number your suggesting. I would update, beastmasters, stupidity, magic items and maybe heavy armour for Ex's ( I still wouldn't use them!)

[Dekhalan]

I agree with Lord Uramael's first post that the Dark Elves are overhyped in their army book and the fluff does not really translate well onto the battlefield (It does other times though). I didn't think the book was too bad in the months after I bought it, but as armies with 'better' lists come out I slam our own book harder and harder.

I won't stop collecting and playing the Dark Elves though - I'll hold until the update ! (And there will be an update...there better ! )

[Linda lobsta defenda]

well i actually disagree with you.

we have skilled troops, everyone has higher then average WS and I and M and LD. what else do you want?

the dark riders are experts at what they do, that is why they are fast cavalry.

i think you are confusing the words "extremely skilled" and "experts" with "special rules" a unit doesn't have to have special rules to be good. we have above average troops. they are costly and they are very deadly when used right. a classic elite force.

note it never sais "we have the best fast cav" (though we do) they say "experts".

sorry if i sound harsh but i am getting a wee bit tired of people trying to find things to complain about

[The word of pain]

Here, here, another voice orf reason! I thought for a while it was just little old me

[Dark Alliance]

I would like updates too, stupidity and magic banners in particular, but with a high personal win ratio I have to be honest and say they can work. Sorry.

Still firmly in the should be updated camp though. And yes the fluff does hype them.

[Lord uramael]

I would like to thank all that replied. I chose to go on the "aggression" type of post to attract the attention, but also for the following reasons:

I play various armies in both whfb wh40k (Space Marines,40k Orks, Dark Eldar, Craftworld Eldar, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen, Vampire Counts for a time then finally settling on Druchii/Dark Eldar).

With all the previous armies, what decided me to play them is the fluff and the models. Fortunately for me, so far all the books had their fluff very faithful of the army on the table. Since it was my first glance at Druchii background, i assumed that it would reflect itself on the field and in my opinion it did not and i felt frustrated.

By posting aggressively toward our book/rules/fluff i knew that i would attract a bit of scowling, but i also knew that i could perhaps find some people in the same situation. Notice that i did not suggest anything as to solve the problem: my only goal was to find why i was not happy with the current army list...and well the best way of doing so is by asking around if others feel the same way.

I am not whining to get stats boosts or magical items, but i am asking if others felt that the fluff didn't reflect their army on the table

Lord Uramael

[Decheran]

i know that special rules won't make us good, but i would still like a special rule that is uniquely druchii

sneaky, i would like to know what you think the best fast cav in the game is? (im not chalenging you, just curious)

[Sneaky]

Pistoliers by a long shot (no pun intended). Their -2 to armour save is a big bonus.

And good points, Linda. Helps put things into perspective.

[Lord uramael]

Not only that but the riders get 2 str 4 attacks when they charge(pistols so -2 save again)

I think every Druchii agrees that the dark riders are one of our most useful unit...it is quite sad though that their weapons aren't in par(spear and rxbow are nothing to drool at).

[Crimsondeath]

Pistoliers by a long shot (no pun intended). Their -2 to armour save is a big bonus.

I don't think it's as clear cut as you seem to think. Pistoliers *are* very good, but I'm not convinced they are better then our Dark Riders, just different.

Pistoliers, for example, only have Ld 7, and can't take a musician - so they are not so good at rallying.

In addition, don't forget that they have a pitiful 8" range for their pistols.

Finally (and not so relevant), they take up a Special instead of a Core slot.

[Crimsondeath]

we have skilled troops, everyone has higher then average WS and I and M and LD. what else do you want?

How about S, T and AS?

(Well, you DID ask what I want...)

WS and I are pretty soft stats really.

Our M rate is now looking decidedly average! (cf Skaven, Beasts of Chaos)

And our LD is _good_, but hardly anything special (better than most O&G, some empire, effectively equivalent to Skaven, less than Dwarfs, Lizardmen & VC, and about the same as Chaos)

[Linda lobsta defenda]

[quote="CrimsonDeathWS and I are pretty soft stats really.

Our M rate is now looking decidedly average! (cf Skaven, Beasts of Chaos)

And our LD is _good_, but hardly anything special (better than most O&G, some empire, effectively equivalent to Skaven, less than Dwarfs, Lizardmen & VC, and about the same as Chaos)[/color][/quote]

i personally think i is an important stat specially with fragile troops. that means if we by some reason do not break the enemy on the charge we can at least make sure to suffer few attacks in the next round. for dwarves i isn't important as they can take a few blows. but to us it is important.

M of 5 being "average"?? exuse me? just because skaven and beastmen have the same move as our elves we are suddenly average? what about the dwarves with 3, empire, brettonia, undead, dogs of war etc with 4. oh wait the maximum that infantry have across an army is now average? please explain that. i am sure my students will be happy when I say "i am sorry there were 2 people that aced the test so they are now just average, the rest of you are under average"


ws IS important. hitting the enemy on 3+ is A LOT better then 4+.

"and our LD is _good_, but hardly anything special" ahh i think you hti the head on the nail... you are not content with "good" you want "best". and that is where it all falls apart for you.

sorry if the next sentence is harsh but read it with tounge in cheek:

your whole post comes off as a whiny kid going "mommy i want the best army at everything with no flaws. noone is to have anything better"

yes i know that is not what you are saying, but I do feel that if you sit down and think you will see that there is something about it. you don't seem content with "good" LD. if you are not pleased with core with LD 8 and lords with 10 then there is something wrong.

btw chaos has worse LD then us.

[Grogsnotpowwabomba]

we have skilled troops, everyone has higher then average WS and I and M and LD. what else do you want?

How about S, T and AS?

(Well, you DID ask what I want...)

WS and I are pretty soft stats really.

Our M rate is now looking decidedly average! (cf Skaven, Beasts of Chaos)

This is the problem all Elven armies face in 6th Edition. It really is all about S, T, AS. WS and I take a back seat, and unfortunately, that is what Elves excel in.

[Lord uramael]

"your whole post comes off as a whiny kid going "mommy i want the best army at everything with no flaws. noone is to have anything better"


I think you shot 30 yards off target with that one Linda . No offense but i think no dark elf player wants the best army blah blah blah.

What i wish and what i think most dark elves wish is a niche. Something that "defines" the army, something that we could identify to. It is to dark elves what artillery is to empire...it is to dark elves what cold blood is to lizardmen...it is to dark elves what number is to a skaven...it is to dark elves what cavalry is to Bretonnia

I think you get my point there, the goal is NOT to have the best army and cry...it is to have an army that is specialised in one area and be feared for it...

I think we could have found a huge part of our problem: the warhammer system do encourage the "Conan" mentality...I mean what would you fear the most:

WS6 Str3 or WS3 Str5 ? Ini 10 T3 or T6 Ini 3? Mv8 str4 or Mv9 str3?

This could be the reason why the fluff doesn't follow well on the table...

[Linda lobsta defenda]

I think you shot 30 yards off target with that one Linda . No offense but i think no dark elf player wants the best army blah blah blah.

note i never said that he wanted it. i said he came across like he wanted it. there is a big difference.

and we actually do have a very good niche. as a hardhitting but fragile cc army with plenty of fast cav. it is a good nice as shoot em dead is.

so i actually think you misunderstood my entire post.

[Dekhalan]

and we actually do have a very good niche. as a hardhitting but fragile cc army with plenty of fast cav. it is a good nice as shoot em dead is.

Not really a niche as we do not have 'plenty of fast cav.' Just the Dark Riders. One unit cannot make a niche for the army.