Tactical musings on the new book

[Haplo]

@ Matras

We can both agree on the ring being a "must have Item", but against VC it just isn't awsome, just plain good. It will work against the van hels(which is the multible die spell you really want to dispel) but likely only if he is trying to charge the unit with the ring. You can't rely on it to stop him from casting spells with 3 or more dice. He would simply go for a lot of 1 die spells casting them with +2 making you need atleast 2 DD to be sure of getting rid of it. Your DD and scrolls won't last long against that. The big vampire can heal himself so most of the miscast results he won't even care about because the spells with 3 or more dice will be the last to go.

@ Grogsnotpowwabomba

I'm not saying its a massive disadvantage, but it still has a weakness we didn't have before and a good player will use it against you. It will most likely be the NOT ItP armies with cheap sacraficial stuff that will be doing it against you and not the high powered armies of VC and demons. But thankfully we seem to have the tools to get rid of those units like great eagles, skaven litter and wolfriders.

But as I said these are just ideas not proven in praxis but something you should keep in mind.

I actually played a game against a VC army and the harpies were just awesome against him! They were flying all over the place march blocking, redirecting and fleeing through my own lines just to rally within 12" of my general. Also hatred on our shooting troops like RXB warriors made them very resilient against giant bats. 5 GBs charge my 10 warriors and they cut them to pieces over 2 rounds of combat!

[Cougar_roger]

I thought hatred was only on HTH combat, and it didn't cover shooting?

[Matras]

I guess he referred to the number of attacks he hit with in CC.

[Xerasi]

Well the range on dances is quite low, So if you stick the Cok's with the ring in the middle of combat, odd's are that they'll stop Vanhells attempts quite often. On top I'd love if my VC opponents started raising and then vanhellsing, as I could just save dices for the later. The problem is that they'll be vanhellsing a unit 4ish times until it goes through, usually leaving very few dices for raising. But then again, The one vanhells that would get through is a lot worse than 4ish raises.

And the bad side of hatred is easily negated with the harpies and DR. It'll be tough to counter if your opponent is a good warhammer player, whilst you are bad, but if you are medicore, you should be able to prevent most of the damage that'll be caused by overruning.

And depending on the army that you are fielding, it'll be redicules if you place the Ring to cover the enemies mages. It A) sevearly limits your targets for spells. B) allows your opponent to counter it by movement, and very easily if they have more than 1 mage. C) It's a lot easier to get rid of/counter a single char that needs to be played aggresively by shooting etc than it is with a unit that doesn't need to be put in the frontline.

So while you idea may have it's marits when playing without magic (or with just a caddy) it's pointless imho if you want to field anything more than 2 levels of magic.

Haplo can you give one example, where it will statistically be better to have a BG unit lined up 3 wide than 1 wide? I can't think of anything barring lone chars, a case that I see as highly unlikely.

Xerasi

[Grogsnotpowwabomba]

Not THE most powerful, Grogsnot, there are still VC's out there, and the ASF-Asur.

Mark my words. Our list is going to be stronger than Vampires and High Elves...

[Decker_cky]

I think against vamps, the trick will be to keep the ring near the main vamp himself, while having enough shooting around to be worrisome if he jumps out of a unit to avoid a march block. That will mean you likely have the ring near the unit he's wanting to charge with as well.

[Kensou]

I already see our list as stronger then High Elves

Edit: On a more serious note, a list is only as strong as it's user. The first time I played the new VC I won mostly because my opponent didn't really know how to use them (First time with new VC, Veteran with old). Also I think I fled from about 20 charges

[Decker_cky]

I'm not sure our list will be 'stronger' per say. I think it will be comparably strong to the recent lists, though much more versatile. From the looks of things, we'll have strong shooting, but not on the level that a true gunline will win games, strong magic, but limited by no miscast protection and additional risk from the boosts, and amazingly strong combat skills, but we still fold when charged (and at least contending for the strongest in the movement phase). So we're strong in each phase, but we don't have the 'over the top' peaks of our abilities that make VC and Daemons get declared the most powerful.

[Matras]

Yes, I think that is the best way to say it. The reason why DE players will be doing well with the new list (based on the rumours) is that we know how to handle ourselves (okay, those of us who really have experience and didn't have their Druchii gathering dust on their shelves...like me...*sigh*). In addition to that, it seems as if we are getting a book that, while not overpowered, offers a huge amount of versatility. One might say, difficult to master, but extremely dangerous in the right hands. Finally again. And this, indeed, would be why we will get a lot more victories now.

[Dark Alliance]

Playing VCs

What the new list gives us is several things perfect for dealing with their list.

Magic - the use of the Ring of Hotek is limited against the one cast invospamfest granted. But as we are a highly mobile military force, there is a limit to how much use multiple castings of this are, compared to getting the Undead units in position. Also, when the VC player looks at the DEs and sees a strong magic phase coming back at him, he is likely to thionk about stronger casting values to get higher units. It happens.

We can get additional defence in the way of magic resistance and the usual supply of dispel dice, which are normally ok for self preservation I find anyway.

Offensive magic coming back at them is what they need to be more wary of though. Access to the additional lores of Fire and Metal increase our options of character/unit destruction and Bladewinds is just awesome against the character bunkers. i see VC players having 2 or more characters in the same unit all the time which is awesome for this spell. Exactly what you want them to do.

And don't forget that Black Horror no longer requires los. I used 2 castings of this spell, backed up with some RBT action to reduce a unit of Grave Guard down to 2 figures in a game last week!

Hydra's teeth are another great magic attack item which is perfect for character assassination as well as dealing with Cairn Wraiths.

Shooting - has the added bonus of armour piercing which gives those vital extra kills against GG and BKs. Lifetaker - perfect for wraiths. s7 Assassin - perfect for the Black Coach and the Vargulf.

Combat - this is the area that I love the most. Frenzied Corsairs led by Lokhir. Witch Elves. Black Guard. All great units with multiple attacks which are not affected by the fear bonus of the VC army. I deploy mine 7 wide, 3 deep and have full command groups. If there is a cauldron in the army it's even more attacks!

The reduced troop costs have meant that we can get these massed attack units onto the table with sufficient static combat res as well as support in other areas to make them work effectively.

This tends to be where the ring gets a second lease of life as the VC player gets desperate to secure his counter charges, and thus tends to put more dice into his casting.

We have a great list.

[Silverheimdall]

I don't get the S7 Assassin thing, how do you reach that if they can't take Magical Items? And of course, what good is S7 against a Varghulf? sure you wound it on a 2+ but its regen will screw your T3 saveless models.

[Aspiring executioner]

you get it by manbane and rending stars and the good thing of S7 is that you wound the varghulf on 2's...

[Lakissov]

@DA
Well, I'd say, BG are much better than corsairs and witches against VC. As I see it, they have become absolutely fantastic war of attrition specialists: not only do they hit hard with 2 S4 attacks each (better than 3 S3 attacks against tougher troops), but they also retein hatref in all combat rounds, and don't care about fear (which witches and corsairs do care about, as they lose frenzy immediately after losing a combat round). I would say, in every army where one wants some attrition capability, the best way to get it is to take 10-15 black guard, even naked, without any command.

[Haplo]

Haplo can you give one example, where it will statistically be better to have a BG unit lined up 3 wide than 1 wide? I can't think of anything barring lone chars, a case that I see as highly unlikely.
Xerasi

There are not, and that wasn't my case. My case was that a 3x3 formation is a lot more mobile and flexible than say a 1x9 formation. I'm not saying it's a formation you want to deploy in, but it could be usefull if you want to minimize incomming attacks and still max potential damage output and mobility if your opponent doesn't go for the charge(which he should probably not).

I haven't tried it out but it's a tool I will keep in my box.

In my game against VC I tried the ultimate BG unit with ASF banner, 20 models strong, BSB with AP banner and a COB to back it up. Nothing dared charge it to the front (he didn't bring a coach) and 20 strong ghoul blocks were loosing combat by 2 when trying to flank this unit! The friggin champion has 4 attacks when backed up by the COB!

I see demons as more of a problem, with a bloodthirster and flamers of tze as tough units to crack for our army!

[Entreri bloodletter]

So I was thinking of a possible tactic involving a high sorceress on either a dark steed or a pegasus with the Familiar. Normally she is vulnerable to missiles but now that harpies are core we can surround her with harpies and use the familiar to get LoS around the harpies.

So in effect no one has LoS to her but she has LoS to everyone else and will still cast as normal. Even a turn or two of being protected should be enough to neutralize the worst of the enemy shooting.

How does this sound?

[Mordru]

Loads and loads of good options with that focus familiar and with core flying skirmishers.

[Jankiel]

you get it by manbane and rending stars and the good thing of S7 is that you wound the varghulf on 2's...

I don't think it's 100% legal. Why you first count effect from manbane, and than add +1 strenght from rending stars?

Hydra's teeth are another great magic attack item which is perfect for character assassination

Hydras teeth and bladewind are wonderful against war machines - everything hits the crew. Hidden behind forest organ gun destroyed on the first turn by noble on pegasus - priceless. There will be a few problems with blade wind and hydras teeth. Does +1 AS for hand weapon+shield counts? Can all attacks be targetet at skink handlers, not salamanders? Can all be targetet at ungors?

[Lamekh]

Does +1 AS for hand weapon+shield counts? Can all attacks be targetet at skink handlers, not salamanders? Can all be targetet at ungors?

The +1 AS only works with mundane gear...

[Getwisteerd]

I think he was talking about units hit by bladewind/hydra's teeth. If they have hand weapon and shield, do they get the extra AS because it counts are CC attacks.

I would think yes, but before I have seen the book it's just guessing.

Hydras teeth and bladewind are wonderful against war machines - everything hits the crew

If you can't direct all attacks at a character within a unit I doubt this, but like I said before, before I've seen the exact wording of bladewind/hydra's teeth it's just guessing.

[Elfik]

Bladewind is useful against unit champs with only one wound yet may have nasty gear such as longrifles or ring of hotek. Also Bladewind should be great against flyers.

[Izirath]

Not THE most powerful, Grogsnot, there are still VC's out there, and the ASF-Asur.

Mark my words. Our list is going to be stronger than Vampires and High Elves...

I agree Gorg. I think it's incredibly lame to say that VC and Asur will be strongest still, we are going to become a competetive list. I played in a tournament this weekend. Two opponents got in massacres, the two others did Solid Victory and the last one I managed to pull a draw. Oh wow... I actually didn't come last, but still it was crazy. I don't think Asur and VC will dominate, it's paranoid bullshit. It's not overpowered at all, it's all been playtested, it's just people who exploit the game and cheese it, but we have to live with it. There is always something which can counter it, so use it.