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Bladewind and warmachine crews 
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Malekith's Best Friend
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This is a bit of a rule question, but also a tactics discussion based on what the outcome of the rule question is.

How does Bladewind work against warmachines? It doesn't say the attacks are allocated as shooting, but also doesn't say that you can specify who the attacks are directed against (besides the ability to allocate attacks versus characters and champions.) Are the hits randomized between machine and crew, as if with shooting? Or are the attacks directed against the crew, since you can't actually attack a warmachine in close and attack the crew instead?

Either way, I think it'll be amazing versus warmachine crews. S4 can do effective damage to warmachines, and can effectively threaten the crews as well. If you can indeed allocate the attacks against the crew, then this spell has some incredibly applications...

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:06 am
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To me it's simple
You can't attack war machines in CC while the crew is alive
Bladewind does CC attacks
Bladewind can't damage machines while the crew is alive.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:22 am
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The 3d6 attacks at WS4 sounds better than it actually works out to be. Against WS4 T3 you can easily end up with 8-10 attacks that hit on a 4+ so roughly around 4-5 hits and then you need 3s to wound. This is great against the war machine crews and also against light units skirmishers and fast cav, etc... and not so useful against anything T4 or well armoured.

edited: after I bothered to get out the BRB and look into the issue.

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Last edited by Mordru on Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:25 am
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It's harder when you cast it on a target like salamanders (I think it's only salamanders actually <.<) where you can choose your target in CC depending on who you're in contact with... I'd say you can choose freely to for example allocate everything on skinks... but that sounds a bit cheesy

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:39 am
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It may be more sporting to allocate attacks against salamander units so that each element receives some attacks.

How about against other dark elves? If you cast blade wind on a hydra the hydra rules state that all cc attacks that can be allocated agains the hydra must be so allocated but the spell doesn't result in any models being in contact with anyone. I would suggest that the attacks must go solely against the hydra but the issue is there.

Maybe I should post this to the FAQ thread.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:44 am
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Well for hydra the bestmasters can be attacked only if they are the only possible target of the attack... and if bladewind can choose like CC attacks then all goes into hydra.

Burning head will be deadly against our hydrae, watch for it.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:46 am
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Just randomize the hits and save a load of headache and bickering. Remember the most important rule! Hydra handlers cannot be targered by spells. They can only be killed by pursuing, cannonballs or spells like flames of the phoenix which target every model in the unit or with templates.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:46 am
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The most important rule encompasses playing the written rules in the rule book. Not replacing them with a d6 roll for it.

The hydra rules state that all hits that "would normally be randomized" all hit the hydra. Close combat attacks are not normally randomized at all. The hydra rules further require that all close combat attacks that can attack the hydra must attack the hydra. Normally the handlers cannot be attacked unless attacking the hydra is not an option.

Bladewind states that one attack may be allocated against each character or champion in the target unit.

Neither of these rules suggest that you simply randomize against the unit. The answer seems to be that all the bladewind attacks should go against the hydra but the implication is there in the bladewinde spell that at least one attack could be allocated against each handler. There is no support in the rules that I see for the "solution" of randomizing hits.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:38 pm
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Handlers are not characters nor champions. Hence all the hits should go to the hydra


Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:48 pm
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riker666 wrote:
Handlers are not characters nor champions. Hence all the hits should go to the hydra


<agree>

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:31 pm
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The initial premise of this thread is false aswell.

Quote the page number that you make the assumption that the machine can't be attacked on anyway.

The rules for Warmachines (p.86, BRB) state clearly that the machine can be attacked in close combat (even stating that all attacks hit automatically).

Even with hits being randomised Bladewind is still extremely efficient at removing War Machines. In the games I've used it against War Machines I've frequently gibbed war machines whilst leaving crews untouched as 3 6's on the wound rolls against the war machine aren't exactly unheard of.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:35 pm
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Hmm that would be cool if you directed all of your attacks against the warmachine. As they will autohit? GW give us a FAQ please!

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:01 pm
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izirath wrote:
Hmm that would be cool if you directed all of your attacks against the warmachine. As they will autohit? GW give us a FAQ please!


Attacks against War Machines autohit as outlined on p.86 of the BRB. So Bladewind is useful for obliterating the machine itself.

And so long as either the Crew or Machine as disabled you gain the victory points for it.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:08 pm
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You cant normally attack a war machine in melee anyway, as the crew interpose themselves so I would go with the hitting crew only. Randomising hits are rules in the shooting rules, not close combat, so you definitely shouldnt randomise. You can if you want to of course.

Against units like Salamnders its a lot harder to call... Certainly the casting player gets to choose so they could technically assign everything on just the type they want, though of course you cant target specific individuals beyond the 1 attack.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:42 pm
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WarpGhost wrote:
You cant normally attack a war machine in melee anyway, as the crew interpose themselves so I would go with the hitting crew only. Randomising hits are rules in the shooting rules, not close combat, so you definitely shouldnt randomise. You can if you want to of course.

Against units like Salamnders its a lot harder to call... Certainly the casting player gets to choose so they could technically assign everything on just the type they want, though of course you cant target specific individuals beyond the 1 attack.



Yes, you can. You can't normally allocate your hits against a war machine in melee purely because you are not physically in base-to-base contact with the war machine (due to the 'counter-charge' by the crew operating the machine). There are no rules stating that a war machine cannot be attacked in close combat. In fact there are explicit rules detailing how you resolve close combat attacks directed against the war machine.

Read the BRB - it answers so many questions.

Just as if a War Machine was already engaged to its "front" and then was charged in the rear - the second attacker does not ignore the war machine to hit the crew engaged on the other side of it, but instead hit the machine itself. Just because it is a rare situation does not automatically mean it never happens. Rules > Assumptions.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:00 pm
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Quote:
Yes, you can. You can't normally allocate your hits against a war machine in melee purely because you are not physically in base-to-base contact with the war machine (due to the 'counter-charge' by the crew operating the machine). There are no rules stating that a war machine cannot be attacked in close combat. In fact there are explicit rules detailing how you resolve close combat attacks directed against the war machine.

Read the BRB - it answers so many questions.
Actually, I am reading the rulebook; and the crew do indeed stop the war machine getting attacked normally. Im well aware that the rules do allow for it to happen in the rare instances where it does get attacked. Bladewind simply makes no special allowances for randomising hits in combat, which only happens in shooting and impact hits of which it is neither, something youd know if you read the rules.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:20 pm
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WarpGhost wrote:
Quote:
Yes, you can. You can't normally allocate your hits against a war machine in melee purely because you are not physically in base-to-base contact with the war machine (due to the 'counter-charge' by the crew operating the machine). There are no rules stating that a war machine cannot be attacked in close combat. In fact there are explicit rules detailing how you resolve close combat attacks directed against the war machine.

Read the BRB - it answers so many questions.
Actually, I am reading the rulebook; and the crew do indeed stop the war machine getting attacked normally. Im well aware that the rules do allow for it to happen in the rare instances where it does get attacked. Bladewind simply makes no special allowances for randomising hits in combat, which only happens in shooting and impact hits of which it is neither, something youd know if you read the rules.


Quote the page and passage then. I have my copy of the BRB open at the moment and nowhere does it say "A War Machine cannot be engaged in Close Combat so long as the crew survive".

Whilst in effect this is the case, as the crew move to intercept when a charge is declared, this has absolutely no bearing on the rules concerning Bladewind as there is no charge move, and no reaction from the crew. Close Combat attacks != Close Combat phase.

If you really want to argue the "There's no randomising rule listed" then why not allocate each hit equally on each model? So for a machine with 3 crew it would be allocated 1 on each crew and 1 on the machine, then lap round again until all the attacks are allocated?

There are rules for attacking machines, and there are (ofcourse) rules for attacking the crew. Just because there is no rule saying "randomise" doesn't mean you instantly jump to the conclusion that all hits are placed on the crew - why not on the machine? There's no rule regarding machines saying that hits go on the crew instead.

As the only specifics for being allowed to target attacks are made for characters and champions in the spells description, why do you think you get to target all the attacks on the crew with no backing from the rules? Seriously, stop being so snide when you refuse to actually reference the rules.

Until the FAQ gets answered there's 3 possible ways to play it:

1) Do as you people wish, and just allocate all attacks on the crew (with no basis in the rules).

2) Allocate each hit 1-for-1 on each model in the war machine unit

3) Randomise. Whilst they are close combat attacks, it is also still a ranged spell, so whilst there are no exact word-for-word rulings on the matter currently (it being a brand new mechanic and all) a little common sense goes a long way.

Even randomised it is still an extremely potent war machine killer.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:44 pm
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I have both the BRB and the new army book in front of me.

- BRB P.110, 2nd paragraph, if a spell is described as inflicting several hits or wounds to a target, they should be distribuited like missiles, unles the contrary is specified.

- AB: Bladewind inflicts 3D6 HtH attacks. One of the attacks can be allocated to each character and champion.

So, nothing states that the attacks are allocated as HtH attacks, they are just HtH attacks brought by magic. So the general allocation should follow shooting rules, with the exception of allocation of one attack to each character and champion.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:44 pm
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They are close combat attacks and as thus you allocate them to the Crew and not the machine.
Nothing states that they are allocated as HtH but they also don't make ANY mention of "distributed as shooting" like oh so many Giant attacks and some magic items.

For the Hydra - the Beastmaster's rules protects them as the rule states "when you have the choice, you must attack the Hydra" - so every attack goes unto the Hydra.


Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:24 am
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SilverHeimdall wrote:
They are close combat attacks and as thus you allocate them to the Crew and not the machine.


Do you want to back up that baseless assertion? So what if they are close combat attacks, why does that mean they hit the crew and not the machine. Machines can be attacked in close combat - the BRB explicitly states as such.

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Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:26 am
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'baseless assertion' because there is nothing in the spell that says the close combats are distribute as per the shooting rules - even the Giant has a rule that says, for certain attacks, that they are distributed like shooting attacks - if its not written, then what is stopping you from deciding where the attacks go (except for the '1 attack' maximum on a champion/character).

You aim your attacks at the Warmachine if you want but its T7. (I'm ignoring the Daemon cannon and other such weird war machines)
So just allocate the attacks on the crew, nothing in the spell forbids you from throwing all the attacks on the crew and none on the warmachine! Its not a magic missile or anything like that, its a weird new type of spell.


Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:15 am
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Quote:
- BRB P.110, 2nd paragraph, if a spell is described as inflicting several hits or wounds to a target, they should be distribuited like missiles, unles the contrary is specified.

But it isn't hits or wounds, it's close combat attacks. Milney I see what you're saying, but I think the implication is clearly there that the attacks csn all be allocated vs. the crew. I wouldn't be surprised if the FAQ ends up saying they must be allocated vs. the crew. And don't say this isn't "common sense" because it is. Skirmishers are getting hit by bladewind even when in the outer 2 inches of a wood, so why would bladewind have trouble hitting warmachine crew trying to hide behind a warmachine?

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Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:01 am
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Ok. I'm willing to accept that they're not all allocated on the crew but then how are they allocated? Do you just devide them as shooting or do you treat each crew member and the warmachine as one model each and try to allocated an even number of attacks?


Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:20 am
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Scallat wrote:
Ok. I'm willing to accept that they're not all allocated on the crew but then how are they allocated? Do you just devide them as shooting or do you treat each crew member and the warmachine as one model each and try to allocated an even number of attacks?


Now *that* is the question.

The answer is - there currently is no answer. Unfortunately for the RAW sticklers amongst us;

-Close Combat attacks are allocated on a model-to-model basis judged by base contact. Clearly there is no base-to-base contact here which makes that problematic.

-Shooting and Magic hits are randomised as normal, but according to the RAW interpretation of the rules only "hits" and "wounds" are randomised from spells (as the mechanic of ranged close combat attacks hadn't even been thought of one and a half years ago).

It needs an FAQ, but I would agrue that although RAW has no answer, the quoted pages of the BRB (p.110 afaik) which states that magical attacks are randomised as shooting unless otherwise specified gives us a good base for common sense and "spirit of the rules" interpretation.

Plus with 3D6 attacks (and attacks on War Machines hitting automatically) it is still one of the best (if not the best) anti-war machine spells in the game.

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Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:57 am
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Since the spell says that you can allocate only 1 of those hits on the champion or the characters in the unit. You can choose to allocate the hits where you want.

For the base to base, it's because a model far from the model has a restriction and it's his base, while the spell target the unit.


Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:12 pm
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