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How long to get the hang of playing DE? 
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Shade
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I just had my first game of WFB using 1000 points of DE against Goblins. I got defeated late in the game due to a number of mistakes, but I'm feeling a little downcast.

Mistakes included:
- Orc Warboss challenged my Master, and I chose a great weapon. Master got wasted in 2 turns without making much of an impression. Next time, I think I should use something that doesn't waste high Initiative.
- I accidentally tripped off 6 Fanatics by having my Shades and Dark Riders in range. I lucked out when the Fanatics moved away from them or slammed into their own units, but I had no real way of dealing with them outside of the Fanatics killing themselves in whatever way.
- Failed charge with Black Guard against Night Goblins. They charged first instead, and got nailed hard by ASF halberds and a Dark Rider flank charge. They held using the Warboss's Ld, and the Black Guard ended up getting rear charged by a Giant and another Night Goblin unit, and then that combat got repeatedly slammed by Fanatics.
- Rolled Soul Stealer and Black Horror for spells on my Sorceress, but didn't swap one out for Chillwind. Ended up not getting anything off, and miscast near the end trying to cast Power of Darkness and copped a S8 hit and lost a level.
- Shades used Scout deployment in a forest but the Giant was nearby, so they couldn't do much there, and kinda forgot they were still in the forest.
- Charged Spider Riders with Warriors using spears, only to find that they don't get the extra rank in the first round if they charge. Ended up being badly mauled by the Spiders and the loss of my General. Failed Panic and got run down.

How long did it take you guys to start being at least mostly competent with the game?

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Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:24 am
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Did you have any shooting in your list?

Mostly it sounds like bad timing and poor co-ordination opn your part rather than anything specific. I would guess more shooting will help and more attention to your magic phase.

Other than that can't say much without an idea of your army list and ythat of your opponent.

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Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:54 am
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Roleplaying Deity
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I always want a couple of low casting level spells rolled, like chillwind or doombolt, so if i only roll the ones at the opposite end of the table i tend to swap out for chillwind. Also, nobody can help fanatics since there is no real way to kill them unless they kill themself like you mentioned.

I think your downfall was bad positioning and judgement (such as the charge you failed) and how on earth did you let a fanatic unit and giant get behind your black guard? An elite army like the druchii takes a long time to get fully used to, but after perhaps a few months to a year (depending on how often you play) you should know the ropes and most little things.


Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:12 am
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If you play other army’s have a practice game against yourself because you can take as long as you want on the turns and discover all the little tricks and what works well with what, it’s also helpful in improving your inch guessing. It’s not as good as a real game but it is helpful.

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Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:43 am
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Despite the new book making many stuff stronger than last edition, they're still an unforgiving army which punishes mistakes quickly. However, most people improve in their ability to use their army fairly quickly, some quicker than others, and as luck would have it this forum has quite a few of such people.

Quote:
- Orc Warboss challenged my Master, and I chose a great weapon. Master got wasted in 2 turns without making much of an impression. Next time, I think I should use something that doesn't waste high Initiative.

Ah yes, ze challenge. Where a fair one-on-one combat is fought to the death.

Thing is, Dark Elves don't like fair. Remember that you're not bound by honour to fight his general with yours and your Master will be happier killing rank and file troopers unless he has equipment to let him win those challenges (Pendant of Khaeleth, Armour of Eternal Servitude, Web of Shadows combined with the Cauldron of Blood's killing blow etc). To avoid challenges you can include a unit champion in your general's unit to answer it and although he'll most likely get killed, your general can do his thing against everyone around him.

Quote:
- I accidentally tripped off 6 Fanatics by having my Shades and Dark Riders in range. I lucked out when the Fanatics moved away from them or slammed into their own units, but I had no real way of dealing with them outside of the Fanatics killing themselves in whatever way.

The only ways of dealing with Fanatics, other than relying on his dice, are moving over them or shooting/magkicing at them.

Shooting or casting spells will mostly feel like a bit of a waste (although chillwind might've helped here) but at least you're taking the initiative rather than placing your hope in your opponent's dice, and is always more preferable to take 2D6 S5 hits becauseof his death throes. To trigger them, I advise the use of Harpies (cheap, core flyers - perfect, or as close to at least) or if you don't have them, Shades may do the trick as well. The advantage of such units, other than not costing a great deal of points, is that you can try to get behind his Night Goblins and as such make his choice of where to release the Fanatics just a little bit harder.
Quote:
- Failed charge with Black Guard against Night Goblins. They charged first instead, and got nailed hard by ASF halberds and a Dark Rider flank charge. They held using the Warboss's Ld, and the Black Guard ended up getting rear charged by a Giant and another Night Goblin unit, and then that combat got repeatedly slammed by Fanatics.

The fact that they held was probably good luck seeing as they'd need double 1s from what I gather. As for the future, the Giant is always good target practice - you may need 6s to wound him with repeater crossbows, but seeing as you shoot twice with each model and get +1 to hit on top of that you should be able to bring it down, much more so if you include Reaper Bolt Throwers.

Quote:
- Rolled Soul Stealer and Black Horror for spells on my Sorceress, but didn't swap one out for Chillwind. Ended up not getting anything off, and miscast near the end trying to cast Power of Darkness and copped a S8 hit and lost a level.

Not much to tell you here, there's not much you can do to prevent a miscast. Both the Soul Stealer and Black Horror spells are nice to use against massed goblin ranks, with either being likely to cause panic tests. However, since they're so identical in that respect you may have gone for just one of those.

Quote:
- Shades used Scout deployment in a forest but the Giant was nearby, so they couldn't do much there, and kinda forgot they were still in the forest.
Actually, exposing yourself to the Giant wouldn't have been such a bad idea - him charging would mean he'd get stuck in the forest. An amplifying effect would be if you'd be able to get a unit to marchblock him.

Overall it's a pity you forgot about them though, their high Ballistic Skill shots could've meant a couple of wounds on the giant.

Quote:
- Charged Spider Riders with Warriors using spears, only to find that they don't get the extra rank in the first round if they charge. Ended up being badly mauled by the Spiders and the loss of my General. Failed Panic and got run down.

From the sound of it, you had bad luck here - unless he had a large unit he shouldn't have outnumbered you by 2:1 and thus take a fear test. You then proceeded to wound very little even with hatred attacks, he was lucky to both hit and wound you more often and you failed 4+ armour saves enough to lose the combat.

I think it would help in general to post a battle report and your opponent's as well as your own list so maybe some of us may help analysing what you did right and what not more extensively.


Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:46 am
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Important thing to remember as playing a Druchii army (from what I learned over my years), is:

Never fight fair, never accept unfavourable charges/challenges, and if you don't have advantage - don't fight the opponent's fight.

It often boils down to a single thing - never be afraid to say "flee" as charge reaction. If your general on a dragon is getting flank charged by 5 blood knights with vampire lord, don't stand there and hope you can pick them one by one in challenges. Just flee and get them into a trap of your own.

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Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:46 pm
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Shade
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Lethalis wrote:
Thing is, Dark Elves don't like fair. Remember that you're not bound by honour to fight his general with yours and your Master will be happier killing rank and file troopers unless he has equipment to let him win those challenges (Pendant of Khaeleth, Armour of Eternal Servitude, Web of Shadows combined with the Cauldron of Blood's killing blow etc). To avoid challenges you can include a unit champion in your general's unit to answer it and although he'll most likely get killed, your general can do his thing against everyone around him.


I had a Lordling in the unit, and that idea never came to mind at all :P

Quote:
The fact that they held was probably good luck seeing as they'd need double 1s from what I gather. As for the future, the Giant is always good target practice - you may need 6s to wound him with repeater crossbows, but seeing as you shoot twice with each model and get +1 to hit on top of that you should be able to bring it down, much more so if you include Reaper Bolt Throwers.


Yeah, it was a bit of a freak roll with that combat. I did try to shoot the Giant a few times, but wasn't quite a focused effort.

Quote:
- Charged Spider Riders with Warriors using spears, only to find that they don't get the extra rank in the first round if they charge. Ended up being badly mauled by the Spiders and the loss of my General. Failed Panic and got run down.


From the sound of it, you had bad luck here - unless he had a large unit he shouldn't have outnumbered you by 2:1 and thus take a fear test. You then proceeded to wound very little even with hatred attacks, he was lucky to both hit and wound you more often and you failed 4+ armour saves enough to lose the combat.

- We both completely forgot that Goblins fear Elves. Worse yet, I was already aware of that rule myself, and during the game, I forgot it.

- I had used spears in the first round of combat, and thought that I had to use those for the entire encounter. Hence, I treated my armour as 5+ the entire way through.

Quote:
I think it would help in general to post a battle report and your opponent's as well as your own list so maybe some of us may help analysing what you did right and what not more extensively.


This was a game at GW, and I can't provide my opponent's list because the original was on a little piece of paper, and it appears this kid couldn't add up properly because a redshirt had to rejig the list to make it add up correctly.

However, I can provide you with my own list:

Master - 105 points
- Soulrender
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- Sea Dragon Cloak

Sorceress - 160 points
- Upgrade to Level 2
- Dispel Scroll

20 Dark Elf Warriors - 155 points
- Lordling
- Musician
- Standard Bearer
- Shields

5 Dark Riders - 117 points
- Musician
- Repeater crossbows

15 Black Guard of Naggarond - 265 points
- Tower Master
- Musician
- Standard Bearer
- Standard of Hag Graef

5 Shades - 90 points
- Great weapons

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100 points

TOTAL = 992 points

I'm aware that the Black Guard chew up practically 25% of the total points, but the list is designed to be further expanded in the future.

I didn't have much clue how to best equip the Master, so I went with something a little generic, and as I mentioned earlier, that didn't work too well in a challenge.

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Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:06 pm
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For me it was the realization that for most cases you aren't going to win going strait at someone especially O&G's. The beauty of DE is their speed and maneuverability. DE still amaze me by how fast we fly around the board. Flank charges and canceling rank bonus' is allways been the way to victory for me. Yea sometimes you have a good stand up fight which is glorious, (Think witch elves vs human w/o shields) but they are few and far between. When I look a battlefield I am asking myself, which flank to turn or both? These lads are so fast it baffles your enemy as the were you are going to be. To this end, Never leave home w/o Dark Riders and one other zippy unit to support them (or vice versa) like shades, harpies, hero on pegasus (I prefer this to the manticore for this role as not a large target).

Also, it has been my experience that my DE either win big or lose big (Though this may be a function of my opponent races) But when they click its a glorious thing, but one or two bad rolls and things can deteriorate quickly.

MC


Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:19 pm
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thran wrote:
I just had my first game of WFB using 1000 points of DE against Goblins. I got defeated late in the game due to a number of mistakes, but I'm feeling a little downcast.

Don't worry... we all lose battles every now and then, geniuses though we all may be ;) And you learn more from mistakes (which is due to the fact that we tend to accept good luck as it is and only question bad luck).
Quote:
Mistakes included:
- Orc Warboss challenged my Master, and I chose a great weapon. Master got wasted in 2 turns without making much of an impression. Next time, I think I should use something that doesn't waste high Initiative.

"Fighty" orc heroes are second to only very few other "fighty" characters because fighting is all they can do - DE heroes have high leadership and ballistic skill and so forth - orcs don't. All they can do is chop you apart in hand to hand. The only way to get around this is to make sure you chop them up before they get you - and as you have correctly concluded, the only way to do that is to make sure you strike first. The best way to get rid of Orcs is to use either a weapon which ignores armor saves (though this weapon is not going to give you attack or strength bonuses) or to use killing blow (because the best ware save orcs can get is, I believe, a 5+ ward save).
Quote:
- I accidentally tripped off 6 Fanatics by having my Shades and Dark Riders in range. I lucked out when the Fanatics moved away from them or slammed into their own units, but I had no real way of dealing with them outside of the Fanatics killing themselves in whatever way.

Fanatics are best avoided at all costs... normally I take the first chance I get to line a unit of 5 harpies up in front of as many regiments which potentially have fanatics in them as possible. Then I sit back and enjoy the show... Just make sure you can take advantage of the fact that there is a bunch of fanatics holding the orcs up and shoot the army up while they're waiting for the fanatics to get out of the way.
Quote:
- Failed charge with Black Guard against Night Goblins. They charged first instead, and got nailed hard by ASF halberds and a Dark Rider flank charge. They held using the Warboss's Ld, and the Black Guard ended up getting rear charged by a Giant and another Night Goblin unit, and then that combat got repeatedly slammed by Fanatics.

Never charge with a unit that has ASF (unless your entire army has ASF, that is) - ASF is a purely defensive ability and is of no use when you charge. When you're not desperately have to get a charge in to be effective, you can take advantage of the fact that your opponent really does want to charge (and hence cannot be very selective as to when and where the charge takes place). You can decide where you are charged because you can control where your unit moves, and that is your strength (and what annoys me about high elves...).
Quote:
- Rolled Soul Stealer and Black Horror for spells on my Sorceress, but didn't swap one out for Chillwind. Ended up not getting anything off, and miscast near the end trying to cast Power of Darkness and copped a S8 hit and lost a level.

Magic is very tough to use at first because it requires an awful lot of practise to avoid it backfiring (in whichever way). I'd suggest you try to learn about the other phase of the game first and only concentrate on magical defence before you try offensive magic. I lost many a game to the fact that I did not know how to properly use magic, though I started to appreciate it's power after I learned how to use it, but I only learned that after I had learned how to take advantage of the other phases of the game.
Quote:
- Shades used Scout deployment in a forest but the Giant was nearby, so they couldn't do much there, and kinda forgot they were still in the forest.

Never forget about your models because they are hidden... you'll hate yourself for it after the battle :D
They could have done an awful lot of damage to the Giant. Firstly they would have stopped it from marching and secondly they could have taken a few wounds off, making it easier to deal with later on in the battle.
Quote:
- Charged Spider Riders with Warriors using spears, only to find that they don't get the extra rank in the first round if they charge. Ended up being badly mauled by the Spiders and the loss of my General. Failed Panic and got run down.

This is not so much a mistake as it is bad luck... And as pointed out before - were those spider riders strong enough not to fear you? and even if they were, they usually would not have been able to take you down so easily.
Quote:
How long did it take you guys to start being at least mostly competent with the game?

Ages... I've been playing for 7 years (and counting) and I still learn with every battle I fight... Druchii are the most enjoyable army to use because there always are new things you discover...
What I can tell you is that the better you know the rules, the better you are at playing. Just keep reading the rulebook until you dream about the rules nonstop... believe me, its worth it (even though the dreams are annoying).
Dalamar wrote:
It often boils down to a single thing - never be afraid to say "flee" as charge reaction.

To an extent this is true, but at some point constantly fleeing starts to be annoying... almost every battle is decided in bloody slaughter... face to face with the enemy is where the fate of races is determined. Half the fun of playing is to see your units butcher the enemy in close combat. I think I would change Dalamar's suggestion into:
Avoid getting into situations where you have to flee, unless you purposefully set up a unit somewhere in order for it to flee because it is part of your battle plan. Fleeing as a result of poor deployment is no good and it will not help you in the slightest. If you have made a mistake, make sure it is painful (for you) so you don't make it again. Don't flee as a charge reaction because you got yourself into a bad situation because then fleeing ain't gonna help. Only flee when you have planned to flee with that unit long before you moved it into the position from where it has to flee.

And lastly:

Accept a challenge even if you know that you are most likely to lose. Never start a game off feeling already defeated, if you lose, then lose with dignity. Let your light go out with a bang. There is a difference between letting your opponent win and making your opponent win.

HUZZAH!

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Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:24 pm
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thran wrote:
Lethalis wrote:
Thing is, Dark Elves don't like fair. Remember that you're not bound by honour to fight his general with yours and your Master will be happier killing rank and file troopers unless he has equipment to let him win those challenges (Pendant of Khaeleth, Armour of Eternal Servitude, Web of Shadows combined with the Cauldron of Blood's killing blow etc). To avoid challenges you can include a unit champion in your general's unit to answer it and although he'll most likely get killed, your general can do his thing against everyone around him.


I had a Lordling in the unit, and that idea never came to mind at all :P

Well that's one thing to remember in the future then ;)

Quote:
Quote:
The fact that they held was probably good luck seeing as they'd need double 1s from what I gather. As for the future, the Giant is always good target practice - you may need 6s to wound him with repeater crossbows, but seeing as you shoot twice with each model and get +1 to hit on top of that you should be able to bring it down, much more so if you include Reaper Bolt Throwers.


Yeah, it was a bit of a freak roll with that combat. I did try to shoot the Giant a few times, but wasn't quite a focused effort.

Another pointer then; that Giant is worth about 20% of his points. You're not going to get extra points from it when you defeat it in close combat so you might as well shoot the bugger. With a large chunk of his points gone, as well as the probability of it falling over and hitting an enemy unit this is almost always worth the effort.

Against other opponents it's always worth to analyse their army a bit and see what targets need to be shot up. It may not always be the unit which happens to be the closest to you.

Quote:
Quote:
- Charged Spider Riders with Warriors using spears, only to find that they don't get the extra rank in the first round if they charge. Ended up being badly mauled by the Spiders and the loss of my General. Failed Panic and got run down.


From the sound of it, you had bad luck here - unless he had a large unit he shouldn't have outnumbered you by 2:1 and thus take a fear test. You then proceeded to wound very little even with hatred attacks, he was lucky to both hit and wound you more often and you failed 4+ armour saves enough to lose the combat.

- We both completely forgot that Goblins fear Elves. Worse yet, I was already aware of that rule myself, and during the game, I forgot it.

- I had used spears in the first round of combat, and thought that I had to use those for the entire encounter. Hence, I treated my armour as 5+ the entire way through.

Yes, once you have chosen a weapon combination you cannot change as long as the unit is locked in that combat. As an aside, since the other guy was playing greenskins he should've known and told you but considering he needed help from a GW employee, I'm not sure if the guy was 100%. Still, now that you know it's worth remembering.

Quote:
This was a game at GW, and I can't provide my opponent's list because the original was on a little piece of paper, and it appears this kid couldn't add up properly because a redshirt had to rejig the list to make it add up correctly.

However, I can provide you with my own list:

Master - 105 points
- Soulrender
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- Sea Dragon Cloak

Sorceress - 160 points
- Upgrade to Level 2
- Dispel Scroll

20 Dark Elf Warriors - 155 points
- Lordling
- Musician
- Standard Bearer
- Shields

5 Dark Riders - 117 points
- Musician
- Repeater crossbows

15 Black Guard of Naggarond - 265 points
- Tower Master
- Musician
- Standard Bearer
- Standard of Hag Graef

5 Shades - 90 points
- Great weapons

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100 points

TOTAL = 992 points

I'm aware that the Black Guard chew up practically 25% of the total points, but the list is designed to be further expanded in the future.

I didn't have much clue how to best equip the Master, so I went with something a little generic, and as I mentioned earlier, that didn't work too well in a challenge.
Not that bad a list, although I usually pick only a single character in anything under 1250 points as they take up so many points and Dark Elves are still Elves and therefore relatively expensive. With the points from either character you could get a second Bolt Thrower, some Harpies too if you decide to scratch the sorceress, or another infantry unit (corsairs, witches spring to mind, especially against greenskins), all of which are generally more effective on the field in games this size than the extra character. It depends on how you like to play though.


Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:29 pm
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How long did it take me to get the hang of playing with the Druchii? Ooh let me see... about 8 and half years?! (and counting ;)). Theyre a tricky bunch to be fair!

Hard luck on having such a crashcourse in the weaknesses of the druchii for your first game - I know you may feel a little downcast but by reading these excellent points from Lethalis and Anderson (leaving me little else to add!) I hope you should'nt feel quite so put off. In 6th Edition the Dark Elves were without a doubt the most difficult warhammer army to get to grips and had a reputation for this! Now that we have a 7th Edition book a lot has changed - many of the gripes and troubles we once had have been remade to give us a very powerful army. As has been said before though - we are still elves: our numbers are few and we have little in the way of armour - this means we are quickly and easily punished if we let our opponents take advantage of these weaknesses: shooting and magic being the most obvious ways to take the dark elves down.

I like cman's suggestion about testing out the army - either by yourself (Ive not tried this myself but can easily see that it would help you get to grips at your own pace) or in a really friendly game against a mate who doesnt mind taking the time to help you.

The other fellas have some other excellent points to add: Dalamar particularly. We are not High Elves or Brettonians. We don't have a sense of purity or being just and nor do we have honour: we fight dirty and use every trick up our sleeves! We leave our opponents guessing: clueless to our next devastating ploy! You have to think like this, plan armies around specific devastating tactics (this sounds like quite a deal but what I mean is to dominate areas of the game - such movement, magic or shooting over your opponent). In games of 1000pts take a hydra! Your O&G player had no qualms about using a Giant - Hydras are able to take down Giants! (and breath large fiery templates of S5 death all over large regiments like Goblins). Equally you're able to field a Manticore - a S and T5, flying, killing blow dealing monster of death! Not only this but strategically it can threaten flanks or rears very easily, hits hard (and keeps hitting hard) and can negate ranks because of its unit strength of 5.
Take an army with 4 units of Dark Riders all with Repeater Crossbows - set up feigned flight manouvres (position some DRs close to an enemy unit with a 2nd unit in charge range of where the enemy will end up if they fail the charge, flee with the 1st DRs, and then slam their flanks with the 2nd unit as your 1st unit of DRs rally next turn thanks to the musician you bought them!).
As Lethalis says - Harpies are an excellent antidote to the Fanatic problem: If you get the first turn the fly your little naked beauties 20" straight at the Nightgoblins who before they even start moving will be forced to release the fanatics in amongst their own ranks. If the O&Gs get the first turn - only walk your army forward a little (in preparation for when the chain and ball wielding maniacs are released - you don't want to be near them! ;)) whilst again flying the 1 harpy unit straight at the Nightgoblins: ok the enemy will be a little bit closer to you but again they'll have fanatics in their midst: add some shades (who'll be safe from fanatic attacks because they die if they touch terrain) and pour fire into the greenskin horde as they tiptoe through the minefield of whirling fanatics!

Seriously dude, the Druchii offer potential that (for me anyway) no other army can - we are excellent at every phase, you just have to play nasty to make sure youre opponent knows this!

Good luck and let us know how it goes - like the guys say: writing battlereports or army lists is an excellent way to get feedback - any specific army related question - trying searching to see if its been discussed or add a new topic in the druchii discussion if it has'nt.

- Beanz


Think in these ways

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Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:11 pm
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Hi Thran.

As you probably already have a sense of a lot of people is trying to cheer you up. Including me.

I took notice of your time spent on this forum. My guess is that you are either: A. an experienced 40k player 2. An experienced painter. Maybe both?

So my humble suggestions towards being a new Fantasy gamer are supposed to be seen precisely in that light I consider you having some sort of experiences with the hobby.

As for now I think you've already have received some good and qualified answers. I have only a few more.

For a start. It took me about 3 years... or 40-50 games... to get hold of the main rules. Meaning to be able to sort of use the rules -not just remembering them, if you know what I mean.

I'd learned a lot through sites like this one and through articles in magazines, but my premier experience came and still comes from playing a lot.

Some of my crucially learning points have been these:

Talk to yourself through the phase. Speak out the words: "Moving"...Start your turn by saing "Declare Charges!"...Do that and then say: "Rally fleeing troops". Take your time and go through your entire army. Fixing every unit...also that remote Harpy unit and hidden unit of Shades in the small wood by your opponents Cola. There is no shame in doing this or even bring a piece of paper as a mind jogger with the Turn written down. Yes, it may deem you as an in-experienced player, but so would forgetting a game winning charge or (speaking straight out of my own bunch of mistakes, trust me!) forget a magic phase! Forgetting has been a vital factor for me losing more than i should. Sometime it still is.

Maybe you don't have just as bad memory as me? Haha...

In my former games in tend to play Warhammer like i would play a game of Fantasy Roleplay. The narrative context appealed to me a lot, so my genral very often met the other general being it an Orc or a Chaos Lord. Y'know, face to face. Of course I lost. I'm an elf with T3.
When i more or less abandoned this idea of approach towards the game a lot changed. And i started winning. it may seem harsh to some people or even boring. To me it was a huge change.
To me that's the point Dangerous Beans a.o. is pointing out. Choose your fights. Be tricky, cunning and merciless. Let the spirit of our dark race engulf you in this matter. We all like winning once in a while.

Try two games in a row. Your #2 game will be better I promise. Clear up your mistakes. Mine are often made in the deploying...

Think i turns. Ask yourself "Where will this unit be in the next turn..." "What magic will help me most getting off", "What happens if this killing machine of a unit DOESN'T break his line -are my flankers in position?" And so on.

About guessing ranges. Well, practice come to mind. Be a geek and carry your measure tape with you now and then. Fix two points on your breakfast table, guess and measure. Actually its great fun, but do pay attention to those people around you like friends and family... it might seem a little odd, haha.
A small trick: A piece of copy paper -A4- is exactly 12" long. We all very often have this kind of paper in our hands and therefor know the "feeling" of how long 12" is.

All the other tricks you invent yourself along the way. With the new book it may not be quite as hard as previously?
Please write again when you've discovered some of them...I'm most willing to learn a few in the future as well.


Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:14 pm
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Shade
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Hidaus Morbusa wrote:
I took notice of your time spent on this forum. My guess is that you are either: A. an experienced 40k player 2. An experienced painter. Maybe both?

Yes, I've been involved with 40K for a while now, but never got to play all that many games because of having to deal with money and life issues, and focused more on painting instead. It's funny that I'm in my 20's and fully employed, and it's only now that I've been able to pursue my hobby more freely than I could in my younger days.

As you may have noticed, I did try to start DE back in 2003 when I was in my last year of high school, but had to call it off because money ran out. The entire idea got shelved for years because of uni and finding work, but now that money is more easily available, and I've finished my formal education, I decided to try again with the new revamp this month.

Lethalis wrote:
Not that bad a list, although I usually pick only a single character in anything under 1250 points as they take up so many points and Dark Elves are still Elves and therefore relatively expensive. With the points from either character you could get a second Bolt Thrower, some Harpies too if you decide to scratch the sorceress, or another infantry unit (corsairs, witches spring to mind, especially against greenskins), all of which are generally more effective on the field in games this size than the extra character. It depends on how you like to play though.

Although there's a certain irony with the way Sorceresses are dressed (or not dressed), I feel exposed without a caster for even magic defence.

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Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:06 am
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Shade
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I got wasted again this evening. This time, it was Bretonnians.

Bretonnians had 3 lance formations of Knights of the Realm with a caster in one unit and a BSB in another (not sure if you can have a BSB in 1000 points), as well as 3 Pegasus Knights.

I deploy RBT to left on hill, with Warriors and Black Guard holding centre, Dark Riders on right flank and scout the Shades in the trees on right ahead of the Riders. Master is with the Warriors and Sorceress in the Black Guard

I take the first turn. I bring Dark Riders up to the front centre, and move my block units up. Fire RBT with single shot and misses. I also move Shades somewhat closer.

His turn, he charges Riders with Pegasus Knights. I choose to flee but flee right through the Warriors. They pass the Panic test, but the Riders are now behind the Warriors and in a rather bad spot.

Some snotty kid tries to be smart:

"Oooh the little horsies are fleeing ahahaha etc etc."

"You want to go to the other side (of the GW store) and say that? HUH?! HUH?!"

The little twerp wisely stays silent for the rest of the game. Kids should neither be seen nor heard.

He casts Mistress of the Marsh on my Shades, and attempted to Rain Lord my RBT, which I dispel.

Next I try to charge the Pegasus Knights with my Warriors. He flees and I fail the charge. I try to cast Power of Darkness to cast Doombolt, but with the help of some Chalice that can generate an extra dispel dice, he keeps dispelling it, which continues throughout the game. Likewise, I keep trying to get rid of Mistress of the Marsh for the entire game but kept failing.

As a result of the failed charge, he hits my Warriors with 2 Knight units, and another unit into the Black Guard. The Warriors and Master get wasted immediately and the Knights chase them down and over to the edge of the table.

My Black Guard held to the last, and did a fair bit of damage, eventually killing that unit and BSB with Shades and Dark Riders flanking. Unfortunately the Pegasus Knights flank my Dark Riders back and massacre them, and by the time the game ended, I only had a fleeing Sorceress about to be charged by Knights, a few Shades and the RBT about to get charged by Knights as well.

Yes, I was told not to let the Knights get the charge in, but was never told how.

Everyone knows to try and dispel Power of Darkness (cast using 2 dice), so with a Level 1 with 2 Scrolls, I couldn't do anything with 1 remaining dice, other than trying (unsuccessfully) to dispel Mistress of the Marsh. Magic isn't working too well for me. One Level 1 or 2 simply won't cut it.

I'm also surmising that 1000 points isn't enough for DE to start playing to fuller capacity.

I'm getting no really useful help in person, so I'm practically playing by trial and error. I'm not as disappointed as before, but there's nobody consistently able to teach me what works.

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Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:32 am
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Dark Illusionist
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Quote:
not sure if you can have a BSB in 1000 points


Poor Brettonians actually have to have one, even in 500 points. and another hero (which is why brettonians are literally impossible to play at 500 points because there are no points left for the mandatory 2 core choices.

Quote:
I'm also surmising that 1000 points isn't enough for DE to start playing to fuller capacity.


1k is by all means enough for DE. Try a list like this one and you'll be surprised:

Master on Manticore
Master on Chariot

5 Harpies
5 Harpies
5 DR
5 DR

2 RBT

It is very cheesy, but it certainly is dead scary as well.

As to your experiences with Brettonians: Many DE players will feel your pain because DE are one of the armies which cannot and will not ever be able to withstand a charge of Brettonians. You have to run circles around them with fast units and use AP RxB to get rid of dem bastard knights ;)

If you can get a charge in that is very good. There is a very convenient method of getting a charge against any heavy cavalry:

Take a unit of 5 harpies and line them up 1" in front of the knights. Next turn they have two choices: waste their time trying to get around the harpies or charging them. Most players will choose the latter option. The harpies flee and hopefully are overrun. The 16" movement of the knights will mean that you end up right in front of a unit which you have placed there to charge them next turn. Also having a master on chariot or the likes ready to charge a flank helps immensely. This way you can take care of at least one unit and by the time this unit is gone you should have shot another unit to bits. That leaves one from which you have to run away.

Also remember that you will get the first turn against Brettonians when you are playing against them.

HUZZAH!

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Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:03 pm
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Yes you are allowed a BSB in 1000pts or in fact any points match. Brettonians have to take one in any army they have. I would never single shot anything unless they had a 1+ save so against Bretts use Multi-shot as they only get a 4+ save and a 6+ ward if they pray. I would play defensively against them by holding back all units except DR and Shades to march block and harass the knight units. Shoot the crap out of them and wait for them to charge your BG and Warriors.

I'd personally get rid of your Master and put in a RBT or chariot. You should have enough SCR with your warriors and BG to either win or draw combat. Once they're locked in place hit them with shades and DR. I'd personally take as many shooting units possible against Bretts as S3 ap Bolts add up especially when you have lots of them shooting mutiple times. I suggest asking a GW Staff Member who collects Dark Elves to help you out as I did when I was new and it helped immensely. It took between 8-15 games for me to stop losing every game I had when I first started Dark Elves. Hope this helps.

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Dark Elf Tally using the 6th Ed. list
W: 11 D: 2 L: 8
Dark Elf Tally using the 7th Ed. List
W: 24 D: 2 L: 6


Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:03 pm
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Cold One Knight
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Hi Thran,

Warhammer takes time to pick up and we all make silly mistakes forget stuff no matter how long we have played so don't feel disheartened. The important thing when you are learning is not to concentrate on getting the win. You need to concentrate on having a plan and trying to enact it. You will find this hard at first as things get in the way of your plan. However, gradually you will refine your tactics as you think after each game what could I have done differently. If you can see improvements in how well you are enacting your plan then you don't need to feel disheartened as you are getting better.

Quote:
Yes, I was told not to let the Knights get the charge in, but was never told how.


A common type of quote among players struggling. The key is to try something even if it doesn't work that gives you experience. You know not to get charged by the knights so try to bait them with your shades and dark riders. Then the Pegasus knights will come in and try to stop your Shades and Dark Riders from doing this so you need to think of a way of dealing with that.

I'm not saying it's easy (his is a very nasty list to face particuarly with Dark Elves) but it should get better each time you play and the key is you will have a focus for your games. Being successful in Warhammer is about having lots of plans to take down the enemy the more you can think of the better the player you will. Concentrate on the plans and the wins will take care of themselves.

As for your list it is a nice list and I would stick with it. Sure there are plenty of other things you could do but as there is nothing wrong with your list you may as well learn with it for a while. I would suggest however, that you put your master in the Black Guard usually. This gives you a dangerous unit which your opponents will fear and helps protect your master. Your Spearmen are good value troops but they are vunerable against harder units and their main value is adding static combat res and a master doesn't help that. Also your master will ASF with his great weapon which is very helpful. Also I would use your Black Guard in a wide formation (7 or 8) wide against most armies this maximises your attacks which is what you pay alot of points for(I'm not sure if you already do this).


Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:34 pm
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I have found that in many matches that a lone Sorceress [or any spell caster for that matter, generally is ineffective. My suggest is take two, even if the second is bare bones. I really find that synergy is easier to create with two.

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Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:13 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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To try and teach someone the skill of playing DE in this short a post is ofc impossible, but i can give you 2 cool quotes from some DE litterature (cant remember where) ive read in the passed that sums it up well.

1) Only fight the battles you KNOW you will win.
(so, dont trow your expensive units at the expensive units of the opponent unless you know your will win. the easy way to ensure a certain victory, is to flank them with dark riders. Dont gamble unless you really have to)

2) There is no word for coward in the Druchii language.
(so, if the enemy wanna slay your general with some buffed up character in a challenge? throw a lowly lordling at him instead. Meanwhile your general chops the enemys unit to pieces, and you win the combat by 3 and they flee. If the enemy manages to charge your cold ones after you for example missjudged the distance to the enemy for a charge, you flee, if you think you risk loosing an expensive troop. that "honor" the bretonnian knights can keep to themselves. you can always claim that you are "advancing backwards to a tactically superior location" if your opponent makes a fuss :P)


a third simple tip for small battles where you have only one sorceress (and the enemy has no more than 2 wizards) you can really put pressure on him in the magic phase. one lvl 2 sorceress with a darkstar cloak generates 5 powerdice. if you start by using 2 of them to cast power of darkness (basicly always succseds) your opponent will be in a tough spot. he can use 2 dispell dice to stop it, and you will have 3 dice left (more than he has dispell dice left) or he can let it go through. if he lets it go trough, you will gain atleast 2 dice (the ones you used to cast it) and max 4 new power dice. you now have ~6 power dice against his ~4 dispell dice. you can now cast your first dangerous spell with 4 power dice. if he wants to dispell it, he will either have to use a scroll, or take a chance (dispelling a 4 dice spell with only 4 dispell dice). and you will still have 2 powerdice left for a chillwind or such. Using this tactic, my single sorceress managed to dominate the magic phase over an opponent with 3(!) high elf mages. Its alot of bang for the buck. and so what if you misscast every now and then, since you use so many power dice? its an equal chance to be an irresistable force :)

So, get to know your units. Know what they are good and bad at, and make sure you only attack when you have the upper hand (or when a sacrafice will give you the upper hand later). Use your fast units (dark riders, harpies, shades) to block the enemys marches. games of warhammer are won in the movement phase, not in the combat phase. darkeleves rule the movement phase.

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Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:29 am
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:11 am
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Orcs & Goblins is a very random army though... In all my previous battle vs. them, so many of the battles depended on animosity rolls. A game some days ago I got a draw, but today I won a massacre. No different tactics or army list used, only poor animosity rolls.

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Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:49 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I certainly couldn't win with your army, as it is a bitsa without any real strengths.

I would add a second sorc. Give one the DSC and the other the Seal of Ghorond and you have 7 PD and 5 DD, then roll for PoD with your last 2 dice and see what they come up with.

I would drop the RBT and the master as they are both not worth what you are paying for them. The shades are OK but you need some crossbows. I can never find points for both spears and crossbows so I just run crossbows, and these days Coks, harpies and Hydra.

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Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:57 am
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:45 am
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The rules for WoS clearly state that the char uses the special attack of the web INSTEAD of using any normal attacks he has(magic weapons, mundane weapons...)
The killing blow special rule applies to normal attack only, effective when rolling to wound for the normal attack.
So I don´t think that CoB affects characters WOS special attack, only normal CC attack!


Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:59 am
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Highborn
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Do Gobs need LOS to unlease a fanatic? If they dont then drop harpies between two units (one being accused of fanatics and watch the call and chain plow into his other units

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Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:17 am
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Loremaster
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Unfortunately, the Greenskin player may choose in which direction to release his Fanatics. Most of them will not choose 'their own units' direction' as their choice. Some will, in a moment of temporary madness, but it's not something you should count on.


Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:57 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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they can release the fanatic from any point in the unit (yes even from the center of the unit, thus causing them immediate d6 s5 htis! crazy O: ).

Shadowself: Killing Blow applies to all your attacks, even Impact Hits (for the Vampire Count's Black Coach since the CoBlood specifically gives the bonus to the crew of a chariot only) So Web of Shadows will killing blow on a roll of a 6 to wound.


Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:13 pm
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