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Need Help Vs Vampire counts 
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:46 pm
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hey im new here i will be playing vampire counts and i have no idea what works against them any ideas of troops and tactics to use against them would be helpful. thanks


Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:50 pm
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Slave on the Altar

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anyone? i was thinking about going magic heavy and hopefully getting black horror to destroy blocks of skeletons and zombies


Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:10 pm
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While Black Horror is a great spell, it does not destroy undead units - it just thins them out a bit.

Take your time and set up all your charges to happen at once. The following magic phase, use every dispel scroll you've got to shut down his magic phase so he cannot regenerate his units. That way he'll have taken three combats of losses before he can summon again on so many units that he just won't be able to survive after that. How you do it and what units you do it with is up to you.

Black Guard will chew through a unit pretty quick. A Hydra will also. Witch Elves are awesome against undead and super-awesome when you toss in an Assassin. If you can get a flank/rear with another unit (not Harpies) then that will make it so much the better.

Also worth noting is a unit of 6 Cold One Knights with a BSB carrying the Hydra Banner will, on average, blow through a unit of 20 Skeletons/Ghouls on impact. Feel free to add in the Standard of Slaughter for good measure.


Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:25 pm
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Some tips from my experience:

- you cannot dispell all their magic and their summoning spells
- heavy magic can be very double edged: while you can use it for flaming the ethereals/warghulf/blood knights, you'll not do great damage against the troopers. They simply call back more ghouls/zombies/skeletons than your damage.
- consider why the daemons always have great time against Vc (at least until now). They have got: heavy infantries or hard hitters and characters, many magical attacks and are immune to fear.

So try to copy their stiles: shooting is not your friend, but it is the meelee combat (any killed becomes a +1 to the Cr and allows a faster crumbling). Some magic item is surely needed to take out the banshee (that usually is there) and her friends: I recommend a dreadlord with hydra blade and potion of strength on a dark steed, what a bijoux! Immune to fear units are still a good option (in particular witches with the piercing banner, just awesome and so are Bgs). The cauldron can boost more your infantries and assure an important advantage. The dreadlord is needed, Ld 10 helps a lot.

Magic: the ring of hotek is your best friend. It grants immunity to wind of undeath (at least in my interpretation of the rule, but even in my country this is widely accepted). Just stop important evocations (like healing the wounds to the Vampires, warghulf, ethereals and blood knights). Keep an eye on the Van hel's dance: this is the most powerful enchentment they have and surely the most dangerous.

Weak points: do not try to contact with all the enemy units in the same turn, but try to kill one unit per time. It's faster, better, less expencive and easier. Remember that a unit that is still alive after a charge will surely be there even in your next turn, because the Vampire will cast every die on this unit, expecially if you've an expencive troop involved. EDIT: read the phierlihy post. Yes, it could be better having many units engaged in the same turn, but you should be sure to deal some important damage. If not you'll be trapped till the end of the game.
Unworthy choices: in my opinion there are some units that you should not pick up versus a Vc player (these are only my thoughts, not the Bible ok?).
- Chariots: they can easily remain in the cc forever because lack of Cr after the first round.
- Dragon: same as the chariots. If the Vc is wise, he'll try to stop your man with some zombies just summoned and then moved in contact with the dance.
- Xbows: as said, why killing 2/3 ghouls per unit when he'll be able to rise 6/7 per time?
- Rbt: this is a difficult choice. Someone never leaves home without them (even me), but vs a Vampire they can really hurt only the Warghulf and the blood Knights.
- shades: no Cr, not many attacks, too much naked, and for march blocking harpies are better

Most effective units:
- witches: indeed. 13 with hag, manbane and murder's banner are the top to beat anything the Vc can throw to you. Just keep them covered for being able to charge and not be charged. Even a death hag with the asf banner could be really worth.
- Bg: they never leave the combat, can keep it up very well and the vampire has hard time in killing them
- Dr: needed for stopping/redirecting charges and stealing ranks to the enemy unit. xbows are not needed
- Hydra: immune to fear and 13 attacks per turn.

It would be interesting a battle report when you've finished. Let us know how it went.

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Last edited by Master of arneim on Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:51 pm
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Slave on the Altar

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thanks for the input ill be sure to use it. just one question how does a hydra get 13 attacks per turn? i thought it was 7 maybe im missing a rule.

thanks


Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:21 pm
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he's including the beastmaster apprentices in there - they have 3 attacks each
7 + 3 + 3 = 13

hes not insane really ;)

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Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:06 pm
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I used the following list to completely wipe out a VC-army last week (well, his Lord got away):

Dreadlord with Crimson Death, PoKAeleth, AoES, SDC, Shield
Death Hag with Manbane, CoB, RoKhaine
Sorceress Lvl. 1 with Seal of Ghrond

2x Assassin with add Hw, Manbane, RoKhaine
3x 5 Dark Riders with Musician and Rxbows
5 Harpies
17 BG with Full Command and Banner of Hag Greaf, and Ring of Hotek - the General and my sorceress joined this unit
14 Executioners with Full Command and Banner of Murder (and one assassin)
6 Shades with Great Weapons (and another assassin)
Hydra

Against other armies, they will be shot to pieces, but the BG can actually take on several units at the same time (they did, very successfully), the ring of Hotek will protect you from many spells and the four dispel dice have a reasonable chance of stopping much of the rest - you'll never be able to stop them all, of course. Remember the flame attacks from the hydra to stop regeneration and use the shades and the assassin to either take out smaller units or stop others in their tracks. The Execs with the assassin actually killed a unit of Bloodknights including a hero.

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Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:20 am
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Master of Arneim wrote:
Unworthy choices: in my opinion there are some units that you should not pick up versus a Vc player (these are only my thoughts, not the Bible ok?).

- Dragon: same as the chariots. If the Vc is wise, he'll try to stop your man with some zombies just summoned and then moved in contact with the dance.


Most effective units:
- witches: indeed. 13 with hag, manbane and murder's banner are the top to beat anything the Vc can throw to you. Just keep them covered for being able to charge and not be charged. Even a death hag with the asf banner could be really worth.


The only 2 points I really disagreed with there MoA.

Dragon lords are good because they can charge over the screens to get to the casters and they are resilient enough to hold up vs strikes first undead. Think of it like a 3rd hydra (I love the monster mash vs VC).

Witches go down in my estimation for the same reason; vanhels. Vanhels or a corse cart invocation on ghouls will slaughter my witches. Plus they get run around by raised zombies all the time. Only take witch elves in a magic heavy DE army IMO (preferably with a cauldron so you can give them killing blow) have enough dispel to stop the rasies and vanhels.

The other thing I have found effective is more units rather than tougher units. This is because a single super unit can be easily tarpitted by VC. I've seen 30 zombies raised against me in a single phase by 4 successful single dice invocations. Be very wary of being sucked into one of these combats.


Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:28 pm
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Thanks for argreeing on other points. Commenting this part:
Quote:
Dragon lords are good because they can charge over the screens to get to the casters and they are resilient enough to hold up vs strikes first undead. Think of it like a 3rd hydra (I love the monster mash vs VC).

Yes, but surely the count will challenge your lord with the champion of the unit the turn you charge. When you killed it with a resolution of +6 (it doesn't matter if the unit is composed by ghouls or heavy grave guards) you'll be there even the next turn. The count will surely summon again the champion and (if he's not unprepared) will charge on the flank with something else. Even considering that this unit is by itself, you'll need at least 2 turns in total to catch the character (if there is only one inside). In the 2 turn of hth you'll lose the charge bonuses (goodbye to any lance you're using) and the hatred, so maybe you can even lose the combat. If not fleeing you can then strike the Vampire getting only 3 wounds max (if challenged he'll refuse). If he's not the carstein ring you're ok. But consider this: 4 attacks from the dreadlord at S6 (assuming crimson death) + 5 from the dragon are 3 wounds. If you roll a bit under average he can still be alive, not considering ward save, regen nor armour.

About witches you're actually right: I didn't even consider the fact that I always use them with an assassin or the hag graef std. Sorry.

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Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:28 pm
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MoA:

I have a pretty standard ETC monster list. Dragon, manti, 2 DR, 1 crossbows, 3 harpies, 2 chariots, 1 CoK, 1 shade, 2RBT, 1 Hydra. And I'v found that just smashing my Dragon+Manti into the Lords unit on turn 2 makes for a quick game against the VC. Just make sure the dragon is in contact with the vamp lord and he is dead. The same could be done with any units with a champ in it. Preferebly flying or fear causing so you dont mess up the fear test...

Also I'v found shooting to be very effective against VC. The sheer number of shoots my army pumps out will force him to channel his dice in raising and keeps him from flinging magic missiles at my small units. Also shooting up important units such as his knights, wargulf and bats/wolfs will keep him raising units that only regains 1W. This is key to limeting his casting powers. Make him rais his units on 4+ instead of 3+(as is the norm with there inf) this makes it harder for him to cast and gives out less of a gain when he dose sucssed in casting.

The key is asalways against VC to keep your distance and focus shooting/magic and combat. And as someone else said the key is to make multiple charges. My favouret tactic is to let my opponent have first turn and if I cant get to the lord in a good way to just run around and pick on the easy targets while setting up for some nasty turn 6 charges where he cant re-raise his units.

We have an extreamly solid list for dealing with both VC and DoC due to our hige resistans to fear and terror aswell as solid staying power and hitty units. When I play normal armys and not my waccy ETC lists I normaly have 2 really solid Infantry units one of 20 BG with ASF, HB with pendant, heartseeker and PoS and one of 25 Spears with banner of murder, assasin and ItP 1+AS BSB. Both units will kick anything VC and DoC sends there way in combat and pin them in place. As always the game is about taking out there suport troops quickly and then focusing damage from shooting and from combat.

I'v also found the CoB to be ace against both VC and DoC due to the KB and 5+ ward options. Frenzy corsairs are quikly becomming one of my favoret units. Reg troops, knights and 2W units all die in dorves against them and they are dirt cheep for what they do, 140p well spent :)

/Johan R

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Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:49 pm
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Quote:
I have a pretty standard ETC monster list. Dragon, manti, 2 DR, 1 crossbows, 3 harpies, 2 chariots, 1 CoK, 1 shade, 2RBT, 1 Hydra. And I'v found that just smashing my Dragon+Manti into the Lords unit on turn 2 makes for a quick game against the VC. Just make sure the dragon is in contact with the vamp lord and he is dead. The same could be done with any units with a champ in it. Preferebly flying or fear causing so you dont mess up the fear test...


Even a friend of mine threw a couple of hydras in the front of a unit with inside 3 vampire and killed them. I was speaking only about the dragon itself. With your list I don't know how you could survive. Not dispelling means that the Vc can go everywhere. It could be very difficult stopping the Vc dances. Then if I was the Vc, when I see your list I'd field my unit of grave guards behind the others of ghouls, so not leaving any room to contact my unit, or better, I'd take my characters into a wood.

Quote:
Also I'v found shooting to be very effective against VC. The sheer number of shoots my army pumps out will force him to channel his dice in raising and keeps him from flinging magic missiles at my small units. Also shooting up important units such as his knights, wargulf and bats/wolfs will keep him raising units that only regains 1W. This is key to limeting his casting powers. Make him rais his units on 4+ instead of 3+(as is the norm with there inf) this makes it harder for him to cast and gives out less of a gain when he dose sucssed in casting.


I do not agree. I don't think you've many shooting phases: if the Vc is a standard one, you get 4 Vampires (or 3+ witch king with regen banner) for a total of 6 DD and 3 scrolls. Then there should be someone with ghoulkin and summon ghouls allowing his 3 units of ghouls to march ahead at turn 0 becoming even bigger. Then add the Warghulf (first turn it is at 6" from your deployment edge) and banshees (ethereal, so no no magic shooting at them). Then add a couple of units of bats and wolves. How could you stop all of this with shooting at S3? And even considering that you've got many shooting units, it means that when he reaches the hth you're dead (note that 10 Xbows at long range cause per shot, on average, 2,222 casualties to ghouls, 0,555 wounds to the Wargulf, 1,6666 wounds to fell bats, 1,48 casualties to Grave guards and 3,33 casualties to wolves. Rbt on short range: 2 killed on ghouls, 0,666 wounds on warghulf, 1,666 casualties on grave guards, 2 wounds on fell bats, 2,666 casualties on wolves).

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Last edited by Master of arneim on Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:42 pm
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Quote:
Then if I was the Vc, when I see your list I'd field my unit of grave guards behind the others of ghouls, so not leaving any room to contact my unit, or better, I'd take my characters into a wood.


Definately the sane thing to do. Monster lists dont have much magic protection, and if the monster player gives the VC player the first turn, i would see that as an advantage for the VC given the above tactic of not leaving room for monsters to land.

And it gets harder if the VC player uses tarpit wolf unit(s).

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Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:56 pm
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Shooting against undead? If Dwarves can't pull off a win against VC that way, I HIGHLY doubt we can. And while it's great to do combo charges against the lord's unit, the lord's unit where I play is always surrounded by other units so you cannot charge him without removing at least some of the units in front or on the sides. There just isn't any room for you to fit. Any Vampire Count who leads from the front deserves to die on turn 2.


Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:27 pm
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Hell, i let my unarmored Res Count lead from the front just to keep things FAIR. Don't charge a unit unsupported with a dragon adn think it will work. The last guy to do that against me hit a unit with a 7 static CR. he flew in, challenged, the skeleton captain took it, he did his max 5 cr, then broke and ran. I summoned Zombies behind him and charged with Vanhels. Dragon gone, easy as pie.

Dont take witches with the AP banner. CR is what you need, not armor piercing. Take the Warbanner instead.

The hydra Banner Cold One unit is a good way to go and possibly the best way to smash through a unit, though slightly unreliable. The CoB is a great thing to have, as the extra attacks will be needed.

Unless you are going after vamps specifically, you dont need Man Bane. however, since they are vamps... go ahead. Not so sure about it on the Hag, but certainly on the Assassins.

If you plan to take Witches, one thing to consider is using Witches brew. Witches are always outnumbered, and cancelling that portion of CR is a very important advantage, and certainly better than the 2/9-6/9 extra CR you get from RoK on their unit champ. This allows you to be a little cavalier with their use, and combining the Warbanner with their standard kills will let you smash through most of a skeleton block. Course, then you have to keep the buggers from regenning... :(


Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:44 am
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I played against a VC army with a CC list with only 2 dispel dice and the ring. The result was a solid victory for me. I've killed the Lord with my assasin ,with killing blow and a +3d attacks. Another caster was killed by a unit of 5 COK led by my lord and another caster was killed by another assasin. I've got alot of trouble with the black chariot and a unit of wights killed the five COK but for the rest the battle went fine. I got stuck in combat from the second turn and then grinding the unit of zombies. He played with massive blocks of zombies. The hydra took the black knights on and with the help of spearman won the combat. So my advice is try to kill the casters and get into combat as fast as possible.


Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:07 pm
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dont the VC have an armour that negates KB and poison?
would mess up the assassin plan.


Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:22 pm
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Master of Arneim wrote:
Quote:
I have a pretty standard ETC monster list. Dragon, manti, 2 DR, 1 crossbows, 3 harpies, 2 chariots, 1 CoK, 1 shade, 2RBT, 1 Hydra. And I'v found that just smashing my Dragon+Manti into the Lords unit on turn 2 makes for a quick game against the VC. Just make sure the dragon is in contact with the vamp lord and he is dead. The same could be done with any units with a champ in it. Preferebly flying or fear causing so you dont mess up the fear test...


Even a friend of mine threw a couple of hydras in the front of a unit with inside 3 vampire and killed them. I was speaking only about the dragon itself. With your list I don't know how you could survive. Not dispelling means that the Vc can go everywhere. It could be very difficult stopping the Vc dances. Then if I was the Vc, when I see your list I'd field my unit of grave guards behind the others of ghouls, so not leaving any room to contact my unit, or better, I'd take my characters into a wood.

Quote:
Also I'v found shooting to be very effective against VC. The sheer number of shoots my army pumps out will force him to channel his dice in raising and keeps him from flinging magic missiles at my small units. Also shooting up important units such as his knights, wargulf and bats/wolfs will keep him raising units that only regains 1W. This is key to limeting his casting powers. Make him rais his units on 4+ instead of 3+(as is the norm with there inf) this makes it harder for him to cast and gives out less of a gain when he dose sucssed in casting.


I do not agree. I don't think you've many shooting phases: if the Vc is a standard one, you get 4 Vampires (or 3+ witch king with regen banner) for a total of 6 DD and 3 scrolls. Then there should be someone with ghoulkin and summon ghouls allowing his 3 units of ghouls to march ahead at turn 0 becoming even bigger. Then add the Warghulf (first turn it is at 6" from your deployment edge) and banshees (ethereal, so no no magic shooting at them). Then add a couple of units of bats and wolves. How could you stop all of this with shooting at S3? And even considering that you've got many shooting units, it means that when he reaches the hth you're dead (note that 10 Xbows at long range cause per shot, on average, 2,222 casualties to ghouls, 0,555 wounds to the Wargulf, 1,6666 wounds to fell bats, 1,48 casualties to Grave guards and 3,33 casualties to wolves. Rbt on short range: 2 killed on ghouls, 0,666 wounds on warghulf, 1,666 casualties on grave guards, 2 wounds on fell bats, 2,666 casualties on wolves).


ETC style games means he can use a max of 9PD per turn, bounds counting as 1 dice. And recast vanhels aint really a problem since he can only move something once and I get charge reactions. With alot of fast manouvreble troops and large flyers there is no problem to stay 16" away from the enamy. A VC inf unit aint so fast when he needs to turn the unit and possebly add ranks or preform a reform and then only hs the 8" vanhels move left. Keeping out of the way from that is not a problem.

Also my shooting is good enough every time I play. DR with crossbows take out wolfs and bats with a combo of shooting and combat. My dragon lord has a lifetaker and will be shooting at knights and wraiths, my shades and 2 RBT will also put a dent in the knights aswell as my rendingstar assasin, only used in this army. Basic crossbowmen is just there to give him something to go after giving the illusion of will. Also if he ignores them they are blasting skellies at short range. Perhaps your getting to close to the VC or have the wrong prioreties when playing them.

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Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:05 pm
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I have a question, I was wondering if anyone deploys units with 7 models wide? Because when I go up against undead I like to get as many attacks as possible because I know that the unit that I'm charging with will be in combat with undead for at least 2 or more turns.


Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:54 pm
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Quote:
Also if he ignores them they are blasting skellies at short range. Perhaps your getting to close to the VC or have the wrong prioreties when playing them.

Maybe, but I truly consider the average chance of hitting and wounding (usually T4 troops, excluding the fastest and obviously the warghulf). Its not that simple, but if it works for you, maybe you got a good strategy. What I'm considering is that even empire is getting in trouble with a magic Vc, and it knows what "fire" means.

Quote:
I have a question, I was wondering if anyone deploys units with 7 models wide? Because when I go up against undead I like to get as many attacks as possible because I know that the unit that I'm charging with will be in combat with undead for at least 2 or more turns.

I built a heavy hitting infantry list: excluding the bg, witches and executioners have got a frontage of 7 (they are backed up by a cauldron). It does work.

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Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:17 pm
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I just got thrashed by my son who came up with a terrifying combination of vampire lord with red fury and dreadlance with whatever the options are that give it heavy army and no possiblity of getting a killing blow. It all seems rather unstoppable unless one gets very lucky -- I guess assassins could do something if the right unit got attacked -- or one plans exactly for this combination. Anyone got any ideas?

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Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:17 am
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Fluffy , try using the chill blade it works very well against this sort of thing but as all thing works best if you get the charge in and are able to strike first for it really go to town, but if you cant it is still a nasty surprise, challenge his vamp, if he takes any wounds from the chill blade he can not make any attacks for that combat phase very handy :D

Also where do you play in kent as i am in the kent area also?


Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:53 am
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well i play VC and not DE. i will put on what i find hard to tackle in a DE list

- sacrificial dagger is nasty.

- xboss are great at the right targets. forget firing at zombies, or even ghouls to a point. but go for the cav. cav can only recover 1 wound per cast. massed xbows carve up black knights. having said that, fire some shots at infantry units to keep the pressure on. else the power dice that go into healing a unit back up will go into the danse macabre etc.

- war hydra flaming kills off the regen save. very handy. it has just nullified a 125 point banner.

- manticore is hardcore

- dragon is great. but use it to remove rank bonus from the rear.

- bolt throwers keep my cav honest so as to not offer flank shots or snipe the lord. remember we are 3 wounds away from a loss as a VC player.


Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:44 am
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Vampires, cannot touch a BG Deathstar with cualdron in support, just read Grandmasters Ejs GW GT report. we have the tools.

as i said befoe the Cauldrion is your friend and you can get a win.

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Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:25 pm
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Quote:
Witches go down in my estimation for the same reason; vanhels. Vanhels or a corse cart invocation on ghouls will slaughter my witches. Plus they get run around by raised zombies all the time. Only take witch elves in a magic heavy DE army IMO (preferably with a cauldron so you can give them killing blow) have enough dispel to stop the rasies and vanhels.


Deploy them in units of 5. 50 points, they will kill the zombies on their own --> they killed enough to earn back their points + they will still be able to handle an unit of zombies/ghouls/skeletons, just make sure you give them a support charge (flank charge with manticore, dark riders, anything)

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Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:10 pm
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