Interesting thread.
Interesting concept.
As Dalamar mentions, victory is far from granted if the opponent crates a list specifically designed to counter it.
But against an all-around oopponent, it should provide him a headache.
I suggest letting Agelmar give a real try to the concept instead of discouraging him. After confrontation to real combat, his report will be very valuable.
Broadly speaking, I like a lot the ability that Dark Elves have to bring up very different armies. Our opponents cannot predict that we must take such or such army build-up in order to be effective - so they cannot tune-up their force against that.
In order to stay unpredictable, we must keep available several valid options.
Anyone who explores the validity of the shade death star and shares his experience is helping all of us in this respect.
Shadey Business - My take on the Shade Death Star
Moderator: The Dread Knights
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Indeed Dalamar, there is always the chance that it can get bogged down. What I am mainly doing is trying to explore the weaknesses and try to suggest counters and defenses to minimize it. If the nurgle knights charge this unit they will be very resilient and dangerous, hence knowing to lure them away with dark riders. If fast heroes can tie them up, then it leads to keeping an eye out for heroes and maneuvering to buy time while attacking them. War machines, or units that auto hit in general leads me to want to take fire magic to try to get the spell that has no range limit and just takes line of sight. I know the list does have weaknesses, but it also has alot of strengths that balance each other out. The list also has some other strength's as well that you may want to consider.
Though I'm not sure how the second system works, there is victory point and kill point denial. Even if you kill 34 shades, your still only getting about 325 points from this army. To win against this army you can't really just bog it down, slow it down, or chip away at it. You need to pretty much completely destroy it. If you don't manage to completely destroy it then your not really going to get that many victory points for it overall. Someone more familiar with kill points might explain them as I am not sure how characters fit into them. This army on the other hand has the firepower to destroy a unit a turn. Killing one or two units a turn might not seem like much but it gets you full victory points. By killing two, maybe three units then your all ready matching what the opponent can get for doing a huge amount of damage to your shade unit.
The second is that it isn't a one trick pony. A one trick pony is more something where the opponent loses because he isn't familiar with something. Then when the opponent has seen it, he is able to deal with it in the future. You can customize a list to be better against this list, but you cant really make a list that negates the death star tactic through army lists alone. At the same time, many people use all comers lists, which is another great feature of this list. All comers lists are designed to deal with roughly similarly designed armies. This one is radically different from a normal army so what works well against one may fail against another.
Sadly Calisson, I wont be trying out this list and am only discussing the theoretical value of it. I mainly just play friendly games with my friends and while I like how this list plays, I don't exactly think people will like facing off against it in a non competitive setting, so I'm still going to stick to more traditional lists and win through the old fashioned forms of druchii sneakiness.
Though I'm not sure how the second system works, there is victory point and kill point denial. Even if you kill 34 shades, your still only getting about 325 points from this army. To win against this army you can't really just bog it down, slow it down, or chip away at it. You need to pretty much completely destroy it. If you don't manage to completely destroy it then your not really going to get that many victory points for it overall. Someone more familiar with kill points might explain them as I am not sure how characters fit into them. This army on the other hand has the firepower to destroy a unit a turn. Killing one or two units a turn might not seem like much but it gets you full victory points. By killing two, maybe three units then your all ready matching what the opponent can get for doing a huge amount of damage to your shade unit.
The second is that it isn't a one trick pony. A one trick pony is more something where the opponent loses because he isn't familiar with something. Then when the opponent has seen it, he is able to deal with it in the future. You can customize a list to be better against this list, but you cant really make a list that negates the death star tactic through army lists alone. At the same time, many people use all comers lists, which is another great feature of this list. All comers lists are designed to deal with roughly similarly designed armies. This one is radically different from a normal army so what works well against one may fail against another.
Sadly Calisson, I wont be trying out this list and am only discussing the theoretical value of it. I mainly just play friendly games with my friends and while I like how this list plays, I don't exactly think people will like facing off against it in a non competitive setting, so I'm still going to stick to more traditional lists and win through the old fashioned forms of druchii sneakiness.
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Geoguswrek
- Highborn
- Posts: 616
- Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:57 pm
- Location: painting the null stone on my archmage
Hence why i'm thinking up ways of breaking the unit not shooting it down. ogres + tyrant might manage if the tyrant can take a turn of attacks from malekith (maybe with +1 t or something to make him hardier from a butcher) in fact the ogre magic phase is gonna hurt you if they focus on beffing up their own units/attacking the DR (though the ring would be no help here ogres only roll one dice at spells anyway).
Undead are gonna be a slog - the shades are going to be literally wading through cheap zombie roadblocks all day until something big and nasty is set up to attack them. (plus the Vamp item to remove your asf)
Don't take fire to deal with warmachines - take metal instead its got the only spell you can rely on shutting a wm up for a bit.
HE could have a hard time depending on how much they can do with a stardragon - shooting it will do didly squit.
WE will be a tough fight if they have an ancient, since your gonna be reduced to shooting/magic if they do (you won't get near anything else without going past it, getting charged and being stuck in endless 6 to hit challenges). otherwise it should go ok.
Non tzeentch daemons will be horrific since any of the Greater daemons will eat you alive. in contrast there isn't much Tzeentch will do to you.
empire are going to be tough - the stank can hit you and tie you up almost ad infinitum (unless malie has been changed a lot from last addition). the altar will get annoying and most has a big armour save to bounce your shooting. oh yeah and they have warmachines.
brets could be scary- it wont be to hard to get lots of lances at the unit (i mean it is massive) so you could be taking a lot of s5/6 hits plus lots of combat res. and your early shooting will have to go at the peggies so you cant really whittle a lance very easily.
if your opponent stops and thinks about it it could be painful, if your opponent decides to treat them like just another combat unit/ skirmisher unit they'll probably lose (kinda like the old greek phalanx woody army)
Undead are gonna be a slog - the shades are going to be literally wading through cheap zombie roadblocks all day until something big and nasty is set up to attack them. (plus the Vamp item to remove your asf)
Don't take fire to deal with warmachines - take metal instead its got the only spell you can rely on shutting a wm up for a bit.
HE could have a hard time depending on how much they can do with a stardragon - shooting it will do didly squit.
WE will be a tough fight if they have an ancient, since your gonna be reduced to shooting/magic if they do (you won't get near anything else without going past it, getting charged and being stuck in endless 6 to hit challenges). otherwise it should go ok.
Non tzeentch daemons will be horrific since any of the Greater daemons will eat you alive. in contrast there isn't much Tzeentch will do to you.
empire are going to be tough - the stank can hit you and tie you up almost ad infinitum (unless malie has been changed a lot from last addition). the altar will get annoying and most has a big armour save to bounce your shooting. oh yeah and they have warmachines.
brets could be scary- it wont be to hard to get lots of lances at the unit (i mean it is massive) so you could be taking a lot of s5/6 hits plus lots of combat res. and your early shooting will have to go at the peggies so you cant really whittle a lance very easily.
if your opponent stops and thinks about it it could be painful, if your opponent decides to treat them like just another combat unit/ skirmisher unit they'll probably lose (kinda like the old greek phalanx woody army)
As the origional author of the Shade Deathstar article I've decided to add to your choices for an altered Shade-star.
If you want offense/defense for all of the phases (magic, shooting, combat, movement and psychology) here is by far the best build possible.
**************************************************
Sylvan Stalkers 2250 Pts - Dark Elves Army
1 Supreme Sorceress @ 350 Pts
Magic Level 4
Ring of Darkness
Dispel Scroll
The Guiding Eye
1 Sorceress @ 180 Pts
Magic Level 2
3x Null Talismans
1 Master @ 256 Pts
Beastmaster's Scourge; Rptr Crossbow; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak;
Shield; Battle Standard
Banner of Nagarythe
1 Master @ 150 Pts
General; Rptr Crossbow; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
Gem of Nightmares
Ring of Hotek
3 Assassins @ 156 Pts (each)
2ndWeapon; Rptr Handbow
Manbane
Rune of Khaine
33 Sylvan Knights (Shades) @ 735 Pts
Champion; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour
10 Dark Elf Warriors @ 60 Pts
Spear; Light Armour
10 Dark Elf Warriors @ 60 Pts
Spear; Light Armour
5 Dark Riders @ 85 Pts
5 Harpies @ 55 Pts
Casting Pool: 6
Dispel Pool: 5
Models in Army: 70
Total Army Cost: 2248
****************************************************
This list has all the necessary offensive/defensive choices:
Points denial: Only 4 core units with a total of 260 points means that you have to kill some characters or half of the shade unit to have a chance at winning.
Psychology OFFENSE: Gem of Nightmares means that opponents without defense against Fear will be in trouble if the Gem is used and the Shades outnumber them in a winning combat. And being Unbreakable also negates all Psychological benefits of the enemy's army.
Psychology DEFENSE: The Banner of Nagarythe makes the unit unbreakable and therefore couldn't care less if they are beaten in combat or are facing terrifying critters!
Shooting OFFENSE: With 40 models in one unit of skirmishers that all have high BS shooting weapons you'll have a hard time not killing something! In addition I have the Guiding Eye to give me one potent round of shooting with re-rolls.
Shooting DEFENSE: The Ring of Darkness makes shooting but a minor annoyance. Only template weapons can have an effect against the unit that is worth worrying about. And the use of Harpies and Dark Riders to remove these threats ASAP will make shooting almost useless against the Shade-star. In addition the unit is made of skirmishers, so you'd have trouble hitting any with templates due to the spread out nature and normal missiles gain an additional -1 to hit ontop of the already devistating 1/2 BS to shoot them!
Magic OFFENSE: With 8 PD and the potential for bonus PD along with lots of low casting cost magic missile spells will allow my Wizards to cast magic against small units that don't deserve a full shooting phase of destruction. Of course I have to use 1-2 dice for most spells to prevent accidental miscasts from the Ring of Hotek, but that's manageable and can be even more managable if I spread the shades out far enough that the Hotek Carrier is beyond 12".
Magic DEFENSE: MR(3), 5 DD, 1 Scroll & Ring of Hotek will shut down all magic Phases except the most devistating Tomb King armies. Magic is not a worry for me as all direct damage spells will need to be cast on 5+ dice or auto-fail from the Magic Resistance, but in doing so a double is very likely and will therefore prevent most players from using more than 3 dice! Even spells like Invocation can be stopped with the 5 DD and 1 scroll preventing enemies from using magic in any serious way.
Movement: Skirmishers with Movement 5" are very mobile, I can easily charge or dash off in any direction needed. This makes getting favorable positions very difficult and out-flanking will be next to impossible without tons of support units.
Combat: +2 CR from the BSB and an addition +1 from outnumber put me a favorable position with static CR before a blow is struck. 3 Assassins will move to the front with devistating attacks using Manbane and the 2 Masters are nothing to laugh at either. Combats will be quick and deadly and I've got the ability to settle in for prolonged combats if needed due to Unbreakable.
So in conclusion this is an army that can take advantage of every aspect of the game making it an all around balanced list in that manner. It is however potentially aggrivating due to the heavy defensive nature of the build.
I don't like magic enough to use this type of list, but I am thinking about using this list and replacing the Wizards with a Dreadlord & Master with similar equipment. this will make my personal Magic Phase non-existant, but will keep most of the magic Defense.
I'm still painting my Shade-star and developing the army list I want to use, so I've not had a chance to figure out the optimal build, but losing the magic aspect frees up extra points for more core to make the list a little less rediculous.
If you want offense/defense for all of the phases (magic, shooting, combat, movement and psychology) here is by far the best build possible.
**************************************************
Sylvan Stalkers 2250 Pts - Dark Elves Army
1 Supreme Sorceress @ 350 Pts
Magic Level 4
Ring of Darkness
Dispel Scroll
The Guiding Eye
1 Sorceress @ 180 Pts
Magic Level 2
3x Null Talismans
1 Master @ 256 Pts
Beastmaster's Scourge; Rptr Crossbow; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak;
Shield; Battle Standard
Banner of Nagarythe
1 Master @ 150 Pts
General; Rptr Crossbow; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
Gem of Nightmares
Ring of Hotek
3 Assassins @ 156 Pts (each)
2ndWeapon; Rptr Handbow
Manbane
Rune of Khaine
33 Sylvan Knights (Shades) @ 735 Pts
Champion; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour
10 Dark Elf Warriors @ 60 Pts
Spear; Light Armour
10 Dark Elf Warriors @ 60 Pts
Spear; Light Armour
5 Dark Riders @ 85 Pts
5 Harpies @ 55 Pts
Casting Pool: 6
Dispel Pool: 5
Models in Army: 70
Total Army Cost: 2248
****************************************************
This list has all the necessary offensive/defensive choices:
Points denial: Only 4 core units with a total of 260 points means that you have to kill some characters or half of the shade unit to have a chance at winning.
Psychology OFFENSE: Gem of Nightmares means that opponents without defense against Fear will be in trouble if the Gem is used and the Shades outnumber them in a winning combat. And being Unbreakable also negates all Psychological benefits of the enemy's army.
Psychology DEFENSE: The Banner of Nagarythe makes the unit unbreakable and therefore couldn't care less if they are beaten in combat or are facing terrifying critters!
Shooting OFFENSE: With 40 models in one unit of skirmishers that all have high BS shooting weapons you'll have a hard time not killing something! In addition I have the Guiding Eye to give me one potent round of shooting with re-rolls.
Shooting DEFENSE: The Ring of Darkness makes shooting but a minor annoyance. Only template weapons can have an effect against the unit that is worth worrying about. And the use of Harpies and Dark Riders to remove these threats ASAP will make shooting almost useless against the Shade-star. In addition the unit is made of skirmishers, so you'd have trouble hitting any with templates due to the spread out nature and normal missiles gain an additional -1 to hit ontop of the already devistating 1/2 BS to shoot them!
Magic OFFENSE: With 8 PD and the potential for bonus PD along with lots of low casting cost magic missile spells will allow my Wizards to cast magic against small units that don't deserve a full shooting phase of destruction. Of course I have to use 1-2 dice for most spells to prevent accidental miscasts from the Ring of Hotek, but that's manageable and can be even more managable if I spread the shades out far enough that the Hotek Carrier is beyond 12".
Magic DEFENSE: MR(3), 5 DD, 1 Scroll & Ring of Hotek will shut down all magic Phases except the most devistating Tomb King armies. Magic is not a worry for me as all direct damage spells will need to be cast on 5+ dice or auto-fail from the Magic Resistance, but in doing so a double is very likely and will therefore prevent most players from using more than 3 dice! Even spells like Invocation can be stopped with the 5 DD and 1 scroll preventing enemies from using magic in any serious way.
Movement: Skirmishers with Movement 5" are very mobile, I can easily charge or dash off in any direction needed. This makes getting favorable positions very difficult and out-flanking will be next to impossible without tons of support units.
Combat: +2 CR from the BSB and an addition +1 from outnumber put me a favorable position with static CR before a blow is struck. 3 Assassins will move to the front with devistating attacks using Manbane and the 2 Masters are nothing to laugh at either. Combats will be quick and deadly and I've got the ability to settle in for prolonged combats if needed due to Unbreakable.
So in conclusion this is an army that can take advantage of every aspect of the game making it an all around balanced list in that manner. It is however potentially aggrivating due to the heavy defensive nature of the build.
I don't like magic enough to use this type of list, but I am thinking about using this list and replacing the Wizards with a Dreadlord & Master with similar equipment. this will make my personal Magic Phase non-existant, but will keep most of the magic Defense.
I'm still painting my Shade-star and developing the army list I want to use, so I've not had a chance to figure out the optimal build, but losing the magic aspect frees up extra points for more core to make the list a little less rediculous.
- Aaron Chapman
I think I agree with you a bit, malekith is fun and useful but the problem is he can also hold your list back. Hes a great combat charecter but you'll likely be so scared of him dieing that he wont see as much combat
As for your list, theres a few things I could see that I would change. First is the assassins.
Personally, if it was me I would go with
Assassin, 2nd Weapon, Rptr Handbow, Manbane, Rune of Khaine - 156 Points
2 Assassins, 2nd Weapon, Rending Star, Manbane - 151 Points
There is alot of reasons for this. First is the problem you've mentioned before. Getting charged by an ancient, bloodthirster, etc, and challenged. Since only one model ever fights in the challenge you only need one assassin to maximize on his killing attacks. The other two assassins normally unable to do anything can throw their stars as a stand and shoot reaction getting 6 STR 7 hits on it before he even gets into combat with the challenge assassin.
In terms of damage, they will do more damage hitting on 2+ instead of 3+, wounding on 2+ instead of 3+, denying 1 more armor and giving 3 attacks instead of D3. In addition with the range of 12 inches, while your marching to fight your going to be able to use these high power attacks as well.
Some of your items are starting to get redundant as well. I would lose the Guiding Eye, the unit already has BS 5 and does enough damage to drop a lot of units, its likely that it will be overkill I would think.
With two casters, a scroll, and MR 3 you probably don't really need the ring of hotek anymore for magic defense (it could also mess with your casters). It is kind of over kill at that point. I would give the master the ItP item again to free up your banner. Then you can either get them the ASF banner, or if you think it is redundant with all the assassin's you could take either banner of murder (AP for assassins, in order to deal with low toughness knights, as well as 1+ knights), hydra banner for more attacks from the assassin's, or even a fear banner to auto break some people (not to useful since the most popular lists ignore fear
) (You could also probably get rid of the gem at this point)
That would, I believe, make the unit more efficient and free up alot of points from magic items to maybe upgrade the warriors to dark riders with RXB's to warmachine hunt and take table quarters (if fast cav can).
As for your list, theres a few things I could see that I would change. First is the assassins.
Personally, if it was me I would go with
Assassin, 2nd Weapon, Rptr Handbow, Manbane, Rune of Khaine - 156 Points
2 Assassins, 2nd Weapon, Rending Star, Manbane - 151 Points
There is alot of reasons for this. First is the problem you've mentioned before. Getting charged by an ancient, bloodthirster, etc, and challenged. Since only one model ever fights in the challenge you only need one assassin to maximize on his killing attacks. The other two assassins normally unable to do anything can throw their stars as a stand and shoot reaction getting 6 STR 7 hits on it before he even gets into combat with the challenge assassin.
In terms of damage, they will do more damage hitting on 2+ instead of 3+, wounding on 2+ instead of 3+, denying 1 more armor and giving 3 attacks instead of D3. In addition with the range of 12 inches, while your marching to fight your going to be able to use these high power attacks as well.
Some of your items are starting to get redundant as well. I would lose the Guiding Eye, the unit already has BS 5 and does enough damage to drop a lot of units, its likely that it will be overkill I would think.
With two casters, a scroll, and MR 3 you probably don't really need the ring of hotek anymore for magic defense (it could also mess with your casters). It is kind of over kill at that point. I would give the master the ItP item again to free up your banner. Then you can either get them the ASF banner, or if you think it is redundant with all the assassin's you could take either banner of murder (AP for assassins, in order to deal with low toughness knights, as well as 1+ knights), hydra banner for more attacks from the assassin's, or even a fear banner to auto break some people (not to useful since the most popular lists ignore fear
) (You could also probably get rid of the gem at this point)
That would, I believe, make the unit more efficient and free up alot of points from magic items to maybe upgrade the warriors to dark riders with RXB's to warmachine hunt and take table quarters (if fast cav can).