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Druchii for beginners - scratch update 3/4/9 
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Morathi's Favoured
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As there seems to be somewhat of a need for this type of discussion (see this thread http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=60849), I thought I would pick a subject from Calissons' list and see if I can pass on some of my knowledge/experience/blind luck and idle ramblings for the betterment of new Druchii generals.

The subject then is as the title: Starting an army from scratch. In order to make this work I am going to make the following assumptions:

1. The player has a working knowledge of the core 7th Edition Fantasy Ruleset

2. The player has the resources to purchase an initial force of 1000pts, and can then add models to create a 2000pt army

3. The player has read the Dark Elf army book ;)

4. Special characters will not be used as most tournament situations do not allow them anyway


The intention is then to explain the tactic of putting an army together in such a way as to learn how to use Dark Elves, whilst looking at the various tactics the selected units can employ during the game. My philosophy behind this will incorporate the principles of redundancy and balance.

PART ONE - Choosing the general

As we are starting with a small force of 1000pts we do not have to worry about Lord choices. We can come to that at a later stage when we upgrade to 2000pts.

So, Master - Death Hag - Sorceress? For a beginner to the army I would suggest we forget about using a Death Hag due to her liability from frenzy. We can cover that as a side issue at a later stage. For simplicity we are going to choose either a Master or a Sorceress, so let's look at the differences between the two.

IMO the Master is our General, the fact he has leadership 9 is the predominant reason, but also because he can be effectively equipped for a reasonably low cost. This means that the army can benefit from his ld, but he won't give away too many points if he dies. The Sorceress on the other hand only has leadership 8 and is easy to kill, being expensive too. There are ways of making her work but let's keep things simple. Ensuring we have the best possible leadership available for our army is the first tactic we are going to employ.

We will however be engaging the services of a Sorceress as that fits in with the principle of redundancy, meaning that our starting army will have characters active in the magic and combat phases.

Point of note: Redundancy means constructing an army list where units are able to work in conjunction with each other in different ways, and where the loss of any unit or character in the army, means it can still operate in an effective manner.


Regarding magic items for the characters, at this point level I don't think we need to spend too much. We are looking to understand the synergy of the army and basic tactics, so I would expect that our opponent would be sympathetic to our quest, and not use any uber combo against us whilst we go through our learning process.

Personally I like the idea of mundane armour and a magic weapon for the General, and most likely a single scroll for the level 2. So, as you can see we are deliberately limiting ourselves in certain ways as we put this starter force together. Once a few games have been played the list can then be tweaked as preferred.

So a Master with heavy armour, sea dragon cloak and shield, with the Sword of Might comes in at 105pts. The Sorceress comes in at 160pts as she has been upgraded to a Level 2. Leaving us 735pts to spend on troops. When the list is complete we can look at why I have chosen these particular items (as no doubts there will be lots of alternate suggestions ;) ) as well as why I have chosen not to give them mounts... We now need to look at the guys which will do the fighting.

PART TWO - The others

The Battalion Box is a good starting point as it includes a good range of figures which most Druchii Generals will want to have available for choice. From this I think 10 Warriors with repeater crossbows and shields is a good start and they will have a musician. My next choice (additional models to purchase though) is 5 Dark Riders with repeater crossbows and a musician. These 2 units give us an effective missile base due to our good ballistic skill and the armour piercing nature of our crossbows. Both units have musicians for the all important +1 to rally when required.

Next up, and another purchase unfortunately, is a unit of 5 Harpies. These will fulfill many roles in our starter force, so as with Dark Riders, I believe it is important to come to grips with how to use these as soon a possible.

448pts left to spend on units with give static combat resolution(SCR) and added combat resolution(ACR). 180pts buys 20 Warriors with shields, full command and a War Banner for a whopping starting SCR of 3 ranks, standard & War Banner = 5. Plus a potential +1 for outnumbering if we are doing our job right. However, the Battalion Box does not include enough Warriors to put this unit together, so I suggest you use the 16 provided, plus the 2 spare rxb warriors and proxy the missing 2 with a couple of Corsairs for now. Your opponent shouldn't mind as long as you explain to him.

268pts left to spend so let's use the Cold One Knights that come in the Battalion Box. We will give them a standard bearer carrying the Cold Blooded Banner. Might as well get used tot he trials and tribulations of stupidity from the outset, then you can decide whether it's for you or not. :lol:

102pts left so waste not, want not we will buy 10 Corsairs. Our list tops out now at 998pts if my arithmetic is correct. For clarity, here it is:

Master(General) - heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, Sword of Might
Level 2 Sorceress - dispel scroll
10 Warriors - shields, musician, repeater crossbows
5 Dark Riders - musician, repeater crossbows
20 Warriors - full command, War Banner, shields
10 Corsairs
5 Harpies
5 Cold One Knights - standard bearer, Banner of Cold Blood

... ... ...The first game

Ok then, as no one else has offered an opponent it looks like we have to fight Kel's Dwarves in our inaugral battle. This is what he has proposed:

Keledron wrote:
Go on here's your first opponent Dwarves and I'lll use a similar methoodology 2 Thanes for me as I get 4 dispel dice and a combat orientated force of clansmen with a BSB to keep them going

Thane GW Gromil armour Rune of Stone(as 3+)
Thane BSB Gromil armour Rune of Stone
19 clansmen HA, Shields full command
19 Longbeards HA, Shield full command Rune of Battle(+1 CR)
12 handgunners with champion
1 canon with engineer (extra crew are always handy)
10 Slayers with a Giant Slayer

should be about 1000 points


We have to face high toughness, good armour save relenless troops combined with some minimal shooting. An interesting proposition and a challenge which we can readily rise to. So what tactics do we employ?

I always start by doing a quick analysis of the army in front of me, deciding briefly what I will most likely need to do to get control of the game. Now as we are theorising here I will be making a lot of assumptions simply to demonstrate tactical theory, so please don't shout me down for 'fixing' the game in any way ;)

As it is a first ever game I would always suggest to the opponent that the terrain is deployed in a fairly neutral manner so as to have minimal effect on the game from an imbalance point of view. Therefore our table has a hill either side and in each deployment zone, a piece of difficult terrain either side and a wood either side.

Back to the Dwarf army then. The cannon is his only long range threat, and with Harpies and DRs on the board I know I have a chance to deal with it fairly early on so it shouldn't pose too much of a threat. The Handgunners could hurt, but as they are move or shoot they can be mitigated quite a lot so also shouldn't pose too much of a threat. Slayers just die very easily to missile fire so they are of no worry. The problem lies within the blocks and the 2 characters....


More to come :D


Last edited by Dark Alliance on Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:03 pm, edited 6 times in total.



Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:46 pm
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When ruling out a death hag due to frenzy, aren't you ignoring that the most useful hag is one with a cauldron and frenzy has no real affect on her since she can't charge anyway?
Furthermore, despite having no armour, she is one of the best protected generals due to hanging around behid the lines, having a cauldron and ward save to soak up hits and having 2 loyal meatshields to issue challenges on her behalf...to say nothing of being terror causing and stubborn?
Seems like an excellent general for an infantry based force.

Plus, she is a force multiplier on a grand scale with an influence range of 24" plus charges! What master can ever hope to compare with that? Best general in a small game for my money.

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Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:51 am
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For simplicities sake a master is a good start, with many upgrade options to fit various roles!
The main point of having a general as Dark Alliance has stated, is for applying his/her leadership bonus to the troops where needed. A good compliment to this ability is having great mobility on the battlefield. Putting your general on either a dark steed or pegasus allows the general to move to a position to apply their LD bonus where it may be needed. A dark steed is a good low cost solution, and a pegasus becomes an even better one with the ability to fly. Neither one of these mounts are "large targets" so enemy shooting will be at a disadvantage to hit, giving the general some protection without sacrificing mobility. The general can also be "screened" behind other units whilst on these mounts (this will probably be covered later).
The more efficiently you can get your general to where he is needed on the battlefield, the better position you will be in to win combats and take the advantage from your opponent!
-Cheers

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Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:29 am
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As just mentioned, a character's mount is one of his most important characteristics. Not only for gaming purpose but also because the model is different.

Footed, the lone character is a skirmisher and can move around, but not far. He is likely to remain forever inside the unit he started in.
On a DS (Dark Steed), or a CO (Cold One - sturdier but slower and stupid) he can jump easily from one unit to another, and even lone-charge from his unit.
On a Pegasus, he is impressively mobile but cannot join anymore a unit.

The same applies to sorceresses.

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Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:16 am
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As DA has rightly emphasized, the general's most important function is to give Leadership to units in the army. This means three things:
1. the Leadership has to be as high as possible
2. the general should be as well protected as possible (because if he dies, he stops giving his Leadership)
3. the general hould be able to be near the troops to whom he needs to give his Leadership

Point 1 means that the general should be a master or a death hag - the sorceress has Ld8, which is only useful for harpies (all other units have Ld8 or more, anyway).

Second point speaks strongly in favor of a master, for he can have both an armour save and a ward save. Still, as Sulla already said, a Death Hag is also a viable option, as she has a 4+ ward and MR1, plus she is well-protected from shooting by her cauldron.

If our force is going to be predominanlty infantry-based, then the third point means that the general doesn't need to have a mount for the movement purposes. Hence, both a master on foot and a death hag are viable option. If the force is extremely mobile, and the general's leadership is going to be needed on the flanks with mobile troops, then a master on a steed or pegasus is necessary.

Additionally, one has to consider the importance of the general being a general for a given army, and not just a model with some other functions. For example, if one wants to dominate the magic phase, then they mainly care about getting as many casters as they can, and this might be more important for them than having a character that is good to use as a general.

Another example is taking a death hag with cauldron over a master - this is only done when one needs the buffs of the cauldron. Objectively, a master is better suited for the general's role, as he can be given an armour AND a ward, and he can be given more mobility. However, in some cases a player can choose to build the army in such a way as to minimize the weaknesses that a death hag has compared to a master, and maximize the benefits gained by the cauldron's buffs. Here, the first step to minimize weaknesses would be to form a solid infantry core for the army - making a decision to use the general's leadership mainly on this infantry core (hence, making the argument of general's mobility much less relevant). The second step would be to hide the general behind own units against anything except light troops. The third step would be to take units that can gain a lot from the buffs of the cauldron. For example, the biggest benefactors in the whole army list are executioners, followed by cold one knights and then corsairs with Sea Serpent Standard.


Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:57 am
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Thank you very much for your comments so far but let me explain a little about what we are trying to achieve here.

The purpose of this thread is to create an army for a new Druchii general, but without looking to maximise combos right from the outset. It is in homage to the thread link I displayed in the opening post, which is all about developing tactics for an army,not using maximised units/combos and items to produce a point and click army.

Taking the general as an example. There are other alternatives, and for sure the Death Hag/Cauldron of Blood is a good one and one which I use myself very often. For simplicity however, I am going to stick with the easier and more likely choices for someone just starting this army. A Death Hag/COB is a big chunk of our 1000pt limit as well as a higher financial implication. She also cannot take a magic weapon, which will be a requirement for one of the later tactics we will discuss.

As for mounts, at this stage I am going to concentrate upon figures that are currently available from GW. Therefore, at this stage of the story our characters will be on foot. More on that when I update.

What I would like to see though, is that these comments offering alternate viewpoints continue to be posted, and in the same clear way as these initial ones. I like them because the authors have offered sound reasoning in their explanation, and therefore a new general can see how my suggestions can be changed. I will edit the lead post as I expand on this project, leaving the rest of the thread for comments.

Admin note: as we are trying to ensure this is a discussion about tactics, please explain your opinion as fully as possible. Any one line answers or 'silly' posts will be deleted for clarity.


Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:15 am
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DA was also talking about redundancy, which a model of at least 200 points (without gifts) in a 1000 pts force makes difficult.
Also the DH on COB cannot contribute that much to your force. If you are moving, you are going to be outside her LD-umbrella a lot.
To have a big benefit you would need to have a lot of khainite troops for the stubborn to work out. That would imply to stay back with the cauldron (12" range). Which again calls for more difficult tactics. Since this is going to be a beginners guide, I would think this to come later.

But I will gladly sit back and wait for DA's wisdom.

Edit: DA beat me to it. ;)

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Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:20 am
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To me, the strongest reason to have a well protected Master for general in such a small game is, because there's not so many victory points on offer, losing your general can be the difference between a win and a loss. Also a big reason to give him a mount - hopefully between being difficult to kill and difficult to catch, he'll live through six turns.

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Caveat Numptor.


Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite


Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:47 am
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The sorceress gives a presence in the magic phase, the master doesn't. We have a few magic items to boost our magic defense, and I assume most armies will, so a sorceress is a gamble that MIGHT pay off.

Against an unprepared army with still 2 DD, a sorceress (assuming level 2) will have 2 spells to cast, and in general, one will be dispelled/fail to cast.

With clever equipment of magic items on sorceress, (DC and Sac Dagger come to mind), the sorc can get a boost, but it still relies on getting a magicless opponent. Against another player with one mage, it's about equal again.

The master on the other hand, will provide one unit with extra active combat resolution, and due to a mount, a greater chance of running down the unit if it fails the break test. Hitting them hard to win by 4 or 5 is always better than scratching for a win by 1. Master provides combat support (ACR), a greater leadership should the unit he is with should they lose combat (I assume master won't operate on it's own in such small points).

If your opponent has a magician though, he will dominate that phase. So it's a preference of style I guess.

However, assuming a max equipped level 2 costs 185 points, and a max equipped master around 130 (without armour or mounts, depends on the magic item combos, but it's possible), it's a difference of 55 points. Exactly one unit of harpies that can suicide on turn 2 into that enemy mage. :P In small games, that can mean the difference.


Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:08 am
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That's why I tend to believe a Master-general is something of a liability to be protected in small games, and generally prefer a mage. With a mount and a Focus Familiar, she ain't so difficult to keep alive and kicking fairly hard. I believe you're incorrect about the extra pursue dice, though. He has to move as the unit does, and the unit only gets two dice. Also, a Dark Elf level 2 has three spells. That other spell is really important. It's still quite likely that one of three will be dispelled, and more if Powers of Darkness is blocked.

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Caveat Numptor.


Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite


Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:36 am
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Cathel wrote:
DA was also talking about redundancy, which a model of at least 200 points (without gifts) in a 1000 pts force makes difficult.
Also the DH on COB cannot contribute that much to your force. If you are moving, you are going to be outside her LD-umbrella a lot.
To have a big benefit you would need to have a lot of khainite troops for the stubborn to work out. That would imply to stay back with the cauldron (12" range). Which again calls for more difficult tactics. Since this is going to be a beginners guide, I would think this to come later.

But I will gladly sit back and wait for DA's wisdom.

Edit: DA beat me to it. ;)


The above is simply not true. A hag cauldron contributes far more to an army that a master does for not much more points. A fully armoured, magic itemed master is over 150pts. A cauldron hag costs 200 and requires no extra protection because she should never get engaged in combat. She can hide in a forest or bunker behind BG and be almost impossible for 90% of forces to engage.

She requires no khainite troops to have a big benefit. In my experience, the troops that benefit the most from the cauldron are strikes first BG (killing blow), cold one knights (extra attack) and hydra (extra attack or killing blow). Since there will likely be at least one of these units in any army, you have a good support unit right there.

The range of the cauldron's buffs for those units is huge; 24" plus their charge range covers most of the table. Other than the predictable pendant master, no master you make is reliably survivable vs the top tier combat armies anyway so a non engaging general is not the issue it sounds. Don't be too quick to dismiss the cauldron general. She has many strengths the master can only dream of. Not having to risk your general in the front lines is a large advantage; ask any VC player.

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Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:37 am
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In my opinion you should start with a normal Master. You should definitely mount him, as this increases his range of action a lot. As already said, unmounted characters are mostly unable to get to different units in a game, which makes them sitting ducks for the enemy. If you are sure you want a character on foot to be your general however, you should definitely go for the Death Hag (DH). This one has a 4+ save against any wounds caused, is immune to panic tests herself (which makes sure that your other troops really can use the general's leadership: if he is fleeing, your troops can't, but the Death Hag will not flee), is near impossible to kill through shooting as you randomize the shots that hit the cauldron-of-blood-unit, and she has two servants who help her survive.
Furthermore is her zone of action much larger than the zone of action of the master on foot, as the master can most probably not kill more than two units in a battle. The hag however can protect your units in the first turns of the game, by giving an unit a 5+ Ward Save. Later on in the game she can add attacks or killing profiency in about the same way as a master could do: she can give all the models in the unit +1 attack or killing blow. Imagine that you would do this on Cold One Knights (CoK)! Each knight will gain an additional attack, giving you +5 Ws 5 S6 hatred attacks on the charge, something a master can only dream of.

If you mount your master however, he can be better than the DH, as he will be able to spread his leadership better. It really depends on what sort of list you are building; if you plan on using 2-3 blocks of infantery with some support around them, you might be more attracted to the cauldron. If you want a highly mobile force, with Dark Riders as your primary unit, the master on dark steed, cold one, dark pegasus, or even manticore might be your better choice.

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Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:45 pm
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Layne wrote:
I believe you're incorrect about the extra pursue dice, though. He has to move as the unit does, and the unit only gets two dice. Also, a Dark Elf level 2 has three spells. That other spell is really important. It's still quite likely that one of three will be dispelled, and more if Powers of Darkness is blocked.


Quite right, I stand corrected.


Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:47 pm
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In this instance I think just for LD bonus application and keeping him safe playing a defensive general might be a good idea. Basically put your general on a DS, and give him RoH and AoD, this way he can sit behind the main force applying his LD and providing some magic resistance to the army. As Layne suggests he is a points liability, so this way he has mobility, good armor save, and magic resistance. I think this is a good way to tool a master at this level of play to fit the role we are talking about without breaking the bank.
-Cheers

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Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:50 pm
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:)

I appreciate the sentiments of all concerned, but suspect we should all just shut up and let DA write his article. There is simply no right or wrong way to do some things, and getting lost in semantics isn't helping our new player see a workable tactic in what has been written. Once we have a working army structure and roguh tactics, then we can add our own spin to what DA is trying to do.

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Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:30 pm
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Rabidnid wrote:
I suspect we should all just shut up and let DA write his article. ... Once we have a working army structure and rough tactics, then we can add our own spin to what DA is trying to do.
Dark Alliance wrote:
What I would like to see though, is that these comments offering alternate viewpoints continue to be posted, and in the same clear way as these initial ones. I like them because the authors have offered sound reasoning in their explanation


Rabidnid suggests a mostly single-author work.
DA accepts a collective work.

The goal of this thread is to be as useful as possible to the "newbii".

As DA took the lead and obviously has clear ideas about where he is leading us, we should try not to deviate too much from his course.
On the other hand, many of us can provide a genuine help... as long as it helps effectively.
As he suggested, we all could provide every now and then a complementary explanation about other possibilities, as long as it is clearly explained and kept short. Once it is provided, there is no point trying to promote alternative ideas recklessly (it would be better to start an alternate thread).

The drawback that Rabidnid probably regrets, is that our comments break the unity of the thread. As a result, when the topic will be covered, there will be some more work to do to summarize the good things and forget about the unuseful ones for "newbii" (like my present post).
A new, definitive thread should be the ultimate result of the present, working thread.

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Last edited by Calisson on Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:23 am, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:53 pm
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I figured DA wasn't trying to write an article on his own, but asking for insights what would be be the best course for a beginner, and the others were discussing just that, so the best course could be decided from the numerous contributions.

And while I agree a master at this points value has it's value for a beginner, I certainly must say that I've played many 1k games without a master with just a sorceress, to learn the inns and outs of the magic phase, so I would not be too dismissive of this option.

While Dark Jeebs mentioned a specific magic item combo, which was not the intention of the thread (we should let beginners experiment on their own also), I feel that it is worth a mention that the combo of personal defense and magic defense is important in item selection at this level, as just one magic spell at the right moment can turn the tide seriously in this kind of game. Think of the damage a successful Word Of Pain spell might cause at this point level!

But point taken, I'll shut up now. :D

EDIT: ah Calisson, I see you've beaten me at the finish line. :P


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Quote:
I feel that it is worth a mention that the combo of personal defense and magic defense is important in item selection at this level


That was more along the lines of what I wanted to get across thanks Thanatoz!

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For a small army of 1000 points or less, I would probably only take one character -- a Master.

I would not take a Sorceress for the simple reason that a poor roll for spell selection can easily turn her into wasted points. In order to mitigate against this possibility, you really almost need two casters so that chances are one of them would have two viable spells and could therefore make good use of the 2 dice in the common pool. But I would only take 2 casters at levels above 1000 points, since at 1000 and below they just consume too much of the army.

If someone were to take a single level 2, I think the Tome of Furion is a must to mitigate the risk of poor spell selection.

The other thing is that at a points level of 1000 or less, you are unlikely to face heavy magic on the other side, so the Ring of Hotek or seal of Ghrond is generally enough and you don't need a sorceress to add to your own magic defense.

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Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:37 pm
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For me the most important thing when designing a list is understanding how all the parts of the list works together. When you understand the play style you want to be using you build it around a idea.

DA has chosen a master on foot. This means he has a idea of how the list will synergise with the rest of the selections. For the Newb, DE's are not like WOC or daemons and point and click, but they are great when the combine the strengths of different units and with redundency a lost unit is not stopping you answering questions.

I expect DA is thinking of a balanced army for the 1st 1K, based on a counter attacking style with the synergiers to answer questions.

I would be thinking something along the lines of

Master
Sorceress
20 Spears, FC
10 RXBmen
5 Harpies

7 Shades, GWs

Hydra

The list is multi phasal but it looks like a cluster of different units.

The mage and RXbs can help you neutralise support and the harpies assist in that. Against a army with more magic the harpies role changes to a mage hunting role, interacting with the shades.

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DJ Dizzy Posted: Jul 1 2009, 08:13 PM


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Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:35 pm
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Black Guard
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Im not sure I would ever take a master on foot as there are few reason not to take a mount, there are many ways the extra movement can save his life or enable him to make a lone charge that swings the game. Standard build should included heavy armor, SD cloak, shield, topped with a magic weapon.

I also think we have the luxury of not really needing the generals leadership for most troops as they base 8 or 9. This gives us the flexibility for a slightly more experienced player to choose a Caldron or magic heavy theme. Maybe not for the noobie.


Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:21 pm
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Rabidnid wrote:
:)

I appreciate the sentiments of all concerned, but suspect we should all just shut up and let DA write his article.


Calisson wrote:

As DA took the lead and obviously has clear ideas about where he is leading us, we should try not to deviate too much from his course..


Fair enough, see ya.

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Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:44 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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Wow! So many comments!

As I said earlier, the opinions of others are most welcome so Sulla there is no need for "Fair enough, see ya"...

In the opening post I said I was going to make certain assumptions and the primary one is that this thread is aimed at noobs. The varying comments relating to mounted characters, Sorceress generals and Death Hag are perfectly acceptable as they will be of benefit to players of a better skill level than the total noob. So these comments are helping the thread a lot as it is a mammoth task otherwise, trying to incorporate the pros and cons of so many options.

I will build my opening post around very basic concepts, your posts are simply adding flesh to what I am suggesting, consequently between us we should end up with a very useful and versatile overall topic.

(Although it may require splitting at some time if it gets too cumbersome to read)

Now, as I have been out all day I'll add more to the lead post tomorrow. Nighty night and keep the interest flowing. It's good stuff.


Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:06 am
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Highborn

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:57 pm
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Location: painting the null stone on my archmage
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I personally think the word noob should probably be kept out of the thread. Its taken on a negative connotation that newbie doesn't have.
I think at 1000 points we should really be assessing the utility of every point spent on characters, and if, as you suggest gary, we incorporate a sorceress and a master, thats over a third of the entire points in play in four wounds.
In aiming to make a list that is easy to learn with, introduces all elements of the game and allows for the teaching of tactics, as seems to be the aim here. I'd suggest a sorc general. It saves the extra input of 120-150 points on a master for an extra point of leadership alllowing us to get extra models on the table, both promoting more modelling options and an extra unit making the list more forgiving and increasing maneuvre.
simply because i don' reckon an army with 2 tooled up characters at this low a level will provide enough models for a new player to find it easy to get his head around it.


Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:39 am
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Thanks DA for this thread. As a noob/newbie (albeit an old one), I think I understand what DA is attempting to achieve. A list which will help a new player understand how to apply tactics in order to win the game rather than relying on strong combos.

This is (thankfully) a game which relies on randomness. It makes it fun. If you have ever played with Orcs and Goblins or Skaven you'll know that a couple of good or bad rolls can win or lose you the game, often with hilarious consequences. The problem is that this "random noise" can make it difficult to know if you actually played well or were just lucky. Dark Elves are fundamentally a reliable army, rerolls to hit in combat, high leadership, double shot crossbows, good movement; all these things mean that almost uniquely Dark Elf players can more adequately determine whether they played well. Introducing magic for a beginner can make the game more complete/fun but does cloud the necessary feedback.

A master is therefore a sound choice (ignoring the DH + CoB at this stage is reasonable, it forces the new player to focus on the core strengths of the units, without the buffs), but I agree with several other posters that unless I wanted a specific magic weapon (Exec Axe or Soul Render) I would always put him on at least a Dark Steed, even as a Newbie :).

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Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:12 am
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