Is lore of darkness any good? I would contend not...

[Gidean]

Because casting a doombolt on 6 dice with warlocks has roughly
3.5 per die x6 = 21 + level 2 wizard = 23

less than 50% chance of successful cast.

Hence more often than not you end up wasting 6 dice. Then the times you succeed but without IF it can be dispelled.

But if you happen to get it off successfully then you average 14 S5 hits, which depending on a target can:
Reduce a unit to manageable size
Kill an important single model
Do nothing.

For a 24 to cast spell. It is utterly not worth it unless you're desperate.

^
This! Made the same points to my son today while I was discussing my game.

[Cold73]

My only question to that is... Why on earth would you ever cast the Big version of Doombolt?
2D6 S5 hits are plenty of threat....
and with 2 units of Warlocks...in can in theory cast this twice every turn.

Doombolt is not a cure all Magic Missile...
But neither is Fireball.... I don't know about you...but when using Fire magic...i almost never go for the BIG BIG fireball from 4d6....
I prefer not to miscast.

Doombolt is there for me to take care of things that i have trouble with getting into melee with.
* War Machines
* Flying Monsters
* Larger groups of scounts/Fast cavalry.
After that is done I will glady use this spell to get a kill a rank of lets say Warrior of Chaos.

I don't need 4d6 S5 hits to kill an entire unit...i prefer using this spell to clean stuff up...and a simple doombolt is plenty for that.

Is a Doombolt hard to cast with a unit of Warlocks or a lvl 2?
Yes it is...but the most important thing about this spell is the threat is represents.

[Dalamar]

I always cast Warlock bolt with 4 dice. Yeah it's expensive but it gives me about
14+2 = 16 for 12 needed... So I can roll 4 less than average and still get the spell off

I'm ok with these odds

The primary targets for my doombolts are:
Powerful Shooting units (I'm thinking Sisters of Avelorn or Leadbelchers, this includes chariot cannons)
Lone Monsters (characters tend to have enough save to just shrug it off)
Monstrous Units (though not MC with 1+ save)
Combat units without 1+ save

In that particular order. While 2d6 hits is great against war machines, S5 makes no difference from S2... which is nice and easy to cast from Chillwind. If I see 2+ war machines on the other side of the table - I'll keep chillwind most likely.

[Akholrak]

@Cold73

I only cast the boosted version in situations where it would make a significant impact, not just for the sake of it. A Greater Daemon, for example. On average, a boosted Doombolt could possibly inflict around 3/4 wounds (after saves). This really affects how my opponent would play their Daemon, only going into combats where they will come out unscathed, which leaves my other units save from having to deal with it, at least at full strength. Furthermore, it leaves them more susceptible to Bolt Throwers and any ballistic skill shooting I may have. I'm not saying it is worth it every time, but it has worked okay for me so far.

[Sangfroid]

I often cast a max doombolt, as early in the game as the winds of magic allow the main reason aside form going for IF and getting the 4d6 hits and hopefully doing some big damage (bye bye hellpit!) is also for the psychology going into later magic phases,

So let's say it's turn 4 and i have 9 dice, I will make a show of measuring the 18 inches with the lock units then kind of set 6 dice to the side, then go for a 3 dice soulblight or doombolt generally people, let this through because they are anticipating the bigger version, then you have two choices either boost it up and hope for If or not get dispelled or then just cast, a 3 dice doombolts or soulblight with both units (depending in what you need of course)

Sometimes it can work great where you get off the cheap Sb/DB follow by an IF boosted version with 12 dice you can get off two cheap spell (assuming they cast).

Btw I use two units of lock of course

[Vietnow]

Currently I rate dark magic in 3rd position.
Right after lore of slaanesh in 2nd
And lore of hashut in 1st.

Small rant, followed by on topic comments.

This. I was going to quote your post about the "one spell which ends the game" earlier... Yea, that's choir. Blood and glory, I went 2nd. Choir IF'd kills a chariot, 2 RBT's, my peg master, and 4 wounds on a hydra, 3 dr's out of one units, 5 CoK's out of a unit..... etc etc. blah blah this spell is stupid. Not only did that happen, but I had no movement phase other than a unit of DR's on the other flank, and my executioner/bws horde. Game was over top of turn 1 magic phase. The random move got my DL and his DR escort killed next turn when they got eaten by a large combo charge. Just stupid. This removes all fun/skill/strategy/anything worthwhile from a game.

That being said....... Shroud of despair can produce similar results, if done correctly, and not against VC, TK, DoC, anything else immune to pysch, and HE are more difficult. I've denied my opponents multiple magic phases by panic'n his bunker. Shroud can also cause NUMEROUS issues to your opponent. Think of all the leadership tests you have to take in 8th; swift reform, march within 8", restrain, redirect, panic, terror, fear, etc. Remember how many times you've failed a simple test, but made on yer BSB re roll? No inspiring presence or hold your ground, is HUGE. I don't understand why people think this spell is average or bad.

Dark should always be taken on a mobile sorc. This spell is absolutely game changing at almost any phase of the game. Early on you can force easy panic tests on chaff from RBT's, magic missiles, and Xbows. Using your fast cav to be the closest visible enemy unit, you can chain panic many armies right out of the gate. While they may not run off the board, you can deny them most of a turn, and possibly some/most of the following turn. Think of all the move or fire units. Or a caster's unit fleeing, and being unable to cast.

In combat, you can have people testing steadfast on snake eyes quite often, with no re roll. I've killed the immortal Tzeentch BSB twice b/c of this spell, and static combat resolution. He did 2 wounds, and has a BSB. I had 3 ranks, a banner, and a BSB. (he was tarpitting my black guard for a turn, until he could hit them with something else.) But now he's testing on at least Ld 6 with no re roll. But another unit panic'd. so Ld 5. I had a BWS, so he's Ld 4. He broke and instantly died. Perhaps he was a bit over confident in his BSB, but you get the idea.

The spell also makes stubborn units a joke. You anvil has CoC? Well now you're at your own leadership, without a BSB. Our synergy for this is amazing. BWS -1 Ld bubble is great. A K beast makes you reroll a successful test. This doesn't even require multiple spells for synergy.

The aoe range of the spell also gives our lore attribute some love. If you happen to get a treble, things like fanatics are dead, and cause panic tests which will be failed. Those test further reduce the Ld of all affected units. Warmachines will take a wound or two, chariots, low armor save models.

Shroud of Despair doesn't auto win games on each cast. However, it can do many horrible things to your opponent. It require some foresight, and perhaps a small amount of list synergy. This spell is not to be taken lightly.

[Vietnow]

Power of darkness isn't amazing, but it has uses. Esp in non comped environments, where multiple casters, particularly warlocks, are penalized greatly.

The +1S aspect is situational. I've rarely used this spell with the augment in mind. Generally what it can do is extend your phase. Here's an example;

You have 3 casting units.
-L4 of whatever lore
-L2 with tome of furion, you take WoP, b/c it is the best spell for the army you're facing, say DoC.
-A unit of warlocks.

You want to get off one spell from your L4, WoP, and Soulblight. You cast WoP first, hoping they are more scared of your L4's spell. Then you can cast PoD on 2 dice. With +3 to cast you have roll a 4 on 3 dice to fail. Now your opponent has to think whether he wants you to break even, gain a PD, or gain 2 PD. He knows the L4's spell is coming. If he lets it slide, you will likely be able to cast soulblight or the L4's spell. If he dispel's your L4 likely gets her spell off uncontested. Yes you may take a wound, but as we all know, one magic phase can win a game.

With a L4 this is even better, as she likely has at least a 4++, perhaps even some MR to keep her safe from the negative aspect of the spell. Also her +5 to cast means she gets PoD off with 1 PD 1/3 of the time. Just make sure she's done casting the other spell(s) you want from her.

You have to look at these spells from every angle. I find many people look at spells with "effect tunnel vision." For instance doombolt does 2d6 S5 hits. Well I can do 1.5 wounds to a regen'n chimera, kill 2 IC knights, or I can kill 4 fast cav. This is important to know, but it isn't the ONLY aspect to consider.....

Perhaps those fast cav are about to charge an RBT. Taking them to 1 model likely allows your RBT to at least hold in combat. This may convince your opponent to prioritize dispelling doombolt. Then you may have to spread shot them, instead of shooting at a wyvern rider or some other juicy target. BUT if he stops doombolt, now you may be able to bomb shroud in the middle of his army. Or soulblight the SOBU horde rushing at your CoK. You get the idea. Doombolt may not be the best example, but think of something like shroud into an OnG army. It should be priority dispelled or scrolled. If you know this, you know what you can cast. Just save shroud for the end, and he may let everything else through, saving dice for shroud. If you save shroud and PoD... you may get everything off.

The magic phase is a game within a game. With some strategy you can get more out of a magic phase than the average player. The +1 to cast dark lore, and it's relatively low casting values, aid us in this.

[Vietnow]

Something else to consider about Dark Lore, specifically PoD, and its synergy with support casters.

Against many armies, only some of Dark Lore is going to be greatly useful. WoP is top 5-6 spells in the game, when considering its effects and casting value. It UNIVERSALLY useful. No type of army/list wants to see this spell.

Chillwind, more situational.

Soul Stealer, more situational.

PoD..... well if you happen to roll WoP, black horror, soul stealer, and chillwind. And you're playing against DoC... well you may not want soul stealer and chillwind. So swap them for doombolt, and PoD. Now you have another high priority dispel spell. Sure if your sorc is alone on a peggy, the +1 S is about useless. But..... 1 PD is a 1/3 chance to gain 1, 2, or 3 dice. (and you likely have at least a 4++ against the possible wound from generating 4 dice.) This can extend your phase. Perhaps getting another spell off. I don't see how people view this spell as mediocre.

If you roll high doubles for winds, PoD is your best fn friend. Your opponent is already up against it, and you have the ability to get more dice? The argument against this is you're wasting a spell slot? How often do you cast all 4 of your lord's spells? Hell, how often do you NEED 4 spells from Dark Lore? How often do you want the chance of another spell in a phase? Or at least a chance to waste 2 DD of your opponent? I want the latter 2 EVERY phase. PoD gives me opportunities to pull them off.

TL:DR my 3 posts. I like the Lore of Dark Magic.

[Kirthan]

I have run lately 2 units of warlocks and a lv 4 dark sorceress with the sac dagger against my friends dwarves. I can get so many spells off its not even funny, thats before dispell of course. And I have noticed that if you have 20+ Corsairs wich have been buffed with PoD and hexed the enemy unit with WoP the Corsirs can beat 20 dwarf warrirors with any kind of hero. And before you point out that thats a combo, I can tell that I get it off nearly every turn.

[toots]

I have run lately 2 units of warlocks and a lv 4 dark sorceress with the sac dagger against my friends dwarves. I can get so many spells off its not even funny, thats before dispell of course. And I have noticed that if you have 20+ Corsairs wich have been buffed with PoD and hexed the enemy unit with WoP the Corsirs can beat 20 dwarf warrirors with any kind of hero. And before you point out that thats a combo, I can tell that I get it off nearly every turn.

guys - this is exactly what i've been saying for months!!! great minds think alike. get that unit of corsairs on the go with your level 4 and 4++, WoP the incoming unit and you're golden! i wouldn't try it against chaos warriors though, they're the one army i'd have reservations about going into combat with these guys against

[Omnichron]

Personally I wouldn't go with a corsair unit though... too slow to get the charge you need (with the spell you want). Having a sorc on a steed with a cold one bus or warlocks though, PoD is great in such a unit.

S7 on the charge with CoK and S5 with cold ones that round and the knights the next round too. You will most likely kill whatever you meet quite quickly. S5 on Warlocks (and 4 on the horses) will also have quite the impact on your close combat phase.

Running a lvl 4 dark, lvl 2 shadow and a unit or two of Warlocks, and you can debuff your opponents a LOT, and control the engagements to some degree.

The damage spells of the Dark Magic is just okay at best imo. Doom Bolt is good, the rest is somewhat meh compared to the meta I face... Of course I love bladewind those times I meet hordes.

Personally the spell I like the most of the Dark Magic lore is Word of Pain. That spell has saved me and made me win plenty of quite even close combats... and if they dispel it, I can get in a soulblight (or two).

[marcopollo]

Infantry tend to also go well with pegmasters. Against armies that have alot of BS shooting like Woodies, you can hide them in that unit as a peg base takes up 4 infantry slots. Making the pegasus upgrade have an opportunity cost of only 17 pts while in the unit of corsairs/we (50-3x11 = 17).

I mention this because I have taken to putting morathi in a corsair bunker with a pegmaster. She is well protected in combat and can give the unit PoD as a steady buff. The pegs can jump out when needed, and can jump back in. With a decent support magic, like a lv2 scroll caddy and/or warlocks, you can make a decent deathstar with a strong magic component.

[toots]

I have previously calculated that there's a 25% chance of IF on a six dice cast. Assuming the average of the 6 dice + caster level of 2 is 23, then the chance of getting less or more than this is 50% approx. it's an OR condition so just some the probabilities and it's 75% likely that it'll be cast. Need to approximate to a normal distribution really but I want to figure out an easy way of doing it

Because casting a doombolt on 6 dice with warlocks has roughly
3.5 per die x6 = 21 + level 2 wizard = 23

less than 50% chance of successful cast.

Hence more often than not you end up wasting 6 dice. Then the times you succeed but without IF it can be dispelled.

But if you happen to get it off successfully then you average 14 S5 hits, which depending on a target can:
Reduce a unit to manageable size
Kill an important single model
Do nothing.

For a 24 to cast spell. It is utterly not worth it unless you're desperate.

^
This! Made the same points to my son today while I was discussing my game.

[Dalamar]

On 6 dice you have 5 separate cases of box cars
66xxxx, x66xxx, xx66xx, xxx66x, and xxxx66.
the other four numbers are irrelevant.
then you add all results of 19 and above so everything from 19 to 36, that's 17 additional results.
We're at 22 results. Now we need to deduct any results 19 or above that contain box cars which is something i don't want to do right now since I'm on my phone. I think is a safe bet to say there are 3 of those.

We're at 19/36 for a 52% chance for a successful cast. So I wasn't that far off in my original estimate, and it's still not worth the risk. (Now this was counted for a level 4 and not warlocks who would have 3 chances less)

[marcopollo]

Don't forget about double 6's in this formation: 6x6xxx, 6xx6xx,6xxx6x, ... not just double 6's that are side by side.

[Dalamar]

Truth. I was working on my phone.

Even though, their chances still don't conform to my rule of

"the cast value you are aiming for needs to at least the average on the amount of dice you're rolling"

In case of a 24+ cast I would need at least 7 dice and i would still feel it to be rather risky on warlocks but on on level 4

[Saintofm]

I haven't had much of an opportunity to use this lore per say as I like the other lores, but I can see the OP point and some areas I can disagee o mildly.

Power of Darkness: Mostly Agree for this one. +1 strength is nice but not necessary for the most part, and when it is its usualy in a unit that is very combat heavy or been tooled out for such. In my case the wizards I like to keep those in are life (spearmen or crossbowmen) Shadows (spearmen) or metal (Knights). So rather useless for me 90% of the time.

The other half of it I have mixed feelings. Taking a wound was a risk from the last eddition, so any irritation from that was mostly a throw back to that. Mostly kep for a magic heavy list and if you have Soul Stealer to offset the damage it could cause the user.

Doombolt: No complaint for the most part. Its range has always been poor but at least its longer then the spells from lore of death (yeah I'm grasping at straws). THe Strength is nice, and I like the edition of hits, but between death and metal I must have gotten used to the heavy casting difficulty, but yeah the boosted price could be 4 to 6 points less.

Chill WInd: Why? WHY? WWHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYY? I started out earl seventh Edition so we still had the 6th edd book. What was chill wind then? 30" D6 hit agic wills that if one of its S3 hits made a wound the target could not shoot. This was Helkite send for shooting units and warmachie heavy units, even High T Dwarves!

7TH Ed Book comes around and we have standard 24 inch range, but besides keeping the same rules it was now Strength 4 so it could actualy wound something regularly!

Now it's Strength 2, which is all but useless, and now its it that manages to suffer an unsaved wound get -1 to ballistic skill. 2 things: I uderstand the spell gets 2 D6 hits, and there is a need for ballence but this is like going fro Showa Erra Godzilla to Matthew Broderick Zilla. Its weak, not as good as it used to be, and it just makes no sense.

2. Why was't it made a S3 Signature spell with a possibility of getting stronger? Its been our equivalent of a signature spell for the last two books, why the change now and why did it take a deep a hit as it did?

Word of Pain: Its better then last edition's version. Yes we can hit most things on a 3+ but it would be ice to keep the other 40% that can hit us not do likewise. I also liked the strength and Toughness dock for the other as most of our wounding will be on 4+, so a better chance to wound and not be wounded is nice (we're elves, life aint that cheap).

Shroud of Despai: I can see the limitations, but anything to help in making a break test the better.

SOul Steeler: KILL MAIM BURN! KILL! MAIM! BURN! KILL! MAIM! BURN!

Oh, wait we were having an inteligent discution. Sorry, so sorry.

I liked it better when it was a 12" range hit everything in the unit and could be cast in close combat spell. I liked it and I still miss that. I do like the fact you can now get up to 10 wounds instead of double your starting count, but that is on a further role of 4+ for each unsaved wound. SOrry, bu I miss the old one. At least it still ignores armor.

Blade wind: I kinda miss the old one as well. I like having a anti horde spell, but that was Soul Stealer. Rule wise instead of 3D6 hits that can each be allocated to a mini in a unit (including championms and charecters) it now effects everyone in a unit. I like now the wording is better and the S4 hits are armor peircing, but would rather have it as the other and can still be cast in combat.

Black Horror: From a direct damage spell to a vortex, and frankly I saw this coming so I wasn't as miffed by the misfire problem that most of these vortexes seem to enjoy having. I al;so like the fact that is pass a strength test or die instead of the old take a wound as was the last 2 versions. Grated they also caused panic if someone dies but I think this is going to cause panic against a good half of the enemy units in the game as most units are S3, so I got o complaints. The casting difficulty is only slightly more then the last version and for what it does I have no problems with the high difficulty for the boosted version other then I wish I could use it more often without the risk of miscasting.