Can't beat the hordes - try this...the birth of MSU

[Alith anar]

Interested. Very interested. Write the article, please!

I promise you, in one year, everyone will field this. not only druchii players. You heard it here first

It has begun... I am already tinkering with a HE list based on this strategy. Spearmen act like the corsairs (with the exception that they might also be able to take a charge once in a while -nice!) ect... this could be the beginning of a revolution!

[Alith anar]

Interested. Very interested. Write the article, please!

I promise you, in one year, everyone will field this. not only druchii players. You heard it here first

It has begun... I am already tinkering with a HE list based on this strategy. Spearmen act like the corsairs (with the exception that they might also be able to take a charge once in a while -nice!) ect... this could be the beginning of a revolution!

[Alith anar]

Sorry. The Debug ... bug (?) got me.

[Dark Alliance]

I think this is a very good tactic for HEs to consider due to their ability to fight with 2 ranks on the charge. Something the Druchii do not benefit from of course.

Be interesting to see what Mal comes up with. I am using varying versions of this principle in all my lists at the moment. Last night against Lizards and undead it was 2 small units of rxbmen with shields. Worked well again.

[Aki asura]

Please writhe the article!
This is definatly how elves should fight!
It should be like a more numerous Cavarly army, relying more on kills and flanks to get the charge (After all, we ARE faster than any other race!...except beastmen...)

[Malekithau]

I believe my thinking on this subject can almost be summarised in the following (paraphrased) quote from Sun Tzu "The Art of War"

"The superior general will only fight when the battle is already won."

Using small units I have found that I can dictate the course of the battle. Considering I play about 80% of my games against active tourney players I think this speaks volumes for this approach. I know a lot of guys don't agree with this idea but I think it is worth playtesting. I see no reason why you can't field an army that is composed mainly of small specialised units of crossbows, corsairs, witches etc with a large unit or two of spears. Personally I find that the manuever aspect of this army is very rewarding and is where my games are being won. This is as it should be for elves. We don't have the troops for brutal frontal assaults.

Here's another quote from my classical education -

"On what poor, defenceless planet has my monstrosity been unleashed?" Lilo and Stitch - love that show -eh!

[Malekithau]

I believe my thinking on this subject can almost be summarised in the following (paraphrased) quote from Sun Tzu "The Art of War"

"The superior general will only fight when the battle is already won."

Using small units I have found that I can dictate the course of the battle. Considering I play about 80% of my games against active tourney players I think this speaks volumes for this approach. I know a lot of guys don't agree with this idea but I think it is worth playtesting. I see no reason why you can't field an army that is composed mainly of small specialised units of crossbows, corsairs, witches etc with a large unit or two of spears. Personally I find that the manuever aspect of this army is very rewarding and is where my games are being won. This is as it should be for elves. We don't have the troops for brutal frontal assaults.

Here's another quote from my classical education -

"On what poor, defenceless planet has my monstrosity been unleashed?" Lilo and Stitch - love that show -eh!

[Langmann]

What malekithau has been saying is what I have been doing as well. Just like he says, it works great. I have even used this tactic against undead, and have beaten good tournament players with it.

We need to maximize the number of units we have on the battlefield, because we cannot maximize numbers of models. Remember that orcs and goblins, for example, will always outnumber us, but we can OUTNUMBER THEIR NUMBER OF UNITS with our own. That is the key. This is how 20 elves beat 30 blackorcs. Two small elven units of 10, one on the front and one on the flank.

If you cannot understand do this as a real simple example. Take a large unit of 30 orcs or whatever you like, and put it on the board. Then take two small units of 10 elves and put it on the board. One on one with the orcs, the elven units will lose badly BUT by being able to set up flanks... no matter how hard you try, there is no way that you are ever going to get beaten by those orcs. The key is maneuver.

The problem with the hordes is when they try and use these kinds of tactics, their crappy leadership and fighting ability brings them down.

[Master of darkness]

Dude, you rock! I had been registered for all of ten minutes when i found this thread, and I just had to read it all the way to the end! Just the other day I got my hiney handed to me by a Wood Elf player who parked three units of archers in the woods and shot me to death (He did a few illegal things, it was both of our first games, I screwed up a lot too), mainly due to him shooting up my huge blocks of spears, corsairs, and shades. I'm going to try numerous small units against him next time! He can only shoot one per turn per archer unit. Although I doubt I'll give up my general leading a unit of Cold Ones. I must say, those beasts are awesome!
You really should write that tactical article! This is the coolest Druchii tactic I've ever read (blows the snot out of the craptacular article in White Dwarf right after they came out!)
Woohoo!

[Purple whisper]

Question: Would this unit work only for DE? I would expect that the HE could use this tactic as well, and perhaps Chaos... they do lack the many attacks (also due to frontage), but often make up for it in strength of the attacks. They also have high WS.

In the beginning, 6th edition turned everything from small units to big blocks... 20-25 seemed ideal. (When I just joined this board, I asked: "Unit size 15 or 20", and most answered 18, 20 or 25).
If this tactic works sufficient, it might mean that more "highly skilled" armies move away from the big blocks. We'll see...

[Dark Alliance]

We need to maximize the number of units we have on the battlefield, because we cannot maximize numbers of models.


Remember that orcs and goblins, for example, will always outnumber us, but we can OUTNUMBER THEIR NUMBER OF UNITS with our own.

Everyone who is interested in this line of tactical thinking should write these two statements at the top of their army list and read them every time they start to create the army.

This became blindingly obvious to me last Wednesday when I started to deploy 3000pts against a greenskin horde and I had 15 units to his 11!

[Aki asura]

I don't know if it would work for chaos...
The reason it works for elves (I think HE can do it too) is the greater movement.
Our movement is better than most of the enemies movement out there, so we gotta use that, which as we all know, high-numbered units reduce that ability.
Small units of corsairs...that's for me!

Now let's think of it this way;
How do we support it?

This is all fine and dandy when you compare infantry, but what about cavarly?
Our Cold ones are strong, true, but they are not reliabe (stupidity!) Our infantry can not move faster than horses (or coldones or whatever)!
The Answer?
I believe it's magic! The dominion spell prevents movement of the unit!
Cavarly (except for chaos) are MUCH WEAKER if they get charged! So if i stop movement, and counter charge (Or just bugger out of LoS) wouldn't taht be great?

Of course, blackguard are great!

[Silverflame everburn]

Greetings to my dark kindred...

Why would I fight the woodelves when I can beat them by seizing one table quarter ? Their special VP conditions make them easy beats - at the moment.

Uhm, how exactly is that???
And besides, I'd say, because we might have brought *some* 30" firepower.

I almost wet myself in exitement when I read your post.
Although it really has some merrit, you stray too far.
I'd LOVE opposing this sort of an army.
(I play archery heavy Wood Elves)

---

This aside, I think you're absolutely right when you point out that many units bring banners unneeded.
A Wood Elf example:
5 Glade Riders meant to flankcharge opposing regiments. (110VP)
Give the same unit full command, and voilá: 250VP if broken and cought.
Quite a difference. (About the same for Dark Riders I presume...)

(Edit)
Forgot to mention the "Elves are expensive ranks" bit. I absolutely must agree.

[Goricexii]

It used to work fine for Chaos last edition. Although the movement was a handicap compared to us they generally had much tougher units (marauders used to have 2 attacks and basic strength 4 last ed.), so allowing for subtle differences in behaviour it tended to balance out.

I don't think it works for them that well anymore. Man-for-man they're a lot less dangerous than they used to be and the general reduction in Chaos leadership has made them actually quite fragile. Maybe Slaanesh could pull this off. Maybe Tzeentch if they just turned it into a power-dice-fest. Not Khorne and not Nurgle.

I made a couple of 6x2 movement trays last night so I can split my Spear block. I might drop the DR standards as well so I can field another small foot regiment (exes or RXB). I'll see how it goes.

[Maelis]

Yeh, funny that there are a few of us looking at this all at the same time. Druchii intuition

Yes, count me in. I was helping my frind construct his CHAOS 800 pts Turnament list, when I have discovered this thread. I was explaining to him why he should take 20 chaos Warriors and 6 Chaos Khorne Knights.

[Maelis]

But now it brings me one thing:

Havent we hestiated too much when asking for Revision?

Maybe that was the way GW playtested it:

NOT 30 Executioners vs. 30 Orcs
BUT 3x10 Executioners vs. 30 ORCS



Oh well...

[Haplo]

I know you use executions, spearmen, corsairs and so on in a 6 wide and 4 in the back formation but do you do the same with rxb warrriors? I belive it would be quite usefull! What do you think?

[Tarrath]

using these tactics, the synergy of the army is staggering. get mages up there with your dark riders, casting word of pain, chillwind, dominion, etc. to tie up or weaken your units and give flank charges etc.....

[Zabrien]

Haplo, if you put your RxB warriors in that formation, only 6 of them will be able to fire each turn, which means that the last 4 are wasted until they get into CC, which is something you want to try to avoid

[Maraith tuerl]

Well, I'm going to turn the focus on ME now.

For those of you who know me, I've long wanted an army with a dragon. I've also long wanted an army w/ an all-cav thing going. I am doing both now w/ the DE. Current list (just played for the first time last week & loved it) is:

Highborn on dragon, w/ magical gubbins & armor and stuff
Noble on dark peg w/ lifetaker and armor and stuff

5x5 Dark riders w/ RXB, Mu

2x10 CoK w/ FC
1x7 Harpies

Now... with the revision and the thoughts presented in this thread... I'm wondering if I shouldn't do something like...

drop the CoK altogether and go for 6(!) CoC?

Or, slightly less radical, split the CoK into 3 smaller units?

Or, in combination, drop one unit of CoK for three chariots?

Anyone have any comments in this regard? Before anyone says it, I know... I have no scroll caddy. I have no magic defense. I'm aware of this.

[Master of darkness]

Well, the CoKs are really good, so I wouldn't drop them altogether. And your list looks very offensive to me, so I don't reccomend the chariots, as they are rather slow compared to the rest of your army. So I would say your best be to split up the CoKs into two seven man units and one six man unit. That way you can manouver more and set up flank charges with your monsters and Dark Riders. Your list looks good, the harpies and Dark Riders, if employed properly, should be able to hunt down and kill any lone mages, and if you can't manage that, you should be in combat fast enough that it won't matter. Cool theme!

[Maraith tuerl]

MoD> Thanks for the comments. I was leaning against the chariots in general, but then got the crazy thought in my head after reading this thread. Not sure on the idea of splitting the CoK's like you said... not bad in general, but figure that at least one will be without command at that point, and still pretty expensive (which makes it more worthwhile to make 'it count' when charging, etc).

Anyway, I'll probably keep it as is, with the exception that I have been taking the Divine Eye for the Noble (just to have all three Albion items... see my fluff in another thread if you care to know why), but I am strongly considering dumping the useless scanner for a suit of Blood Armor.

The thing I like most about this army is that it plays COMPLETELY differently from my other two armies (HE and Skaven) both of which are fairly 'mixed' in having decent magic, shooting, and hth. THey tend to play usually come-n-get-me, then pounce. Where as this army is completely fluid. Pretty frustrating for an opponent.

[Malekithau]

Nearly 100 posts. Not bad for some nonsensical rambling.

Keep it going guys. Even if it doesn't work as a full small unit army it has certainly made a lot of players think a little differently. That can't be a bad thing.

[Dark Alliance]

The thing I like the most about this tactic is the surprise element. I find my opponents are surprised when they see the large number of small units and even more surprised when it beats them!

It gives us a whole new way to use our Druchii and keeps the army lists fresh. I believe there is still a long way to go with this strategy and the more who try it out the better this will get. @ 1500pts it really is a little gem, at 2000pts I have yet to decide having only played 1 game. Throw in the Revision changes and it makes the tactic even stronger.

I wouldn't want to use it all the time but it certainly will keep regular opponents guessing as to what you are going to turn up with. @ 2000pts I like the idea of an Assassin being in there and 2 Chariots. Yet to try that out.

My hat goes off to Mal' for offering probably the best new train of tactical thought since I have been a member of druchii.net. MSU and the Revision - the DEs have moved forward an immense step in the last month.

Go Druchii!

[Maraith tuerl]

Definitely some 'outside the box' thinking, but I keep coming back to the question if it's a tournament winner? My main opponent is a Chaos player, and I can't figure out how you'd use an army designed under these principles to beat him. Sure, you could get some of his light units (hounds, marauders, etc), but you're gonna be in big trouble against his daemon prince, chosen warriors, chosen knights, etc.

Anyone have any ideas for that? Or is this purely a precision tool?