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Curious to see peoples opinions regarding the Widowmaker rules vs. fluff. As the most powerful/hyped weapon in the warhammer world, do you think it was represented as such?

It is more powerful than the Fellblade, and also doesn't kill its bearer.

So, yes.

...but at the same time it could be argued it is less powerful than some of the past Daemon Weapons (roll to wound, but auto-kill)

So, no.

AvatarofKhaine wrote:Curious to see peoples opinions regarding the Widowmaker rules vs. fluff. As the most powerful/hyped weapon in the warhammer world, do you think it was represented as such?

As with many a weapon or individual. Story and rules don't really tally. Not just a GW issue, fairly common in computer games too.

It is a good weapon but not the best in the game.

Yea, I mean auto wound to d6 is great, but it basically feels like it resulted in the "ghal maraz" sword... Wish they got more creative with the rule set to make it more unique.

It is the best weapon currently in Warhammer.

But for a slayer of gods it has a strange weakness to the banner of the world dragon. It should've ignored ward saves as well.

I broadly agree with all above, also remembering the old canon weapons like Frost Blades, etc. which felt more powerful in some ways.

All that said, by way of "devil's advocate", perhaps the designers would argue that the rules around "what happens if you get hit by Widowmaker" (i.e. wound, armour save, wounds caused, etc.) are only part of the full Widowmaker package. i.e. if you draw it, you get a massive stat/special rules boost as a result of Khaine's channeled power that you wouldn't have got without the sword.

^^Good point!

I don't think Tyrion's stats changed at all. He got Frenzy though.

Dalamar wrote:I don't think Tyrion's stats changed at all. He got Frenzy though.

He got +1 WS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 W, +1 A (2 if you count frenzy). So he definitely has improved statistically from his "Defender of Ulthuan" line, but the entry for the Widowmaker still feels weak both in substance and rules.

Like was already stated, a decent ward or especially units with the Banner of the World Dragon basically render the Widowmakers abilities ineffective. Just seems odd for a weapon that killed 3 greater daemons.

It is pretty good at killing Greater Daemons tbf

Unless they pass a couple ward saves

Standard problem:
- Hero in fluff = incredibly powerful and is very likely to survive near impossible odds
- That fluff incorporated verbatim into the game would = herohammer on steroids
- Consequently, the fluff of the character must be reduced to make him/her playable while still being fun
- But the reduced value of the hero in game terms cannot be applied to the fluff, because heroes die far too easily in games. No one would ever agree to sign up for hero school if heroes died in the fluff as often as they die in the game.

The above applies for magic items too mostly

Red... wrote:Standard problem:
- Hero in fluff = incredibly powerful and is very likely to survive near impossible odds
- That fluff incorporated verbatim into the game would = herohammer on steroids
- Consequently, the fluff of the character must be reduced to make him/her playable while still being fun
- But the reduced value of the hero in game terms cannot be applied to the fluff, because heroes die far too easily in games. No one would ever agree to sign up for hero school if heroes died in the fluff as often as they die in the game.

The above applies for magic items too mostly

100% correct, my problem lies mostly with the lack of originality with the rule set they came out with to reflect the widowmaker. Like I said before, just seems like Ghal Maraz copy

Put it in context: AvaTyrion has 6 Attacks, ASF, WS and In 10 (guaranteed 3+ to hit against almost everyone, with rerolls against any non-ASF opponents), wounds automatically with no armour saves, and does d6 wounds per hit.

There are precious few things in-game that can stand up to that, and most enemies won't survive long enough to even attack. Even Archaon is in deep trouble, since AvaTyrion rerolls failed to wound rolls (Archaon's armour makes it a 3+ instead). Then, assuming you do survive, AvaTyrion has 4 wounds, can't be Stomped, WS 10, a 1+/4++ save (2++ against flaming attacks and spells), and ignores getting killed the first time on 2+. Good luck killing that in one round of combat... so you'd better have ASF or an immunity to Multiple Wounds (or both).

Call me easily satisfied, but if you wanted a weapon to fell the gods (and everyone else), it's hard to top AvaTyrion's load-out. Even the old Frostblades and Daemon Weapons had to roll to wound and allowed armour saves, IIRC.

True, pretty much anything but Malekith is toast against Tyrion.

The value of widow maker against a 2+ ward save is still roughly 3 wounds which will kill most lord level characters.

There isn't much in Warhammer that can produce that kind of defense.

The most common thing you will see is a 4+ ward save and that still gives it a value of 8-9 wounds.

It will kill mostly any single model and do tremendously well against multiple wound troop units such as ogres.

It suffers against regeneration+ward save combos and multiple single wound models.

Id say it is defiantly the best weapon in the game.

That was beyond the question. Ithink the consensus is that Widowmaker is not very imaginative. Just a souped up version of Ghal Maraz.

Dalamar wrote:That was beyond the question. Ithink the consensus is that Widowmaker is not very imaginative. Just a souped up version of Ghal Maraz.

OP (AvatarofKhaine): "As the most powerful/hyped weapon in the warhammer world, do you think it was represented as such?"

Boltshot255: "Id say it is defiantly the best weapon in the game."

I think Boltshot255's response was spot on related to the OP's question: the weapon is the most powerful in the warhammer world context and this translates in game terms that the weapon is the best in the game. The Ghal Maraz dimension became added later in the responses.

Red... wrote:

Dalamar wrote:That was beyond the question. Ithink the consensus is that Widowmaker is not very imaginative. Just a souped up version of Ghal Maraz.

OP (AvatarofKhaine): "As the most powerful/hyped weapon in the warhammer world, do you think it was represented as such?"

Boltshot255: "Id say it is defiantly the best weapon in the game."

I think Boltshot255's response was spot on related to the OP's question: the weapon is the most powerful in the warhammer world context and this translates in game terms that the weapon is the best in the game. The Ghal Maraz dimension became added later in the responses.

yes my point was both, fluff and in-game rule wise. I suppose my discontent with it ultimately comes down to its lack of originality.

Well... what kind of creativity would you expect? It's a sword... To use a quote from a different universe:
"If you don't know which end of the sword goes where, you haven't been paying attention!"

The Widowmaker
Ignores Armor Saves.
Attacks made with the Widowmaker can never wound worse than on 4+, regardless of target's T.
Any successful ward saves taken to protect from damage caused by the Widowmaker must be re-rolled.
Heroic Killing Blow.
This weapon grants the wielder the Frenzy special rule. Unlike regular frenzy, this "death frenzy" grants the wielder +2 attacks but they must test to restrain from frenzy at a -3 modifier to their Ld.
This weapon also grants the Frenzy special rule to all units within 12" (friend or foe).

Dalamar wrote:The Widowmaker
Ignores Armor Saves.
Attacks made with the Widowmaker can never wound worse than on 4+, regardless of target's T.
Any successful ward saves taken to protect from damage caused by the Widowmaker must be re-rolled.
Heroic Killing Blow.
This weapon grants the wielder the Frenzy special rule. Unlike regular frenzy, this "death frenzy" grants the wielder +2 attacks but they must test to restrain from frenzy at a -3 modifier to their Ld.
This weapon also grants the Frenzy special rule to all units within 12" (friend or foe).

What points cost are you going to assign to that beauty?

Give it Multiple wounds (D6) just to round it off

No points costs, it can only be wielded by the avatar of khaine, cost is included wholesale.

D6 wounds are unnecessary, I think HKB captures the nature of the weapon better than d6 wounds.

Dalamar wrote:The Widowmaker
Ignores Armor Saves.
Attacks made with the Widowmaker can never wound worse than on 4+, regardless of target's T.
Any successful ward saves taken to protect from damage caused by the Widowmaker must be re-rolled.
Heroic Killing Blow.
This weapon grants the wielder the Frenzy special rule. Unlike regular frenzy, this "death frenzy" grants the wielder +2 attacks but they must test to restrain from frenzy at a -3 modifier to their Ld.
This weapon also grants the Frenzy special rule to all units within 12" (friend or foe).

The challenge for me is that you essentially have Hellebron's deathsword here, but with a few minor tweaks.
-> Hellebron strikes at S10, so will always wound on a 4+ or below. Tyrian will also always wound on a 4+ at worst, but while Hellebron will wound any foes of T8 or below on a 2+ (and T9 on a 3+), Tyrion has just S5 and the blade you describe has no strength boost, so will be wounding T9 to T5 creatures on a 4+ too, and a T4 creature on just a 3+. This is a massive difference.
-> The re-rolling of ward saves is a plus, but could be secured by putting an assassin next to Hellebron with the Other Trickster's Shard
-> Heroic killing blow is also a plus, but relies on that fickle 6 appearing on a to-wound roll. It turns Tyrion into a gambling monster: roll a 6 and win, don't roll one and he's not half as good. That's not a great dynamic imo.
-> Super frenzy: yup, Hellebron's witch brew here.
-> Frenzy to everyone in 12": Passing the witch brew around a bit.

Which is kind of fitting for an artifact of Khaine to grant similar abilities to those that are used by Khaine's high priestess.

Instead of slightly better runic hammer