Question Regarding Hydra Beast Handlers

Dozerdozen · Post by **Dozerdozen** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:12 pm

Looking for some clarification.

When the Hydra engages in close combat, do the handlers come up and fight to the left and right of the hydra's base? If the Hydra gets charged in a flank, do the handlers form up and fight on the side? Must they or may they? Do beast handlers always stay behind the hydra and only fight when engaeged from the Hydra's flank. If charged in the rear, would the beast handlers step to the side and allow the enemy to engage the hydra while the beast handlers fight from the left and right side of the back of the hydra's base? It seems to me in most situations where you want another unit to charge with the hydra they would be better off not fighting to make more room for a unit to charge in.

Thanks in advance for the info.

Dozer

Dozer

Post by **Kinslayer** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:13 pm

it does not say, so that means you are free to put them where you want. However all 3 models must be in base to base like a unit, and you must try to get as many models into combat as possible. Generally i would move a beastmaster up on either side of the hydra.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:28 pm

The Hydra forms up as a Monster then the Handlers form up as Skirmishers

against 5 Knights for exemple, the Hydra will touch 4, the beastmasters will both be placed so that the 2nd touches the 5th knight to maximize the models in combat

[KN]
[KN][Hydra]
[KN][Hydra]
[KN][B]
[KN][B]

the Last [KN] can only attack 1 beastmaster but if him and his horse do 2 wounds, both beastmasters are dead as they are rank-n-file models, not champions nor characters.

If the Hydra is flanked, its the same thing but at the front and rear of the hydra is where the bm's will be placed.

Nyhircek · Post by **Nyhircek** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:48 pm

Also. i read something about beastmasters been ignored for charge porpouses. Then if my hydra is in combat and gets another charge and the charging unit can touch only a beastmaster. what happens? how do both units aline ?

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:05 pm

They can't be ignored once they're already in combat, so you come into contact with the beastmaster if you flank the Hydra that's already in combat.

But I think you ignore the Beastmaster for the Charge's reach - so if the flanker or whatever charges and can only reach the beastmaster, it'd be a failed charge? If he had enough movement to contact the Hydra then it'd be succesful? I dunno, sounds complicated for nothing.

Faulkynn grom · Post by **Faulkynn grom** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:08 pm

They would align as any normal combat. So as in the above example:

[KN]
[KN][Hydra]
[KN][Hydra]
[KN][B]
[KN][B]
___[ABCDE]
___[XXXXX]

A new unit has flanked the War Hydra on the beast masters' flank. As per normal charging rules, they maximize models. Per the Hydra handler's rule, any one who can attack the hydra must. So, model A must attack a handler as that is all he can. Model B, while aligned with a beast master, is kitty corner to the hydra's flank and his attacks along with the rest of the units will "jump" to the hydra's flank. Likewise, the hydra may attack these models in return. Hope this helps.

FG

Somethingjaded · Post by **Somethingjaded** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:44 am

I may have missed something or be completely off, but can hydras be "flanked" sicne they are skirmishers? unless already engaged they'll always turn to face chargers? and in case they are engaged, no flanking bonus can be had can it?

Post by **Dalamar** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:26 am

They are monsters, monsters don't face the charger.

Maarg beastmaster · Post by **Maarg beastmaster** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:03 am

Page 58 of the new book in the special Rules . The beastmaster use the hydra body as a sheild . so any enemies in CC that can choose to allocate their attacks, must allocate their attacks on the hydra. so having the beastmaster on the left and right of the hydra will give the beastmaster a little add protection. they also recive added protection with missile fire and magic missiles. tthat are randomised , his must be allocated ontothe hydra.

Dggrj · Post by **Dggrj** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:08 am

SilverHeimdall wrote:They can't be ignored once they're already in combat, so you come into contact with the beastmaster if you flank the Hydra that's already in combat.

But I think you ignore the Beastmaster for the Charge's reach - so if the flanker or whatever charges and can only reach the beastmaster, it'd be a failed charge? If he had enough movement to contact the Hydra then it'd be succesful? I dunno, sounds complicated for nothing.

Yup, just like you have to move war machine crew in front of a machine, giving the chargers 20mm free, you ignore the handlers, meaning they have to go all the way till they touch the hydra. Not to complicated, and important since the hydra's arcs matter for charging / being charged.

Zeth · Post by **Zeth** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:24 pm

SomethingJaded wrote:I may have missed something or be completely off, but can hydras be "flanked" sicne they are skirmishers? unless already engaged they'll always turn to face chargers? and in case they are engaged, no flanking bonus can be had can it?

To be a bit more specific then Dalamar. They are a Monster & Handlers unit (found on page 67 of the BRB) and although they skirmish their rules specifically tell us they do have a flank/rear as well as a few other differences from normal skirmishing units.

Post by **Grogsnotpowwabomba** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:53 pm

I had a situation where I had charged my Hydra into the front of a block of Saurus like so:

[SW][SW][SW][SW][SW]
_____[BM][Hydra ][BM]
__________[Hydra ]
__________[Hydra ]
__________[Hydra ]

In a later round, the Hydra was charged in the flank by Skinks like so:

[SW][SW][SW][SW][SW]
_____[BM][Hydra ][BM][Sk]
__________[Hydra ]____[Sk]
__________[Hydra ]____[Sk]
__________[Hydra ]____[Sk]

Is this how the Skinks should have lined up? Is the Hydra allowed to attack the Skinks here (and vice versa)? It says in the BRB that when being charged, the handlers are completely ignored and that the monster is the only model that matters. So if that is the case, should the Skinks have been aligned like this:

[SW][SW][SW][SW][SW]
_____[BM][Hydra ][BM]
__________[Hydra ][Sk]
__________[Hydra ][Sk]
__________[Hydra ][Sk]

Or should they have been aligned like the first example, but the Hydra is involved in the combat? After some discussion we eventually agreed to the first example, but that the Hydra and Skinks could strike each other.

I was curious what others who may have run into this situation have done. Thanks.

Zeth · Post by **Zeth** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:09 pm

GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:I was curious what others who may have run into this situation have done. Thanks.

Have been wondering how to deal with that situation as well.

Going straight by the rulebook your second example where the skinks just line up against the hydra is correct. However this feels sloppy and almost cheesy.

If I was a TO in a tournament I would rule the second scenario you presented. Although if I was a player I would have my opponent line up against the BM.

This certainly needs clarification.

Post by **Grogsnotpowwabomba** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:16 pm

So if you line up against the BM, would you rule that the Hydra can fight?

Zeth · Post by **Zeth** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:33 pm

Nope.

Tolkar of har ganeth · Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:58 pm

I think that you should treat it as if you charged the back of a unit with an incomplete rank. Meaning that you'd line up against the beastmaster, but dont count as out of combat for the skinks not in base contact with the hydra. Seeing the fact that they don't stop one meter in front of the hydra..

That's my thoughts...

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:43 pm

Its written quite clearly that Handlers are IGNORED completely when you charge the Monster in question.

The Monster has 2 Flanks, a Rear and the Front arcs - it is a normal charge against it, it is not a charge against a skirmisher because the Hydra is not a Skirmisher.

Once the Hydra's chargers are correctly aligned to the Hydra (have to maximize during their charge as normal), the beastmasters are placed to maximize the amount of models in combat - thus against 5 knights, you place the War Hydra where you want but there will be 1 beastmaster that can be targetted by 1 knight and its horse, so a possibility of losing both beastmasters.

I used "Knights" here but any 25mm base enemy will have both Beastmasters on the same side

[B][B][HYD]
-------[----]
-------[----]
-------[----]

Anyway, in the way you described it, the skinks would've aligned to the beastmaster and if the beastmaster died, the Skinks would've been out of combat (though still counting for Flank bonus for that round of combat)

Zeth · Post by **Zeth** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:09 pm

SilverHeimdall wrote:Anyway, in the way you described it, the skinks would've aligned to the beastmaster and if the beastmaster died, the Skinks would've been out of combat (though still counting for Flank bonus for that round of combat)

You just went through saying that they BM"s are ignored completely when the unit is being charged, I'm confused how you go from arguing that point to saying they would contact the BM.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:05 am

Hydra charges Saurus, Hydra is placed in contact with 4 Saurus Warriors, leaving 1 Saurus WArrior 'out of combat'.

Both Beastmasters are then placed to make contact with the 5th Saurus Warrior, so if placed like this:

[S][S][S][S][S]
------[HYDR]
------[HYDR]
------[HYDR]
------[HYDR]

The beastmasters will be...

[S][S][S][S][S]
-|b|b[HYDR]
------[HYDR]
------[HYDR]
------[HYDR]

Now, do we still apply the 'Handlers are completely ignored' even when they are already engaged in close combat? There's no clear answer, I think ~_~