Mods, I don't know if we have a specific forum for this sort of thing, so I posted it here. Feel free to move it if it's in the wrong place.
Out of boredom and my undying love for the Druchii, I've decided to try my hand at fixing up the current Dark Elf army book. The intent is to tone down some no-brainer options and increase the desirability of other, lackluster parts of the book. The hope is that such changes would encourage players to take more diverse army lists, as more options in the book would be viable.
This is my first draft at this attempt, so I'd very much like to get some feedback from people about it.
Special Rules
Khainite
Add the following: Khainite characters and units are Immune to Panic.
Units
Death Hag
Add the following: If a Death Hag is your army general then all Witch Elf and Executioner units of at least 10 models count as Core, while all Black Ark Corsair and Dark Rider units count as Special.
Black Dragon
Change points cost to 350.
Assassin
Change cost of Assassin to 100 points. Change equipment to Additional Hand Weapon. Delete Additional Hand Weapon option. Change Temple of Khaine item points limit to 50.
Black Ark Corsairs
Change Weapon Skill rating to 5.
Dark Riders
Change cost of Shield option to Free.
Harpies
Change cost of Harpies to 12 points per model.
Black Guard
Change cost of Black Guard to 14 points per model.
Kouran of the Black Guard
Change Wounds rating to 2.
Har Ganeth Executioners
Change cost of Har Ganeth Executioners to 11 points per model. Change Magic Banner points limit to 50.
Tullaris of Har Ganeth
Change cost of Tullaris to 75 points. Change Wounds rating to 2.
Witch Elves
Change Magic Banner points limit to 50.
Shades
Change Shade unit size to 5-12.
War Hydra
Change War Hydra Attacks rating to 6, change cost of War Hydra to 225 points.
Magic Items
Dagger of Hotek
Change cost of Dagger of Hotek to 20 points.
Heartseeker
Change cost of Heartseeker to 25 points.
Web of Shadows
Change cost of Web of Shadows to 25 points.
Executioner’s Axe
Change cost of Executioner’s Axe to 70 points.
Blood Armor
Delete existing rules entry, replace with the following: Models on foot only. Heavy Armor. The wearer of Blood Armor gains the Khainite rule. This does not allow them to take Temple of Khaine items.
Ring of Hotek
Change area of effect to 6”.
Insert the following: Crown of Black Iron (Talisman) 30 points
The model gains a 5+ Ward save, and has Magic Resistance: 2 against all Light and High Magic spells.
Pendant of Khaeleth
Add the following line to the entry: Characters using the Pendant of Khaeleth may not take Armor Saves against wounds.
Gem of Nightmares
Change cost of Gem of Nightmares to 20 points. Add the following line to the entry: If the user already causes Fear, they cause Terror for the duration of the turn instead.
The Guiding Eye
Delete existing rules entry, replace with the following: Use after the bearer or their unit rolls to hit with a shooting attack, you may re-roll all misses. After using the Guiding Eye roll D6, on a result of 1 the bearer suffers a wound with no Armor Saves allowed. The Guiding Eye cannot be used to re-roll misses from a War Machine.
Black Dragon Egg
Delete existing rules entry, replace with the following: The bearer of the Black Dragon Egg gains the Noxious Breath attack (see Black Dragon entry). In addition, the bearer may consume the Black Dragon Egg at the beginning of any phase, destroying the item and granting them Toughness 6 until the end of the turn.
Crystal of Midnight
Change cost of Crystal of Midnight to 20 points.
Hydra’s Teeth
Delete this entire entry, replace with the following: Hydra’s Teeth (Magic Weapon) 30 points
Thrown Weapon, Range 12”, Multiple Shot x2
Each hit inflicts D6 S2 wounds on the target unit.
Death Mask
Change cost of Death Mask to 35 points.
Black Staff
Change cost of Black Staff to 50 points.
Banner of Cold Blood
Delete existing rules entry, replace with the following: One Use Only. Use before making a Leadership Test. Until the end of the turn the unit may roll 3D6 for all Leadership tests and discard the highest D6 result rolled.
Standard of Hag Graef
Delete this entire entry.
Insert the following: Standard of Har Ganeth (Magic Banner) 35 points
Khainites Only
All Khainites in the bearer’s unit gain the Always Strikes First rule. For each roll of 1 to hit (after re-rolls), roll a further D6. On a further result of 1 the unit suffers 1 wound with no Armor Saves allowed, distributed as shooting. Wounds inflicted on the bearer’s unit by the Standard of Har Ganeth do apply towards their opponent’s Combat Resolution score.
Dread Banner
Change cost of Dread Banner to 50 points. Add the following line to the entry: If the unit already causes Fear, it causes Terror instead.
Temple of Khaine Items
Cry of War
Change cost of Cry of War to 5 points.
Black Lotus
Change cost of Black Lotus to 15 points.
Witchbrew
Change cost of Witchbrew to 20 points.
Rune of Khaine
Change cost of Rune of Khaine to 35 points.
Dance of Doom
Change cost of Dance of Doom to 25 points.
Venom Sword
Change cost of Venom Sword to 50 points.
Lore of Dark Magic
Bladewind
Delete this entire entry.
Insert the following: #4 Dominion (9+)
Choose a target within 12” and Line of Sight of the caster. If the spell is successfully cast, the caster may choose to prevent one of the following: the movement of the target unit (including fleeing voluntarily from a charge), any shooting attacks from the target unit (including Stand and Shoot responses) or any spells being cast by Wizards in the target unit. The effect of this spell lasts until the beginning of the caster’s next turn. Units under the effect of Dominion may still flee if compelled to do so due to Psychology or Break Tests.
Black Horror
Change the casting value of this spell to 12+.
SkaerKrow's Dark Elf Patch/Errata
Moderator: The Dread Knights
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The skaerkrow
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SkaerKrow's Dark Elf Patch/Errata
To the dark house, dwelling of Irkalla's god,
To the house which those who enter cannot leave,
On the road where travelling is one way only,
To the house where those who enter are deprived of light
To the house which those who enter cannot leave,
On the road where travelling is one way only,
To the house where those who enter are deprived of light
-
The skaerkrow
- Noble
- Posts: 456
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:35 am
My rationale behind the various changes...
Khainite
The whole "Khainite" angle seems to lack punch in this edition. If you're going to do a sect of murdering killers, you need something that makes them stand out. While being Immune to Panic isn't the most overly impressive rule in the world, it works well with the theme of the Khainites and gives them just a bit more to help to define them as desensitized psychopaths.
Death Hag
It stands to reason that you should be able to field armies of Khainites without Hellebron in your list. While it does enable people to run largely Stubborn armies, that simply puts the onus on the opponent to knock out the Cauldron(s) of Blood that's bolstering the Khainites in the list.
Black Dragon
This is due to the Hatred imparted into the Dragon by its rider. I was tempted to make it as costly as the Star Dragon.
Assassin
I've never seen anyone run an Assassin without an Additional Hand Weapon, so they may as well come with them standard. The changes to the Assassin's Magic Item points limit is one part of a series of changes aimed at making them less formulaic (since there only seems to be three Assassin configurations that hit the table). It also removes the Manbane + Rending Stars combo that everyone hates.
Black Ark Corsairs
From a gameplay perspective, upping the Corsairs to Weapon Skill 5 helps to reduce their overlap with Warriors, giving them an actual edge in close combat. On the fluff/lore side of things, it represents the fact that Corsairs are beyond the skill of lowly Warriors, constantly at war on the high seas and in distant lands.
Dark Riders
Losing the Fast Cavalry rule is penalty enough, actually applying a cost to the Shield upgrade is just prohibitive.
Harpies
A little too cheap at their current price point, being a disposable flying Core unit.
Black Guard
While I believe that Black Guard (without the Standard of Hag Graef) are overrated, increasing their cost by a point is easier than trying to peel away one of their special rules.
Kouran of the Black Guard
To have any realistic use on the tabletop, he needs to be more survivable.
Har Ganeth Executioners
The lack of synergy in the Executioner's equipment/statline combination makes the change easily justifiable. The change in their banner limit gives them some much needed potential for variety.
Tullaris of Har Ganeth
See Kouran. Additionally, Tullaris is ridiculously overpriced at the moment.
Witch Elves
Similar to the Executioners, this allows Witch Elves to have some actual variety in their banner selection.
Shades
This was obviously an oversight by the book's original designer. It also does away with the much maligned Shade Deathstar.
War Hydra
The War Hydra is designed to break lines. This means that it charges a unit head on and has a realistic chance of breaking on through with its initial charge. With that in mind, it can't lose too much offensive power, otherwise it will have no chance at overcoming an opponent's static CR. The loss of an attack makes it more difficult for the Hydra to reach the necessary kill count in order to win a combat on the charge, while the increase in points will hopefully quiet some dissenting voices.
Changes to all Magic Weapons
Simply attempting to make them more desirable and competitive with other options in the list.
Blood Armor
This change was made for theme as much as anything (plus, the Blood Armor has some overlap problems with the Armor of Darkness). Previously, some players would run Executioners as the bodyguards for their Heroes or Lords (in Har Ganeth themed armies, if nothing else). Now they can again. This also gives a bit more potential for variety to characters present in Khainite units.
Ring of Hotek
A balance change, nothing more.
Crown of Black Iron
One of the biggest reasons why Dark Elf players always seem to bring the Pendant of Khalaeth is because there is no other mid-grade Talisman in the Dark Elf book. Bringing back the Crown of Black Iron remedies this.
Pendant of Khaeleth
A balance change, again. This makes the "unkillable" Dreadlord far more vulnerable. It also works to further illustrate the fact that the Pendant is a treasure from the Convent of Sorceresses.
Changes to Enchanted Items
Simply attempting to make them more desirable and competitive with other options in the list. In this case, trying to give the Dark Elves an actual Magic Items selection!
Hydra’s Teeth
An interesting idea but clumsily executed. Making the Hydra's Teeth a more conventional option seems like a better option.
Black Staff
While the Black Staff is good, it isn't so powerful as to be game-breaking in the hands of a mere Sorceress.
Banner of Cold Blood
Another attempt to make an item with poor synergy into something worthwhile.
Standard of Hag Graef
Truth be told, this is the biggest "no brainer" option in the entire book. The units that would benefit from it the most are the ones that can't take it, and it has served to give Black Guard a ridiculously over-inflated reputation. Better to force them to rely on Assassins for Always Strike First attacks.
Standard of Har Ganeth
My do-over of the Standard of Hag Graef. There's a decided Risk vs. Reward theme to the Dark Elf army, and I believe that this item works well with that premise. It isn't as simple as the Standard of Hag Graef, and it can only be used by the two units who arguably "need" it the most.
Dread Banner
Attempting to give it more synergy with an army that's already full of Fear causing items/troops.
Cry of War, Black Lotus, Witchbrew, Dance of Doom
Another attempt to make some under-represented options more attractive.
Rune of Khaine
The Rune of Khaine seems to come standard on every close combat Assassin in the Dark Elf army. Upping its cost prevents it from being taken with Manbane or the Touch of Death (thanks to the change to the Assassin's points limit), making it more of a choice and less of a compulsory option.
Venom Sword
The Venom Sword had to come down in points in order to make it a selectable option (thanks to the reduction in points limit on the Assassin). Because it cannot be used with the 10 point Additional Hand Weapon that was rolled into the cost of the Assassin, it's actual price is closer to 60 points than 50. While it is a potent option, we don't see many Venom Swords floating around currently, for 15 points more.
Bladewind
Another interesting idea, poorly executed. In this case, I elected to remove it.
Dominion
Quite frankly, Dark Magic has too many damage spells. Losing one for an old favorite, and a spell that plays up the domineering, disruptive angle of the army seems like a positive change.
Black Horror
A minor balance fix.
Khainite
The whole "Khainite" angle seems to lack punch in this edition. If you're going to do a sect of murdering killers, you need something that makes them stand out. While being Immune to Panic isn't the most overly impressive rule in the world, it works well with the theme of the Khainites and gives them just a bit more to help to define them as desensitized psychopaths.
Death Hag
It stands to reason that you should be able to field armies of Khainites without Hellebron in your list. While it does enable people to run largely Stubborn armies, that simply puts the onus on the opponent to knock out the Cauldron(s) of Blood that's bolstering the Khainites in the list.
Black Dragon
This is due to the Hatred imparted into the Dragon by its rider. I was tempted to make it as costly as the Star Dragon.
Assassin
I've never seen anyone run an Assassin without an Additional Hand Weapon, so they may as well come with them standard. The changes to the Assassin's Magic Item points limit is one part of a series of changes aimed at making them less formulaic (since there only seems to be three Assassin configurations that hit the table). It also removes the Manbane + Rending Stars combo that everyone hates.
Black Ark Corsairs
From a gameplay perspective, upping the Corsairs to Weapon Skill 5 helps to reduce their overlap with Warriors, giving them an actual edge in close combat. On the fluff/lore side of things, it represents the fact that Corsairs are beyond the skill of lowly Warriors, constantly at war on the high seas and in distant lands.
Dark Riders
Losing the Fast Cavalry rule is penalty enough, actually applying a cost to the Shield upgrade is just prohibitive.
Harpies
A little too cheap at their current price point, being a disposable flying Core unit.
Black Guard
While I believe that Black Guard (without the Standard of Hag Graef) are overrated, increasing their cost by a point is easier than trying to peel away one of their special rules.
Kouran of the Black Guard
To have any realistic use on the tabletop, he needs to be more survivable.
Har Ganeth Executioners
The lack of synergy in the Executioner's equipment/statline combination makes the change easily justifiable. The change in their banner limit gives them some much needed potential for variety.
Tullaris of Har Ganeth
See Kouran. Additionally, Tullaris is ridiculously overpriced at the moment.
Witch Elves
Similar to the Executioners, this allows Witch Elves to have some actual variety in their banner selection.
Shades
This was obviously an oversight by the book's original designer. It also does away with the much maligned Shade Deathstar.
War Hydra
The War Hydra is designed to break lines. This means that it charges a unit head on and has a realistic chance of breaking on through with its initial charge. With that in mind, it can't lose too much offensive power, otherwise it will have no chance at overcoming an opponent's static CR. The loss of an attack makes it more difficult for the Hydra to reach the necessary kill count in order to win a combat on the charge, while the increase in points will hopefully quiet some dissenting voices.
Changes to all Magic Weapons
Simply attempting to make them more desirable and competitive with other options in the list.
Blood Armor
This change was made for theme as much as anything (plus, the Blood Armor has some overlap problems with the Armor of Darkness). Previously, some players would run Executioners as the bodyguards for their Heroes or Lords (in Har Ganeth themed armies, if nothing else). Now they can again. This also gives a bit more potential for variety to characters present in Khainite units.
Ring of Hotek
A balance change, nothing more.
Crown of Black Iron
One of the biggest reasons why Dark Elf players always seem to bring the Pendant of Khalaeth is because there is no other mid-grade Talisman in the Dark Elf book. Bringing back the Crown of Black Iron remedies this.
Pendant of Khaeleth
A balance change, again. This makes the "unkillable" Dreadlord far more vulnerable. It also works to further illustrate the fact that the Pendant is a treasure from the Convent of Sorceresses.
Changes to Enchanted Items
Simply attempting to make them more desirable and competitive with other options in the list. In this case, trying to give the Dark Elves an actual Magic Items selection!
Hydra’s Teeth
An interesting idea but clumsily executed. Making the Hydra's Teeth a more conventional option seems like a better option.
Black Staff
While the Black Staff is good, it isn't so powerful as to be game-breaking in the hands of a mere Sorceress.
Banner of Cold Blood
Another attempt to make an item with poor synergy into something worthwhile.
Standard of Hag Graef
Truth be told, this is the biggest "no brainer" option in the entire book. The units that would benefit from it the most are the ones that can't take it, and it has served to give Black Guard a ridiculously over-inflated reputation. Better to force them to rely on Assassins for Always Strike First attacks.
Standard of Har Ganeth
My do-over of the Standard of Hag Graef. There's a decided Risk vs. Reward theme to the Dark Elf army, and I believe that this item works well with that premise. It isn't as simple as the Standard of Hag Graef, and it can only be used by the two units who arguably "need" it the most.
Dread Banner
Attempting to give it more synergy with an army that's already full of Fear causing items/troops.
Cry of War, Black Lotus, Witchbrew, Dance of Doom
Another attempt to make some under-represented options more attractive.
Rune of Khaine
The Rune of Khaine seems to come standard on every close combat Assassin in the Dark Elf army. Upping its cost prevents it from being taken with Manbane or the Touch of Death (thanks to the change to the Assassin's points limit), making it more of a choice and less of a compulsory option.
Venom Sword
The Venom Sword had to come down in points in order to make it a selectable option (thanks to the reduction in points limit on the Assassin). Because it cannot be used with the 10 point Additional Hand Weapon that was rolled into the cost of the Assassin, it's actual price is closer to 60 points than 50. While it is a potent option, we don't see many Venom Swords floating around currently, for 15 points more.
Bladewind
Another interesting idea, poorly executed. In this case, I elected to remove it.
Dominion
Quite frankly, Dark Magic has too many damage spells. Losing one for an old favorite, and a spell that plays up the domineering, disruptive angle of the army seems like a positive change.
Black Horror
A minor balance fix.
To the dark house, dwelling of Irkalla's god,
To the house which those who enter cannot leave,
On the road where travelling is one way only,
To the house where those who enter are deprived of light
To the house which those who enter cannot leave,
On the road where travelling is one way only,
To the house where those who enter are deprived of light
-
Dread_knight666
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- Posts: 420
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
Great job these are defiantly some cool ideas, most everything seems fair too. I am particularly fond of the khainite rules, this is were I feel the book has failed. I am fond of the units but on their own they lack any synergy. Making them immune to panic makes sense too, I often wondered why the assassin who was trained to fight to the death would have a panic attack?
Dropping blade wind for dominion was good too. I hate blade wind and never understood why dominion was dropped. I also agree that dark magic has too many direct damage spells.
One suggestion I may make. I would like for the COB to be able to travel with a khanite unit. I really like it, but not being able to participate in CC really hurts it IMO.
Interesting read, very cool ideas.
Dropping blade wind for dominion was good too. I hate blade wind and never understood why dominion was dropped. I also agree that dark magic has too many direct damage spells.
One suggestion I may make. I would like for the COB to be able to travel with a khanite unit. I really like it, but not being able to participate in CC really hurts it IMO.
Interesting read, very cool ideas.
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The skaerkrow
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Yemeth
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- Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:06 pm
- Location: A Crag of Coal - Ostrava, Czech Republic
Great changes. Dominion.. it was feared almost more, than black horror. I miss that spell!
One thing I'm not sure about is the new Banner of dread.
I mean, come on, terror causing COK?
I'll be using this setting in a game next week against Chaos mortals, so I'll drop by and share the experience.
One thing I'm not sure about is the new Banner of dread.
I mean, come on, terror causing COK?
I'll be using this setting in a game next week against Chaos mortals, so I'll drop by and share the experience.
Odi ergo sum - Druchii's illumination
DE noble is talking to a HE prisoner
DE: 'Do you know the difference between you and me?'
HE: 'Hmmmmmgh'
DE: 'That's right, I've still got my tounge.' - Anon
DE noble is talking to a HE prisoner
DE: 'Do you know the difference between you and me?'
HE: 'Hmmmmmgh'
DE: 'That's right, I've still got my tounge.' - Anon
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The skaerkrow
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- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:35 am
I agree that it seems odd to have Terror causing Cold One Knights, though the Dark Elf book already has many ways to bring Terror to the table. Indeed, I believe that only the Skaven rival them in that capacity. Truth be told, in its current incarnation the Dread Banner seems like a strange inclusion in the Dark Elf book. I'm tempted to give it an entirely different effect, perhaps making it some sort of Bound Item.
As it stands, I think the bigger impact of the Dread Banner in my revision is that it can be given to a unit of Witch Elves or Executioners who, with the presence of the Cauldron of Blood, become Stubborn and lose their Fear vulnerability. I'm sure that many Undead and Daemon players won't appreciate that one bit.
If you (or anyone else!) uses these revisions during a game, I'd be very interested in hearing about how well they do on the table.
As it stands, I think the bigger impact of the Dread Banner in my revision is that it can be given to a unit of Witch Elves or Executioners who, with the presence of the Cauldron of Blood, become Stubborn and lose their Fear vulnerability. I'm sure that many Undead and Daemon players won't appreciate that one bit.
If you (or anyone else!) uses these revisions during a game, I'd be very interested in hearing about how well they do on the table.
To the dark house, dwelling of Irkalla's god,
To the house which those who enter cannot leave,
On the road where travelling is one way only,
To the house where those who enter are deprived of light
To the house which those who enter cannot leave,
On the road where travelling is one way only,
To the house where those who enter are deprived of light
hmmm i do not agree with several points, but commenting every point is not useful so i stick to a few only:
corsairs are a core choice, they should not have WS5! give them 4 and make the tiny rxbows worth, then they are great. maybe keeping both attacks but the bows cost additional 3, 4 points?!
hyrda with 5 attacks would be appropriate because it has 5 heads (but in addition with increasing points, maybe to 200... dunno. the newer armies have stuff like vaghulf, the new slaven thing, black c. for vampires with are hard to kill as well - don#t forget that. comparing with old books is not possible because of the powercreep)
witches go to WS5 because they are elite and khainites should be better in combat than a boltthrower crewman
my personal wish for them: let them skirmish and give them a special rule: stunny beatuy and favoured, beloved girls of khaine with great reflexes - probably because a combination of both each close combat attack suffers -1 to hit
makes them so great... dont get points out of ranks, but do not die like flies... of course the points have to be adjusted, probably (with WS5) has to go up to 14, 15 points
maybe because of skirmisher can only take a champ, no other command; needs testing of course
dath hag should have access to magical weapons
for the item stuff everyone has his own opinion probably... i don't like several changes there, other ideas are good
i had a lot of ideas as well, but no one cares - especially GW, thats why i never wrote it down
corsairs are a core choice, they should not have WS5! give them 4 and make the tiny rxbows worth, then they are great. maybe keeping both attacks but the bows cost additional 3, 4 points?!
hyrda with 5 attacks would be appropriate because it has 5 heads (but in addition with increasing points, maybe to 200... dunno. the newer armies have stuff like vaghulf, the new slaven thing, black c. for vampires with are hard to kill as well - don#t forget that. comparing with old books is not possible because of the powercreep)
witches go to WS5 because they are elite and khainites should be better in combat than a boltthrower crewman
my personal wish for them: let them skirmish and give them a special rule: stunny beatuy and favoured, beloved girls of khaine with great reflexes - probably because a combination of both each close combat attack suffers -1 to hit
makes them so great... dont get points out of ranks, but do not die like flies... of course the points have to be adjusted, probably (with WS5) has to go up to 14, 15 points
maybe because of skirmisher can only take a champ, no other command; needs testing of course
dath hag should have access to magical weapons
for the item stuff everyone has his own opinion probably... i don't like several changes there, other ideas are good
i had a lot of ideas as well, but no one cares - especially GW, thats why i never wrote it down
At last, we will have revenge...
Hi mate
I do agree with you one most points, however
Assassin
I've never seen anyone run an Assassin without an Additional Hand Weapon, so they may as well come with them standard. The changes to the Assassin's Magic Item points limit is one part of a series of changes aimed at making them less formulaic (since there only seems to be three Assassin configurations that hit the table). It also removes the Manbane + Rending Stars combo that everyone hates.
How are we going to kill those line breaking chariots ? it was a mangle for us in the 6th edition. Remeber!!
Also if the hydra is going to cost so mutch points, im selling mine on ebay . 235/ 225 I would spend it if it was a lineholder like a treemen, remeber the handlers are an liability. It has to take a panic test once one got killed. Also the hydra only has WS 4, yes even with hatred i wont (WILL NOT) break ranks.
How about our dreaded Reaper bolt throwers. those things are so crap.
If could take an option to make it Strengt 7 i would gladly lose the rending star assassin.
While we are at it. Give our Black guard shields, make em lose an attack. And let them do as they are supposed to do: Guard! they need shields
I do agree with you one most points, however
Assassin
I've never seen anyone run an Assassin without an Additional Hand Weapon, so they may as well come with them standard. The changes to the Assassin's Magic Item points limit is one part of a series of changes aimed at making them less formulaic (since there only seems to be three Assassin configurations that hit the table). It also removes the Manbane + Rending Stars combo that everyone hates.
How are we going to kill those line breaking chariots ? it was a mangle for us in the 6th edition. Remeber!!
Also if the hydra is going to cost so mutch points, im selling mine on ebay . 235/ 225 I would spend it if it was a lineholder like a treemen, remeber the handlers are an liability. It has to take a panic test once one got killed. Also the hydra only has WS 4, yes even with hatred i wont (WILL NOT) break ranks.
How about our dreaded Reaper bolt throwers. those things are so crap.
If could take an option to make it Strengt 7 i would gladly lose the rending star assassin.
While we are at it. Give our Black guard shields, make em lose an attack. And let them do as they are supposed to do: Guard! they need shields
Saithis :
Frenzied skirmished girls, with a whopping massive armour save. charging in every direction
I dont think so. Lets face it, those witches are a big mistake for anyone taking them.
The witches need an additional points drop. 8 points are good for those witches.
They die so, soo hard. T 3 and not even light armour, what where they thinking! WItches are only there for fluff reasons.
PS. i already sold my worthless exectutioners.
Frenzied skirmished girls, with a whopping massive armour save. charging in every direction
I dont think so. Lets face it, those witches are a big mistake for anyone taking them.
The witches need an additional points drop. 8 points are good for those witches.
They die so, soo hard. T 3 and not even light armour, what where they thinking! WItches are only there for fluff reasons.
PS. i already sold my worthless exectutioners.
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Dread_knight666
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- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
The witches need an additional points drop. 8 points are good for those witches.
They die so, soo hard. T 3 and not even light armour, what where they thinking! WItches are only there for fluff reasons.
PS. i already sold my worthless executioners.
Witches don't die much harder than anything else in our list, light armour seldom makes a difference either and they won't panic to shooting or magic. PS there is nothing fluffy about witches against horde armies or other lightly armoured troops/monsters.
So you sold your executioners, you probably bit it hard on the resale, good for you. I use executioners in all of my games with great effect, I think they are arguably one of the best great weapon infantry in the game, beautiful models too.
It's a pity people so easily dismiss some options in our book as garbage, I think the entire list is exceedingly strong if used appropriately.
Also if the hydra is going to cost so mutch points, im selling mine on ebay . 235/ 225 I would spend it if it was a lineholder like a treemen, remeber the handlers are an liability. It has to take a panic test once one got killed. Also the hydra only has WS 4, yes even with hatred i wont (WILL NOT) break ranks.
Funny, my hydra is easily capable of breaking ranks units in the front. Obviously you have to exercise caution, but it is capable. I also agree it could see a point hike and I don't think 225 is unreasonable at all when compared to other monsters.
Compare it to the vargulf, witch is also the same points.
Hydra pros
The hydra has 2 more attacks, 8 if you include the handlers. The hydra having WS 4 is a moot point when coupled with hatred.
4+ as, +1W, +2Ld
S5 Breath weapon can be devastating
Can move through woods without penalty and can even shoot
Doesn't loose wounds from combat res
Common ground
Hatred
regeneration
terror
S,T,I all the same
Vargulf pros
No flank or rear charge
Flyer
Not a large target
Unbreakable
No handlers
The hydra is easily in a different class and at 175 points it is the envy of all other armies IMO. I would gladly shell out 50 more points.
I don't agree with your ideas on the assassin, I think it is too harsh. I think it is fair as is, although it may seem unjust at times that is the nature of the assassin. He does one of two things, either slaughters everything, or if he fails, he will probably die to even the crappiest of infantry making him a big point sink. I lost mine to a chaos warrior champion last game and I was running the killing blow kit, he is a glass cannon and if things go south even by the thinest margin, he is at serious risk of dying. I do agree he should come with an additional hand weapon and I also believe although he is not counted as a character, there should be a restriction.
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Endra divini
- Shade
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:43 am
- Location: Australia,NSW
Witches don't die much harder than anything else in our list, light armour seldom makes a difference either and they won't panic to shooting or magic. PS there is nothing fluffy about witches against horde armies or other lightly armoured troops/monsters.
So you sold your executioners, you probably bit it hard on the resale, good for you. I use executioners in all of my games with great effect, I think they are arguably one of the best great weapon infantry in the game, beautiful models too.
It's a pity people so easily dismiss some options in our book as garbage, I think the entire list is exceedingly strong if used appropriately.
I completely agree.
[Zenith]
I almost never leave at home without my exe's. When used right they can be a royal pain in the backside for my opponent.
Witches are just fine IMO, yes a 50pt banner would be nice but those are not what makes a unit. I always give my witches the AP banner plus the rune of Khaine for the hag. They are great at dealing with medium to low armour troops or unarmoured beasts I can tell you.
Most people look at Black guard, then compare them to witches and Exe's and say they are worthless. This is simply not true because though I agree that BG are great value for their points the three elites each have strengths in quite different fields.
Try using the BG without the ASF banner and you will see that they arn't all that spectacular compared to the other two.
In conclusion:
-Witches work best against low armour save models
-Exe's work best against High armour save models
-BG work best as a more defensive unit thanks to their great psycology. They also work well against medium Armour/T troops.
Even though Witches have no armour a 5+ isn't much better in todays army environment.
cheers.
Endra the corrupted
WS 6
S 3
T 3
D 4
I 4
Image: Tall and Lean.
His black armour leaks with a searing dark due.
And over his back is a cloak of which speaks to him of his past for he himself had long since forgotten it.
WS 6
S 3
T 3
D 4
I 4
Image: Tall and Lean.
His black armour leaks with a searing dark due.
And over his back is a cloak of which speaks to him of his past for he himself had long since forgotten it.
zenith, how long are you playing, seriously?
execs can be very good... i once fielded them with a deathhag including firststrikebanner and had a cauldron in reach - first they had their wardsave, later +1A
nothing on the table was able to stop them, nothing.
and they are still a nice flanking unit. give them armourpiercing, combine them with black guard - BG stops even a heavy cav unit and execs finish them off...
you can use them, it's just a question if you want to go infantry heavy imo
and i don't agree that witches are bad (atm).
they can cause complete havoc when hit a bad armoured unit.
by the way - the +W3 attacks for the champion is very important for that unit, that's why i don't like the idea of points increse
when they skirmish they are easy to bait of course, this may be a problem.
but maybe i did not make my position clear: i think DE army lacks one important thing: individuality
of cours the list is efficient, but what rules are there for normal units - hatred, immune to panic, fenzy, fast cav, fear, poison and a weapon like rxbow and so on!
common... the only 2 rules are: corsairs (which no one uses for known reasons) which foce the fleeing unit to reroll the higher one and black guard with always reroll attacks.
that's it...
i think thats a lack of unique rules.
when i think of the other books - skaven are full of rules (even worthless slaves!), complete vampires. orcs and goblins have unique rules - even the negative ones and so on...
imo the druchii was made efficient, but unloving
execs can be very good... i once fielded them with a deathhag including firststrikebanner and had a cauldron in reach - first they had their wardsave, later +1A
nothing on the table was able to stop them, nothing.
and they are still a nice flanking unit. give them armourpiercing, combine them with black guard - BG stops even a heavy cav unit and execs finish them off...
you can use them, it's just a question if you want to go infantry heavy imo
and i don't agree that witches are bad (atm).
they can cause complete havoc when hit a bad armoured unit.
by the way - the +W3 attacks for the champion is very important for that unit, that's why i don't like the idea of points increse
when they skirmish they are easy to bait of course, this may be a problem.
but maybe i did not make my position clear: i think DE army lacks one important thing: individuality
of cours the list is efficient, but what rules are there for normal units - hatred, immune to panic, fenzy, fast cav, fear, poison and a weapon like rxbow and so on!
common... the only 2 rules are: corsairs (which no one uses for known reasons) which foce the fleeing unit to reroll the higher one and black guard with always reroll attacks.
that's it...
i think thats a lack of unique rules.
when i think of the other books - skaven are full of rules (even worthless slaves!), complete vampires. orcs and goblins have unique rules - even the negative ones and so on...
imo the druchii was made efficient, but unloving
At last, we will have revenge...
I seriously playing DE from the start of the 6 th ED.
Im not ranting, believe me im not. At my gaming club their are 3 or maybe 4 DE players out of 15 players. The other 2 both use the black guard/ASF combo. But im not. I still use my 6th ED based army. with includes
-Bolt throwers (crap) but i can target those annyong slaanesh giants.
- Supreme sorceress on peg.
- lvl 2 sorceress,
- Pendant noble bsb on dark steed.
assassin, with manbane and rune of khaine. Lots of spearmen. dark riders, rpx men, hydra, shades. harpies. for a total of 2000 pts
rarely but Sometimes i also make a BG list. This list above, for me works great. I mostly use metal magic and im so glad DE can pick that lore.
I stopped working with expesive elite infantry simply because one lucky template attack screws them completely. I face a lot of gunlines! So DE creators if you strip the pendant, the Black guard and cheap hydra cost. Please be my guest. At least i wont hear the endless complaining of others. and DE will be a rare sight again.
Amen.
Im not ranting, believe me im not. At my gaming club their are 3 or maybe 4 DE players out of 15 players. The other 2 both use the black guard/ASF combo. But im not. I still use my 6th ED based army. with includes
-Bolt throwers (crap) but i can target those annyong slaanesh giants.
- Supreme sorceress on peg.
- lvl 2 sorceress,
- Pendant noble bsb on dark steed.
assassin, with manbane and rune of khaine. Lots of spearmen. dark riders, rpx men, hydra, shades. harpies. for a total of 2000 pts
rarely but Sometimes i also make a BG list. This list above, for me works great. I mostly use metal magic and im so glad DE can pick that lore.
I stopped working with expesive elite infantry simply because one lucky template attack screws them completely. I face a lot of gunlines! So DE creators if you strip the pendant, the Black guard and cheap hydra cost. Please be my guest. At least i wont hear the endless complaining of others. and DE will be a rare sight again.
Amen.
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The skaerkrow
- Noble
- Posts: 456
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:35 am
I'll just pick out a couple of points, since the discussion seems to have taken on a life of its own...
Yes, Weapon Skill 5 Corsairs. If the worst thing that I do is give us Core infantry that hits most things on 3s (with Strength 3 attacks), then I'm in good shape
.
You can't drop the Hydra down to 5 Attacks without seriously compromising its ability to work as a line-breaker. Besides, the sixth attack obviously represents its tail .
Assassins can still combat Chariots. Besides, if your opponent manages to flank us with a rank-breaking Chariot, who says we're entitled to an almost certain (depending on the Chariot) escape clause? The idea is to avoid that situation. Besides, your Assassin can still challenge, kill the guy riding the Chariot (which would be why it's Unit Strength 5) and kill him, thus preserving your rank bonus. Keep in mind that an Assassin will never be in base contact with more than two or three models at a time which, combined with Always Strikes First, means that he needs to kill a very small amount of models in order to be untouchable by anything other than Spearmen. This becomes almost a ridiculously easy prospect when running Rune of Khaine and Manbane/Touch of Death (especially if the Banner of Murder is in the unit).
Attacks that can be randomized between the Hydra and the Handlers always hit the Hydra, so unless you're dealing with war machines or sniper effects (Hochland Longrifles, spells that target individual models) then your Hydra shouldn't be testing much for Panic.
Yes, Weapon Skill 5 Corsairs. If the worst thing that I do is give us Core infantry that hits most things on 3s (with Strength 3 attacks), then I'm in good shape
.
You can't drop the Hydra down to 5 Attacks without seriously compromising its ability to work as a line-breaker. Besides, the sixth attack obviously represents its tail
.
Assassins can still combat Chariots. Besides, if your opponent manages to flank us with a rank-breaking Chariot, who says we're entitled to an almost certain (depending on the Chariot) escape clause? The idea is to avoid that situation. Besides, your Assassin can still challenge, kill the guy riding the Chariot (which would be why it's Unit Strength 5) and kill him, thus preserving your rank bonus. Keep in mind that an Assassin will never be in base contact with more than two or three models at a time which, combined with Always Strikes First, means that he needs to kill a very small amount of models in order to be untouchable by anything other than Spearmen. This becomes almost a ridiculously easy prospect when running Rune of Khaine and Manbane/Touch of Death (especially if the Banner of Murder is in the unit).
Attacks that can be randomized between the Hydra and the Handlers always hit the Hydra, so unless you're dealing with war machines or sniper effects (Hochland Longrifles, spells that target individual models) then your Hydra shouldn't be testing much for Panic.
To the dark house, dwelling of Irkalla's god,
To the house which those who enter cannot leave,
On the road where travelling is one way only,
To the house where those who enter are deprived of light
To the house which those who enter cannot leave,
On the road where travelling is one way only,
To the house where those who enter are deprived of light
SkaerKrow,
Sorry to sound negative, but in essence I disagree with most of your post here. I think the DE army is already very good and powerful and don't think the vast majority of these changes are necessary or would be beneficial.
That'd be a huge boost for khainite units. To be honest, I would rather that they be made to cause fear. The sight of blood clad warriors striding across the battlefield should cause fear.
I DO think the idea of an assassin realising that he is surrounded on all sides by a gazillion attackers may try to flee is a fair one
They are lone killers, taught to annihilate single enemies, not melee monsters. It makes sense that they would run away BUT bejeebus, the sight of one would be uber scary!
Why not just allow a Hag Queen general who isn't Hellebron? I think that would be better Or, if you really think we should be able to run all khainite armies at less than 2k, maybe give Death Hags an optional: +25 points, become an emergent Hag Queen. No extra advantage other that witch elves can be brought as core...
I agree, it'd be nice to discourage the use of black dragons as they are a bit overpowered. That said, the 30 point increase is not going to deter most players who take them, as they will just sacrifice other models elsewhere, creating EVEN SLIMMER dragon/captain scarlet armies
("kill the dragon, save the world"
That would make these guys broken imo. You'd need to increase their points cost to boot or scale back some of their other options.
They're already good for their points. This doesn't seem necessary.
Disagree with both. BG do have definitive weaknesses (5+ basic save only), as do harpies (no hatred, low leadership, cannot use other's leadership. No need to points adjust imo.
That would make for imbalanced units. Sorry, but it would.
WS5, hatred, S6 and ASF (who's not going to take the SHG here really?). That would cut apart even a hardened unit of chaos chosen or chaos knights with no problems.
Again, this would cause a broken unit. Same reasons as above, except to do with millions of poision attacks with ASF.
Both fair points.
Mostly these just seem to be minor points adjustments (all in our favour I might add...), some of which are fair I guess, some of which are less so.
One point I would like to make is that GW does the RIGHT thing by deliberately making some units and items better priced than others. This rewards vigilant army builders by enabling them to get the edge on their opponents by spending the time needed to work out which units and items are best value and which are terrible value. If you make all units and items exactly balanced then the game becomes dull.
I'm starting to sense a "lets make Khainite units rock" theme here. Bear in mind that you're now giving a character an item that would - with your other changes - give ITP on top of its other abilities for 9-11 points (as HA costs 4 to 6 points normally).
Most people object to the ability not its range in my experience. You give it to your hardest unit, keep your hydra next to it and minutes later cries of "cheese" can be heard all across the gaming room. This won't change much imo.
Re: the pendant. This would either make it too weak or too strong. It would still be broken when used with AoES (so much so that the use of this combo would soar) but would then be feeble when put on dreadlords etc without it.
I agree with the Gem of Nightmares change.
The Guiding eye suggestion seems broken to me. You give it to a hero in a unit of 20 RxBs on a hill and suddenly you have not 40 shots, rerolling all misses. If the worst happens and you roll a 1, you're hero survives and you can keep on doing it. That'd be broken for sure.
Hydra's Teeth. Still looks to me like a funny but basically unusable item, even with the proposed changes. I guess its okay though.
Deathmask: Would make the DE army even more sick against Beastmen and O&G armies than it is already. Not convinced it should be so cheap.
Blackstaff: That would mean a DE lvl 2 sorceress could use 6-10 power dice in a single magic phase:
2 for her + 2 for the army. 4 total possible
She uses 1 or 2 to cast PoD: Left with 2 to 3 possible dice
The spell gives her 2 to 4 extra dice. That's back up to 4 to 7 possible.
She then uses the Blackstaff and gets another 2 to 4 dice. That's 6 to 11 possible dice. Suddenly she can cast spells like black horror with ease.
Yes, I know she only has 2 spells, so some of the extra dice would be a risk. But it still seems better at 55 points imo.
Yes, the tweak to Banner of Cold Blood would be good.
So essentially the outcome of this would be to make Khainite units incredible and non-khainite units feeble? You would replace Black Guard as a credible choice with executioners and witch elves. No one would take BG anymore (14 points, no ASF potential ) because, well, why would you when you could take Execs (11 points, can be given ASF).
The ability also looks too complex. If you roll a 1, then you roll another dice. If you roll a one on that dice then you lose a wound. That's a lot of extra work in an already dice heavy combat
That would certainly make this banner used more.
With none of your other changes, I'd agree to this as a good idea, but if we include the other enhancements you're suggesting, we're back in the territory of:
13 Executioners at 11 points each, now with ITP = 143 points
Full command + Tullaris (with his two wounds) = 93 points
Standard of HG = 35 points.
BSB DH with Dread banner = 165 points
So, for 435 points you have a unit with WS5, S6 unit that has ITP, causes terror and has ASF, not to mention includes a champion with 2 wounds who rerolls wounds and causes D3 combat resolution for each wound (or is it actual wounds? I forget...).
That's definitely broken. Why would anyone take a unit of BG now?
More upgrades to the Temple of Khaine, making their champions and units better basically. I don't think its needed - yeah, it'd be nice if most of the gifts were cheaper, but this would just create yet more brokeness. I agree with the rune of khaine shift I guess, but its unnecessary (I don't think it'd change much either, most of my assassins take just RoK currently, and even if I wanted to take manbane with it, I still could :/ )
I think that dominion would be a bit broken, as it would make it far too easy for our "win if you charge, lose if you don't" units to get the charge. I'd also miss bladewind, which is a fun if not particularly effective spell (unless used for killing rats and gobbos)
Blackhorror - I guess the change would be okay, but it's a minor tweak that wouldn;'t change much.
Overall, I think the majority of these changes would have several effects:
1) make khainite units overused and possibly broken
2) make the DE army as a whole too cheap and broken
3) create a whole host of new imbalances and broken item combos that haven't been considered.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of what you are doing and don;t mean to sound negative At the very least it's lots of food for thought and hopefully at the very least my response can act as a devil's advocate
Sorry to sound negative, but in essence I disagree with most of your post here. I think the DE army is already very good and powerful and don't think the vast majority of these changes are necessary or would be beneficial.
Khainite
Add the following: Khainite characters and units are Immune to Panic.
That'd be a huge boost for khainite units. To be honest, I would rather that they be made to cause fear. The sight of blood clad warriors striding across the battlefield should cause fear.
I DO think the idea of an assassin realising that he is surrounded on all sides by a gazillion attackers may try to flee is a fair one
They are lone killers, taught to annihilate single enemies, not melee monsters. It makes sense that they would run away BUT bejeebus, the sight of one would be uber scary!Death Hag
Add the following: If a Death Hag is your army general then all Witch Elf and Executioner units of at least 10 models count as Core, while all Black Ark Corsair and Dark Rider units count as Special.
Why not just allow a Hag Queen general who isn't Hellebron? I think that would be better
Or, if you really think we should be able to run all khainite armies at less than 2k, maybe give Death Hags an optional: +25 points, become an emergent Hag Queen. No extra advantage other that witch elves can be brought as core...Black Dragon
Change points cost to 350.
I agree, it'd be nice to discourage the use of black dragons as they are a bit overpowered. That said, the 30 point increase is not going to deter most players who take them, as they will just sacrifice other models elsewhere, creating EVEN SLIMMER dragon/captain scarlet armies
("kill the dragon, save the world"Black Ark Corsairs
Change Weapon Skill rating to 5.
That would make these guys broken imo. You'd need to increase their points cost to boot or scale back some of their other options.
Dark Riders
Change cost of Shield option to Free.
They're already good for their points. This doesn't seem necessary.
Harpies
Change cost of Harpies to 12 points per model.
Black Guard
Change cost of Black Guard to 14 points per model.
Disagree with both. BG do have definitive weaknesses (5+ basic save only), as do harpies (no hatred, low leadership, cannot use other's leadership. No need to points adjust imo.
Har Ganeth Executioners
Change cost of Har Ganeth Executioners to 11 points per model. Change Magic Banner points limit to 50.
Tullaris of Har Ganeth
Change cost of Tullaris to 75 points. Change Wounds rating to 2.
That would make for imbalanced units. Sorry, but it would.
WS5, hatred, S6 and ASF (who's not going to take the SHG here really?). That would cut apart even a hardened unit of chaos chosen or chaos knights with no problems.
Witch Elves
Change Magic Banner points limit to 50.
Again, this would cause a broken unit. Same reasons as above, except to do with millions of poision attacks with ASF.
Shades
Change Shade unit size to 5-12.
War Hydra
Change War Hydra Attacks rating to 6, change cost of War Hydra to 225 points.
Both fair points.
Dagger of Hotek
Change cost of Dagger of Hotek to 20 points.
Heartseeker
Change cost of Heartseeker to 25 points.
Web of Shadows
Change cost of Web of Shadows to 25 points.
Executioner’s Axe
Change cost of Executioner’s Axe to 70 points.
Mostly these just seem to be minor points adjustments (all in our favour I might add...), some of which are fair I guess, some of which are less so.
One point I would like to make is that GW does the RIGHT thing by deliberately making some units and items better priced than others. This rewards vigilant army builders by enabling them to get the edge on their opponents by spending the time needed to work out which units and items are best value and which are terrible value. If you make all units and items exactly balanced then the game becomes dull.
Blood Armor
Delete existing rules entry, replace with the following: Models on foot only. Heavy Armor. The wearer of Blood Armor gains the Khainite rule. This does not allow them to take Temple of Khaine items.
I'm starting to sense a "lets make Khainite units rock" theme here. Bear in mind that you're now giving a character an item that would - with your other changes - give ITP on top of its other abilities for 9-11 points (as HA costs 4 to 6 points normally).
Ring of Hotek
Change area of effect to 6”.
Most people object to the ability not its range in my experience. You give it to your hardest unit, keep your hydra next to it and minutes later cries of "cheese" can be heard all across the gaming room. This won't change much imo.
Pendant of Khaeleth
Add the following line to the entry: Characters using the Pendant of Khaeleth may not take Armor Saves against wounds.
Gem of Nightmares
Change cost of Gem of Nightmares to 20 points. Add the following line to the entry: If the user already causes Fear, they cause Terror for the duration of the turn instead.
The Guiding Eye
Delete existing rules entry, replace with the following: Use after the bearer or their unit rolls to hit with a shooting attack, you may re-roll all misses. After using the Guiding Eye roll D6, on a result of 1 the bearer suffers a wound with no Armor Saves allowed. The Guiding Eye cannot be used to re-roll misses from a War Machine.
Re: the pendant. This would either make it too weak or too strong. It would still be broken when used with AoES (so much so that the use of this combo would soar) but would then be feeble when put on dreadlords etc without it.
I agree with the Gem of Nightmares change.
The Guiding eye suggestion seems broken to me. You give it to a hero in a unit of 20 RxBs on a hill and suddenly you have not 40 shots, rerolling all misses. If the worst happens and you roll a 1, you're hero survives and you can keep on doing it. That'd be broken for sure.
Hydra’s Teeth
Delete this entire entry, replace with the following: Hydra’s Teeth (Magic Weapon) 30 points
Thrown Weapon, Range 12”, Multiple Shot x2
Each hit inflicts D6 S2 wounds on the target unit.
Death Mask
Change cost of Death Mask to 35 points.
Black Staff
Change cost of Black Staff to 50 points.
Banner of Cold Blood
Delete existing rules entry, replace with the following: One Use Only. Use before making a Leadership Test. Until the end of the turn the unit may roll 3D6 for all Leadership tests and discard the highest D6 result rolled.
Hydra's Teeth. Still looks to me like a funny but basically unusable item, even with the proposed changes. I guess its okay though.
Deathmask: Would make the DE army even more sick against Beastmen and O&G armies than it is already. Not convinced it should be so cheap.
Blackstaff: That would mean a DE lvl 2 sorceress could use 6-10 power dice in a single magic phase:
2 for her + 2 for the army. 4 total possible
She uses 1 or 2 to cast PoD: Left with 2 to 3 possible dice
The spell gives her 2 to 4 extra dice. That's back up to 4 to 7 possible.
She then uses the Blackstaff and gets another 2 to 4 dice. That's 6 to 11 possible dice. Suddenly she can cast spells like black horror with ease.
Yes, I know she only has 2 spells, so some of the extra dice would be a risk. But it still seems better at 55 points imo.
Yes, the tweak to Banner of Cold Blood would be good.
Standard of Hag Graef
Delete this entire entry.
Insert the following: Standard of Har Ganeth (Magic Banner) 35 points
Khainites Only
All Khainites in the bearer’s unit gain the Always Strikes First rule. For each roll of 1 to hit (after re-rolls), roll a further D6. On a further result of 1 the unit suffers 1 wound with no Armor Saves allowed, distributed as shooting. Wounds inflicted on the bearer’s unit by the Standard of Har Ganeth do apply towards their opponent’s Combat Resolution score.
So essentially the outcome of this would be to make Khainite units incredible and non-khainite units feeble? You would replace Black Guard as a credible choice with executioners and witch elves. No one would take BG anymore (14 points, no ASF potential ) because, well, why would you when you could take Execs (11 points, can be given ASF).
The ability also looks too complex. If you roll a 1, then you roll another dice. If you roll a one on that dice then you lose a wound. That's a lot of extra work in an already dice heavy combat
Dread Banner
Change cost of Dread Banner to 50 points. Add the following line to the entry: If the unit already causes Fear, it causes Terror instead.
That would certainly make this banner used more.
With none of your other changes, I'd agree to this as a good idea, but if we include the other enhancements you're suggesting, we're back in the territory of:
13 Executioners at 11 points each, now with ITP = 143 points
Full command + Tullaris (with his two wounds) = 93 points
Standard of HG = 35 points.
BSB DH with Dread banner = 165 points
So, for 435 points you have a unit with WS5, S6 unit that has ITP, causes terror and has ASF, not to mention includes a champion with 2 wounds who rerolls wounds and causes D3 combat resolution for each wound (or is it actual wounds? I forget...).
That's definitely broken. Why would anyone take a unit of BG now?
Cry of War
Change cost of Cry of War to 5 points.
Black Lotus
Change cost of Black Lotus to 15 points.
Witchbrew
Change cost of Witchbrew to 20 points.
Rune of Khaine
Change cost of Rune of Khaine to 35 points.
Dance of Doom
Change cost of Dance of Doom to 25 points.
Venom Sword
Change cost of Venom Sword to 50 points.
More upgrades to the Temple of Khaine, making their champions and units better basically. I don't think its needed - yeah, it'd be nice if most of the gifts were cheaper, but this would just create yet more brokeness. I agree with the rune of khaine shift I guess, but its unnecessary (I don't think it'd change much either, most of my assassins take just RoK currently, and even if I wanted to take manbane with it, I still could :/ )
Bladewind
Delete this entire entry.
Insert the following: #4 Dominion (9+)
Choose a target within 12” and Line of Sight of the caster. If the spell is successfully cast, the caster may choose to prevent one of the following: the movement of the target unit (including fleeing voluntarily from a charge), any shooting attacks from the target unit (including Stand and Shoot responses) or any spells being cast by Wizards in the target unit. The effect of this spell lasts until the beginning of the caster’s next turn. Units under the effect of Dominion may still flee if compelled to do so due to Psychology or Break Tests.
Black Horror
Change the casting value of this spell to 12+.
I think that dominion would be a bit broken, as it would make it far too easy for our "win if you charge, lose if you don't" units to get the charge. I'd also miss bladewind, which is a fun if not particularly effective spell (unless used for killing rats and gobbos)
Blackhorror - I guess the change would be okay, but it's a minor tweak that wouldn;'t change much.
Overall, I think the majority of these changes would have several effects:
1) make khainite units overused and possibly broken
2) make the DE army as a whole too cheap and broken
3) create a whole host of new imbalances and broken item combos that haven't been considered.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of what you are doing and don;t mean to sound negative
At the very least it's lots of food for thought and hopefully at the very least my response can act as a devil's advocate -
The skaerkrow
- Noble
- Posts: 456
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:35 am
deathknight27: Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post in such a detailed fashion.
I'd like to point out that Khainites become Immune to Panic, not Psychology. It's actually a very minor boost.
I...really can't say that I agree with your assessment of the changes to the army. Khainites wouldn't become overpowered by any stretch of the imagination, they'd just possess some decent synergy with one another and actually have a practical use on the tabletop (something that they struggle with now). The function of the Standard of Har Ganeth is actually a mirror of the Skaven Jezzail Team's mechanic for hitting themselves (with less dice rolling I might add, as the Jezzail Teams then have to roll to wound themselves), so it's not as unusual as it seems.
Edit: Actually, re-reading your replies, DK, I wonder if you haven't misread some things or mistaken some of our 6th Edition rules for the current ones (Harpies can use the General's Leadership now, for example). You also seem to have missed the reduction in power of Assassins, which flies in the face of the accusation that my intent was to bolster Khainite units in a disproportionate fashion. Indeed, my intent has always been to create better internal balance within the Dark Elf book, which it currently lacks. You also seem to be throwing around "broken" in relation to a lot of pedestrian options/changes (for example, Weapon Skill 5 Corsairs).
Again, very appreciative of the reply...I'm just a bit sketchy on its contents.
I'd like to point out that Khainites become Immune to Panic, not Psychology. It's actually a very minor boost.
I...really can't say that I agree with your assessment of the changes to the army. Khainites wouldn't become overpowered by any stretch of the imagination, they'd just possess some decent synergy with one another and actually have a practical use on the tabletop (something that they struggle with now). The function of the Standard of Har Ganeth is actually a mirror of the Skaven Jezzail Team's mechanic for hitting themselves (with less dice rolling I might add, as the Jezzail Teams then have to roll to wound themselves), so it's not as unusual as it seems.
Edit: Actually, re-reading your replies, DK, I wonder if you haven't misread some things or mistaken some of our 6th Edition rules for the current ones (Harpies can use the General's Leadership now, for example). You also seem to have missed the reduction in power of Assassins, which flies in the face of the accusation that my intent was to bolster Khainite units in a disproportionate fashion. Indeed, my intent has always been to create better internal balance within the Dark Elf book, which it currently lacks. You also seem to be throwing around "broken" in relation to a lot of pedestrian options/changes (for example, Weapon Skill 5 Corsairs).
Again, very appreciative of the reply...I'm just a bit sketchy on its contents.
Last edited by The skaerkrow on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To the dark house, dwelling of Irkalla's god,
To the house which those who enter cannot leave,
On the road where travelling is one way only,
To the house where those who enter are deprived of light
To the house which those who enter cannot leave,
On the road where travelling is one way only,
To the house where those who enter are deprived of light
And when the pendant of khealith is removed from play, i expect some other ward save. And also for less then 45 points. Not to mention the black ridiculous amulat. All in all. We are stuck for a while with our stupid items like the pendant, Ring of hotec, banner of hag greaf, hydra. Its still some years for the book get redone. And when it gets redone. Its no guarantee that those items will be removed or changed.
So deal with those worhtless items, and when one thinks they are too crappy then don't take them at all.
So deal with those worhtless items, and when one thinks they are too crappy then don't take them at all.
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Dread_knight666
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So deal with those worhtless items, and when one thinks they are too crappy then don't take them at all.
Who said anything was "crappy" or "stupid"? This entire thread is a balancing act, it's just banter over how are book "could" be adjusted to balance the power level a little. I am interested in seeing your regular list zenith, because according to you everything in the book is crap... Witch Elves, Executioners, Reaper Bolt Throwers, War Hydra, Ring of Hotek, Pendant of Kaleth, am I missing anything?
Back on topic
Black Ark Corsairs
Change Weapon Skill rating to 5
Not much point IMO. People argue they aren't good enough for ten points, but I think they are well worth. With hatred I don't think the +1 WS would make much difference any way.
Shades
Change Shade unit size to 5-12.
Agreed. Fluff wise shades exist in small clans and on the battle field they are meant to be deployed in small scouting parties, not huge horde units...
Harpies
A little too cheap at their current price point, being a disposable flying Core unit.
A meager point increase would basically have no effect and in my own personal army would cost me 10 points. You said it yourself as well, they are disposable, so they can't cost to much. Since they have a dismal Ld and don't benefit from hatred or blessings, they do have a handicap.
Black Guard
While I believe that Black Guard (without the Standard of Hag Graef) are overrated, increasing their cost by a point is easier than trying to peel away one of their special rules.
I agree they are under priced, but I disagree they are overrated. They are indeed some top tier elven infantry, but they are terribly under priced. Why do we pay 16 points for a shade but 13 for a BG? They really seem under priced when compared to phoenix guard, probably the most comparable unit.
Black Guard
While I believe that Black Guard (without the Standard of Hag Graef) are overrated, increasing their cost by a point is easier than trying to peel away one of their special rules.
I agree they are under priced, but I disagree they are overrated. They are indeed some top tier elven infantry, but they are terribly under priced. Why do we pay 16 points for a shade but 13 for a BG? They really seem under priced when compared to phoenix guard, probably the most comparable unit.[/quote]
That is because phoenix guard are terribly overpriced. Yes a 4+ ward save makes all the difference.
But its still with all the HE elites, their too expensive.
I can agree with some, but certainly not all of those changes. Very interesting ideas though.
I would like to propose following options to beef Khainite units instead:
- Dagger of Hotek: make it a Gift of Khaine with Magic Weapon property. Do not decrease points cost as the obvious Rune Of Khaine/Dagger of Hotek option would be just another "too much" combo.
- Death Hag: Upgrade to level 1 wizard for +25 points (+35?). She can then use Arcane items. They have access to Lore Of Khaine, which should be a lore with no damage spells but buff spells. They should have the following rule:
Sect Enmity: Death Hags and sorceress cannot appear in the same army, as they refuse to fight side by side, rather seeing each other go to their demise.
Makes for slightly more expensive scroll caddies, and 4 possible levels of magic in 2000+ points games, they're sorceresses but frenzied.
I would like to propose following options to beef Khainite units instead:
- Dagger of Hotek: make it a Gift of Khaine with Magic Weapon property. Do not decrease points cost as the obvious Rune Of Khaine/Dagger of Hotek option would be just another "too much" combo.
- Death Hag: Upgrade to level 1 wizard for +25 points (+35?). She can then use Arcane items. They have access to Lore Of Khaine, which should be a lore with no damage spells but buff spells. They should have the following rule:
Sect Enmity: Death Hags and sorceress cannot appear in the same army, as they refuse to fight side by side, rather seeing each other go to their demise.
Makes for slightly more expensive scroll caddies, and 4 possible levels of magic in 2000+ points games, they're sorceresses but frenzied.
Hi Skaercrow,
Thanks for the replies and sorry if I came across badly. I do like the idea of what you are doing, just have difficulties with some of the changes themselves...
Fair enough, I misread that. I still think that giving them fear would be more apt
I think that Khainite units at the moment are indeed a bit weak, but I am concerned that the suggested changes go too far the other way.
E.g. Executioners are very good for their points currently IMO, it's just the fact that they can't take a decent banner or magic items that hold them back. No need to make them just 11 points, that's really cheap (particularly as your other changes mean they can take magic items and banners again).
It's possible I made a couple of errors when responding (it was a long and detailed list and I'm typing at work
) but the gist of my comments remains valid.
I did notice the assassin change (I thought I had commented on it, but guess I didn't...) but don't actually think it will have much of an impact on the game (we'll see a lot of rune of khaine / black lotus combos rather than rune of khaine / manbane combos). Actually, no ,one major change would be to lose rending star / manbane assasins. That would be a really big shame, as IMO its a non broken but very fun model to use.
You're right that I've used the word 'broken' probably too much, for which I apologise. I do think though that a lot of the changes are unnecessary and have negative rather than positive balancing connotations.
I think my overall feeling was that, aside from a few changes where you've made some of the current mainstream units very undesirable, you've mostly gone through the army and improved or reduced the cost of a wide range of our units, items and abilities. I don't think that the DE army needs that at all.
If anything, the best way to 'rebalance' the army list would be to focus mostly on making existing 'hot choices' worse and make zero changes to the existing less desirable choices. But again, I think DEs are a strong army at the moment and don't really need a patch.
And yes, I will concede that you've suggested several changes to reduce a few units, but these seem few in number and mostly just geared at (or have the unintentional result of) making current popular choices infeasible, replacing them with underpriced and overpowered khainite alternatives.
For example, I think that very few people would take a unit of Black Guard if they cost 14 points per model and had no ASF capability, especially if you could get executioners (with the same elite WS, +2 strength, same armour save and killing blow) for 3 points less per model and with the ability to have ASF. Yes, BG would still retain some advantages (ITP rather than immune to panic, stubborn and warrior elite) but these advantages would be wafer thin (e.g. a dreadlord leading the execs in his blood armour could take pearl of infinite bleakness and a cauldron could make the execs stubborn). If you're relying on warrior elite's second round re-rolls then you're not using the unit right, as DE elite infantry should really be winning in the first round of combat, not foot-slogging it with chaos warriors.
Thanks for the replies and sorry if I came across badly. I do like the idea of what you are doing, just have difficulties with some of the changes themselves...
I'd like to point out that Khainites become Immune to Panic , not Psychology. It's actually a very minor boost.
Fair enough, I misread that. I still think that giving them fear would be more apt
I think that Khainite units at the moment are indeed a bit weak, but I am concerned that the suggested changes go too far the other way.
E.g. Executioners are very good for their points currently IMO, it's just the fact that they can't take a decent banner or magic items that hold them back. No need to make them just 11 points, that's really cheap (particularly as your other changes mean they can take magic items and banners again).
It's possible I made a couple of errors when responding (it was a long and detailed list and I'm typing at work
) but the gist of my comments remains valid.
I did notice the assassin change (I thought I had commented on it, but guess I didn't...) but don't actually think it will have much of an impact on the game (we'll see a lot of rune of khaine / black lotus combos rather than rune of khaine / manbane combos). Actually, no ,one major change would be to lose rending star / manbane assasins. That would be a really big shame, as IMO its a non broken but very fun model to use.
You're right that I've used the word 'broken' probably too much, for which I apologise. I do think though that a lot of the changes are unnecessary and have negative rather than positive balancing connotations.
I think my overall feeling was that, aside from a few changes where you've made some of the current mainstream units very undesirable, you've mostly gone through the army and improved or reduced the cost of a wide range of our units, items and abilities. I don't think that the DE army needs that at all.
If anything, the best way to 'rebalance' the army list would be to focus mostly on making existing 'hot choices' worse and make zero changes to the existing less desirable choices. But again, I think DEs are a strong army at the moment and don't really need a patch.
And yes, I will concede that you've suggested several changes to reduce a few units, but these seem few in number and mostly just geared at (or have the unintentional result of) making current popular choices infeasible, replacing them with underpriced and overpowered khainite alternatives.
For example, I think that very few people would take a unit of Black Guard if they cost 14 points per model and had no ASF capability, especially if you could get executioners (with the same elite WS, +2 strength, same armour save and killing blow) for 3 points less per model and with the ability to have ASF. Yes, BG would still retain some advantages (ITP rather than immune to panic, stubborn and warrior elite) but these advantages would be wafer thin (e.g. a dreadlord leading the execs in his blood armour could take pearl of infinite bleakness and a cauldron could make the execs stubborn). If you're relying on warrior elite's second round re-rolls then you're not using the unit right, as DE elite infantry should really be winning in the first round of combat, not foot-slogging it with chaos warriors.
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